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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I am editing my post because I figured some stuff out, but about Sioul Dobermans and Nevar Dobermans. Does anyone know what their connection is with each other?

They seem to work together but they are not located in the same area? I thought Sioul is in Atlantic region, but Nevar is in Ontario.
 

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i got the answer to their connection now, but i have another question about another breeder.
anyone hear of kin doberman and do they ship to western canada? i want a doberman with cropped ears so i am looking in ontario, but i live in western canada. many ontario breeders say they only do pickup but i haven't seen any info about this with kin dobermans in toronto. are they trustworthy? their site is kinda weird because they don't talk about their dogs or themselves. they just give a lot of doberman info. it kind of looks scammy, but i want to see what others think.
 

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just want to give some more info why it looks like a scam to me:
-they say they give 5 year genetic health guarantee, sounds too good to be true since most other breeders offer 2 years.
-their puppy package comes with some flashy stuff that would add unnecessary cost, like "premium buffalo leather" collar and leash, and "premium" crate. i feel i would rather buy the same items elsewhere myself than have them resell it to me
-zero info on their dogs and health. they just say everything is tested for and list the tests. weirdly secretive.
-they are supposedly canadian but use american english. not a big deal but kind of weird.
-no info about them online. they look like new breeders because googling turns up nothing
 

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Oh where is Artemis when you need her.
This Doberman Talk member knows a lot of Canadian breeders.
Maybe she will chime in soon…
 

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just want to give some more info why it looks like a scam to me:
-they say they give 5 year genetic health guarantee, sounds too good to be true since most other breeders offer 2 years.
-their puppy package comes with some flashy stuff that would add unnecessary cost, like "premium buffalo leather" collar and leash, and "premium" crate. i feel i would rather buy the same items elsewhere myself than have them resell it to me
-zero info on their dogs and health. they just say everything is tested for and list the tests. weirdly secretive.
-they are supposedly canadian but use american english. not a big deal but kind of weird.
-no info about them online. they look like new breeders because googling turns up nothing
I don't think this is a "scam."

This breeder is a member of the National Breed Club of Canada. They show and title their dogs.

Different breeders have different health guarantees. I've seen breeders that are reputable that give anything from basically nothing in terms of a guarantee on health, to lifelong... honestly, in this breed, what I look for is not so much a "guarantee" as a breeder that is there to support you. This simply isn't a healthy breed. It's important to research the health of the pedigree of any puppy you buy. That's the first thing in doing your due diligence, but secondly, it's incredibly important to understand that no matter what, no breeder can really guarantee health. Mother Nature can simply really suck sometimes, despite the best efforts of any breeder. I have no idea what is in this particular breeder's health guarantee, but that's my take on it.

The way I read it, the things they are sending a puppy home with (crate, collar and leash), are simply trying to set up new owners for success. I wouldn't really expect it to increase the puppy price much nor give it too much thought, but that's me.

If you're interested in their dogs/pedigrees, why not contact them and talk to them? Most new show breeders have a mentor to guide them.
 

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I don't think you looked very far to be honest if google turned up nothing. Kin Doberman is a breeder in good standing with the Doberman Pinscher Club of Canada and is on the breeder directory of the DPCC. Obviously that doesn't guarantee everything, and buyers are always advised to do their due diligence however if anyone finds a breeder on the directory (or a member) in breach of the Code of Ethics and club rules, you can report them.

5 year genetic health guarantee I have seen from other, highly reputable, established doberman breeders. The breeders who offer this usually have confidence in their breeding decisions and aware of the issues that arise in their lines and when. One breeder I know with a 5 year guarantee has only had to honour it twice in over 20-30 years of breeding. Whether that's hubris or generous depends on how you look at it but as MC has said it varies a lot.

The premium puppy pack is simply because some breeders are a little more "gaga" than others. Do not forget that these puppies are our babies. We bring them into the world, sometimes we help save their lives, we nourish them, raise them, work with them until they're ready to go. We want what is best for them. I had custom, individually made to order biothane collar + leash sets from a local collar maker in Ontario, made for my last litter before they left. I had the spare change and I thought it was a nice gesture for the owners not to have to worry about buying a proper collar until the pups were big enough that they wouldn't need to constantly switch up. I also included little things I felt would help set them up on the right foot. We understand buying a well bred pup is an investment and we don't necessarily want people skimping on other things to afford their dog. The puppy packs vary in extravagance based on the breeder's budget, it rarely affects or motivates pricing decisions. The fact they include a crate is also really great as it ensures the owner has no excuse not to be prepared. I noticed they also include a 4 generation pedigree from the CKC which is not actually included with the registration and is an extra cost (and is one up from their basic 3 generation pedigree).

It seems to me they want to get their puppies off on the right start.

**
As to your earlier question about Sioul and Nevar, Denise was in Ontario last weekend. She drives huge distances to help Michelle and Michelle often goes to NB as well. Denise is/was Michelle's mentor and both of Michelle's dogs were bred or co-bred by Denise. It is absolutely possible to have co-breeders and/or mentor/mentees far away. My mentor was in Vermont and just moved to Florida (I'm in Quebec).

Hope this helps clear up some things.
 

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Sorry to just jump in, but I noticed that Kin Dobermans seemed to have started breeding using dogs from Ultrasound Kennels. Does anyone have more info about this Ultrasound breeder? They have been breeding a long time, but I don't see much discussion about them.
 

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I went poking around in DobeQuest because I've been in Dobes for a long time and had never even heard of Ultrasound--and I usually at least recognize the names of breeders in Canada and North and South America if they are producing show dogs. Interesting--"U" is not a common first initial for dogs or kennels and virtually all the dogs listed in DobeQuest are from Ultrasound (or at least carry the kennel name). I didn't go through all of the dogs because I was really looking for where the line started--looks like they've been breeding since 1995 (at least) I found quite a few Canadian champions and if you go far enough back the breeding ends up with known kennells and known dogs.

My guess is that there isn't much discussion about them because it kind of looks like the dogs may be shown in Canada (and far enough back that at least some of the dogs would have been able to get their Canadian championships under the old rule where they could collect points one at a time for the required number and enough judges. And sometime even now with the requirement for a "major" so that doesn't happen any more some dogs do get a championship with virtually no competition.) so unlike some of the Canadian kennels where the kennel names are familiar it's because the dogs come to the states to compete and win and end up with sires being used on AKC dogs as well as CKC dogs.

Beyond that I know nothing about them and as far as I know I've never seen one.

dobebug
 

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Ultrasound have been around for quite some time. Ron McCartney started in Dobermans in the 70s if I'm not mistaken and as I recall was already working with cardiologists at Guelph University in the 80s with concerns to heart issues.
I'm not intimately familiar with his program though.
He's got more information on his website.
 

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Ultrasound have been around for quite some time. Ron McCartney started in Dobermans in the 70s if I'm not mistaken and as I recall was already working with cardiologists at Guelph University in the 80s with concerns to heart issues.
I'm not intimately familiar with his program though.
He's got more information on his website.
Thanks, Artemis--that article you linked kind of explains why I missed him. Looks like he started seriously breeding and then showing after I was out of the PNW (1967 in California by then and not showing in Canada again until I came back in 1993)

And then I didn't get into the business of ultrasounding dogs via the Guelph program until 1995.
 

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Thanks, Artemis--that article you linked kind of explains why I missed him. Looks like he started seriously breeding and then showing after I was out of the PNW (1967 in California by then and not showing in Canada again until I came back in 1993)

And then I didn't get into the business of ultrasounding dogs via the Guelph program until 1995.
No problem, bug! As a matter of fact I think someone that works with him was attending the show I was at this weekend, there was a couple with a young black male (good looking fellow), and when I walked by their set up a little later, I saw a silver tack box with "Ultrasound Kennels" written out on it. Didn't get a chance to talk/ask them.

(This weekend was just punishingly hot and humid so people tended to find shade/fans and stay put until their turn in the ring).
 
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Also being in Western Canada I should warn to be prepared for some judging people over a cropped/docked Dobie. Personally I did have the option and have no preference I decided to leave him all natural since he will not be going to shows and neutering down the road. Probably be in your contract your new pup will be required to have it done as well.

Just food for thought, and my guy is frikk'n gorgeous anyway, guessing he will be over 100lb. currently at 3.5 months.

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@Artemis, do you breed on a regular basis?
Rather infrequently. I had my first litter last year and planning a second one for this coming fall/winter, but the next one after that likely won't be until 2023 at the absolute earliest and ideally not before 2024. I do have two keepers one on co-own and one with me that are prospects so I might breed a tad more when it is their time provided they are health tested and titled the way I want. That being said my program is not for everyone.
 

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Rather infrequently. I had my first litter last year and planning a second one for this coming fall/winter, but the next one after that likely won't be until 2023 at the absolute earliest and ideally not before 2024. I do have two keepers one on co-own and one with me that are prospects so I might breed a tad more when it is their time provided they are health tested and titled the way I want. That being said my program is not for everyone.
I was asking for a friend who just moved from Canada but should return within the next few years. I was curious about what you breed for, but I also thought you could possibly assist him. He may get a Doberman before he returns, but that is still up in the air. As my focus is not Canada or even North America, I am limited in my ability to help him. My focus has been primarily in South America and the SA lines.
 

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I was asking for a friend who just moved from Canada but should return within the next few years. I was curious about what you breed for, but I also thought you could possibly assist him. He may get a Doberman before he returns, but that is still up in the air. As my focus is not Canada or even North America, I am limited in my ability to help him. My focus has been primarily in South America and the SA lines.
I am still in the very early stages of my program, I've been involved with the breed for going on 7-8 years now but I've only bred my first litter last year. My foundation female is from South/North American (US and Canada) lines. My next litter with her will be to a 100% european working line male. For her first litter however I bred to a male who is a Trotyl de Black Shadow son, so heavy South American influence because Nadia is herself a Trotyl great grand daughter (and is linebred on Nello's Lex Luthor three times, twice through Inaqui, including the one time through Trotyl). I like the fire and the edge the South American dogs have, my primary activity is IGP and my long term goal is to outcross and backcross between lines to help with diversity in the hopes of improving/preserving good health and longevity, and find a balance between conformationally correct dogs and correct working ability with correct temperament.

While I think there should be a spectrum in every breed and I don't think that every puppy born should be a top 20 candidate and be a world championship IGP competitor, I still do think fundamentally that if a person decides to go out and get a doberman they should expect certain key characteristics that define the doberman breed. So even if a breeder chooses to focus on producing those MBIS/MBISS Top 20 dogs, or even if a breeder chooses to focus on producing that IGP3 FCI World Championship dog - or chase an as of yet un-earned PSA3... There are certain things imo that should be immutable in the breed.

A doberman should be athletic and thus structurally sound and of course naturally active as he relishes in his own athleticism. A doberman should be naturally protective and close to his people and thus willing to defend them if trained to do so. A doberman should be wonderfully intelligent, thus a quick learner and a versatile companion willing to at least "try" almost anything. A Doberman should want to engage with and work with their human, and be willing to do so more often than not. But since the Doberman is also a dog in the modern world he should be reliable and confident in public, and he should have that natural capacity to discern a threat from not, he should be fun and pleasant to live with in the house (rather than needing to be continuously kennelled aside from when working). A doberman should be attractive and pleasing to the eye with a certain presence, mostly through his intelligent and intense expression. In my view of what the doberman is and should be they are not for everyone.

I also think that right now breeders must continue to diligently focus on health and longevity, not just in health testing but in their breeding decisions (how they breed, whom they breed with, from which pedigrees and so on). It should be a priority along with temperament.

The concept of the "total doberman" is one I adhere to, but moreso than that I think the baseline for the breed should be that the doberman inherently is a total dog.

Forgive me for waxing a little poetic! But this is what I breed for. Health/longevity and temperament are my top priority after which my primary focus is IGP/working sports. Though I am proud to say my keeper from my first litter attended her first three show weekends recently and is two points from her championship. Her first win was a 5 point major awarded BOW beat out only by a special bitch, her second win, BOW again for another major beat out only by a special (and the judge very heavily considered her for BOB!) So correct structure and breeding to standard is important to me too :)

Only time will tell if I am successful in reaching my goals. Right now I'm happy with the first litter (16 months old now) but of course already thinking of where I will try to improve on the next generation.
 

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I am still in the very early stages of my program, I've been involved with the breed for going on 7-8 years now but I've only bred my first litter last year. My foundation female is from South/North American (US and Canada) lines. My next litter with her will be to a 100% european working line male. For her first litter however I bred to a male who is a Trotyl de Black Shadow son, so heavy South American influence because Nadia is herself a Trotyl great grand daughter (and is linebred on Nello's Lex Luthor three times, twice through Inaqui, including the one time through Trotyl). I like the fire and the edge the South American dogs have, my primary activity is IGP and my long term goal is to outcross and backcross between lines to help with diversity in the hopes of improving/preserving good health and longevity, and find a balance between conformationally correct dogs and correct working ability with correct temperament.

While I think there should be a spectrum in every breed and I don't think that every puppy born should be a top 20 candidate and be a world championship IGP competitor, I still do think fundamentally that if a person decides to go out and get a doberman they should expect certain key characteristics that define the doberman breed. So even if a breeder chooses to focus on producing those MBIS/MBISS Top 20 dogs, or even if a breeder chooses to focus on producing that IGP3 FCI World Championship dog - or chase an as of yet un-earned PSA3... There are certain things imo that should be immutable in the breed.

A doberman should be athletic and thus structurally sound and of course naturally active as he relishes in his own athleticism. A doberman should be naturally protective and close to his people and thus willing to defend them if trained to do so. A doberman should be wonderfully intelligent, thus a quick learner and a versatile companion willing to at least "try" almost anything. A Doberman should want to engage with and work with their human, and be willing to do so more often than not. But since the Doberman is also a dog in the modern world he should be reliable and confident in public, and he should have that natural capacity to discern a threat from not, he should be fun and pleasant to live with in the house (rather than needing to be continuously kennelled aside from when working). A doberman should be attractive and pleasing to the eye with a certain presence, mostly through his intelligent and intense expression. In my view of what the doberman is and should be they are not for everyone.

I also think that right now breeders must continue to diligently focus on health and longevity, not just in health testing but in their breeding decisions (how they breed, whom they breed with, from which pedigrees and so on). It should be a priority along with temperament.

The concept of the "total doberman" is one I adhere to, but moreso than that I think the baseline for the breed should be that the doberman inherently is a total dog.

Forgive me for waxing a little poetic! But this is what I breed for. Health/longevity and temperament are my top priority after which my primary focus is IGP/working sports. Though I am proud to say my keeper from my first litter attended her first three show weekends recently and is two points from her championship. Her first win was a 5 point major awarded BOW beat out only by a special bitch, her second win, BOW again for another major beat out only by a special (and the judge very heavily considered her for BOB!) So correct structure and breeding to standard is important to me too :)

Only time will tell if I am successful in reaching my goals. Right now I'm happy with the first litter (16 months old now) but of course already thinking of where I will try to improve on the next generation.
I loved what you wrote. I will probably give a longer reply tomorrow, but based on what you just said, you are a breeder I would make the trip to Canada to get a puppy from in the future.
 

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I am still in the very early stages of my program, I've been involved with the breed for going on 7-8 years now but I've only bred my first litter last year. My foundation female is from South/North American (US and Canada) lines. My next litter with her will be to a 100% european working line male. For her first litter however I bred to a male who is a Trotyl de Black Shadow son, so heavy South American influence because Nadia is herself a Trotyl great grand daughter (and is linebred on Nello's Lex Luthor three times, twice through Inaqui, including the one time through Trotyl). I like the fire and the edge the South American dogs have, my primary activity is IGP and my long term goal is to outcross and backcross between lines to help with diversity in the hopes of improving/preserving good health and longevity, and find a balance between conformationally correct dogs and correct working ability with correct temperament.

While I think there should be a spectrum in every breed and I don't think that every puppy born should be a top 20 candidate and be a world championship IGP competitor, I still do think fundamentally that if a person decides to go out and get a doberman they should expect certain key characteristics that define the doberman breed. So even if a breeder chooses to focus on producing those MBIS/MBISS Top 20 dogs, or even if a breeder chooses to focus on producing that IGP3 FCI World Championship dog - or chase an as of yet un-earned PSA3... There are certain things imo that should be immutable in the breed.

A doberman should be athletic and thus structurally sound and of course naturally active as he relishes in his own athleticism. A doberman should be naturally protective and close to his people and thus willing to defend them if trained to do so. A doberman should be wonderfully intelligent, thus a quick learner and a versatile companion willing to at least "try" almost anything. A Doberman should want to engage with and work with their human, and be willing to do so more often than not. But since the Doberman is also a dog in the modern world he should be reliable and confident in public, and he should have that natural capacity to discern a threat from not, he should be fun and pleasant to live with in the house (rather than needing to be continuously kennelled aside from when working). A doberman should be attractive and pleasing to the eye with a certain presence, mostly through his intelligent and intense expression. In my view of what the doberman is and should be they are not for everyone.

I also think that right now breeders must continue to diligently focus on health and longevity, not just in health testing but in their breeding decisions (how they breed, whom they breed with, from which pedigrees and so on). It should be a priority along with temperament.

The concept of the "total doberman" is one I adhere to, but moreso than that I think the baseline for the breed should be that the doberman inherently is a total dog.

Forgive me for waxing a little poetic! But this is what I breed for. Health/longevity and temperament are my top priority after which my primary focus is IGP/working sports. Though I am proud to say my keeper from my first litter attended her first three show weekends recently and is two points from her championship. Her first win was a 5 point major awarded BOW beat out only by a special bitch, her second win, BOW again for another major beat out only by a special (and the judge very heavily considered her for BOB!) So correct structure and breeding to standard is important to me too :)

Only time will tell if I am successful in reaching my goals. Right now I'm happy with the first litter (16 months old now) but of course already thinking of where I will try to improve on the next generation.
I have studied the SA Doberman to some extent. My question to you would be this: do you think that the SA Doberman is equally capable in the working sports (specifically IGP) as a Euro (whether show or working line)?

I had heard that Dobermans can be "whiny" dogs when it comes down to attention needs.

I also agree with you there. I think it is sad that dogs have been divided between "show" and "working" lines. The same is true for the German Shepherd (we have GSDs, and I have studied the lines somewhat). Although I prefer the working line in both conformation and ability for the GSD, I will admit that I have seen some with less than perfect conformation (particularly for the head). For the Doberman, I have always preferred the more refined look of the American Doberman. I don't care for the oversized appearance that seems to be "in" for European show lines now.

What I really liked about what you said is this: my focus, if I get the chance, will be IGP or simply protection training (as in a personal protection dog). However, I love conformation at heart and don't want to lose that when aiming for IGP. That is one of the definite reasons I was going for a SA Doberman; I have seen enough that had the working temperament that I thought the combination might just be possible there. If, and this is a big "if" due mainly to the problems with cropping and docking (which I prefer) of today's society, I were ever to breed. I would have the same basic goal in mind. Crossing the lines in an attempt to combine temperament, conformation, ability, and health in one line.

Congratulation on your keeper; do you have a picture of her?
Last thing;), do you have a website or kennel name yet?
 

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Personal Protection and IGP training are very different nowadays. (And I would say, fundamentally very different in their end goals). I do think the European working lines would remain overall the best choice if that's what you want to do, or go with working lines crossbred to North/South American show lines. They are generally more refined and smaller, similar enough to American lines that a novice recently mistook some pure working line (including a world championship competitor!) dogs for American dogs because their idea of European is the incorrect, out of standard hypertype East European exaggerations (which aren't reflective of all East European showlines either!)

I'm just starting out but for example Julie Stade from BJF working dogs has been at it for decades and produces dogs that title in the AKC show ring, while also producing dogs that are actively used as police K9s or titling on the IGP field (or the AKC performance/sport ring). She might be someone to look into because on top of it all she has a knack for breeding health and longevity. Treasure Seeker Dobermans in NC also has dual titled dogs and she varies between intercrossing Am showlines with working lines and doing pure working line breedings, though has been at it for less long than Julie.

There are a handful of others who do or have done the same in the past. It sounds like this is what you are looking for.

Forgot to say. You absolutely can check out my Facebook Page: Themiscyra Dobermans|Facebook
or my website Themiscyra Dobermans

I'm not the best at keeping them up to date I've got a bunch of photos I should probably upload.
 
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