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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey DT. Been awhile since my last (which turned into a fallout of breeder arguements and bias debates) hopefully this will be a lot more productive :)

Xena is a dream. Healthy, very loving, and a whole lot of puppy! (has already gone through a pair of boots, and found a way to get to the Ethernet and cable cord lol). She starts training in two weeks!! Hallelujah!

To the point:
Last Friday, got her ears cropped by Dr.Jezbera, and they look great! Last night she's was really rowdy, so I decided to take her on a real (but very brief) walk up my street (try to burn that energy on new smells and sounds). A lady came up to me, and began to question her ears. When asked, I usually say its the breed standard to crop the ears, and it looks great on the Dobie. But she then had a very opinionated response "Well is she a show dog?" (we all know here that Xena is not a candidate or ever will be a show dog) of course not!! She's my companion, my pet...and then more opinionated responses follow....

So my question is, how do you all take in the heat from others on having cropped ears? And how do you respond to it without being, rude. Lol I almost just wanted to tell this lady to mind her own and continue on her jog.

And please, by all means, how can I be correct on why the ears are cropped besides personal preference?

Thanks DT. Hope there's no hard feelings against me.
 

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Ear cropping is 100% personal preference. Some people like the aesthetics of it while others don't care.

If you get unwanted comments from passerbys either kill them with kindness or be blatant that their opinions are unwanted. Or just laugh and walk away. No need to argue with someone when they obviously have a strong opinion against cropping.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Ah figured so.

I must be on a kill list. Sorry that I didn't take everyones advice on Xena. It's done now. And just so you know, Xena was not even considered for breeding either, she's getting fixed as soon as her ears are healed and postings are good. This is considered on any and all of any of my dogs. She is in good hands, and won't end up like half of the stories you hear and predict. Yes I made a poor choice of a breeder, but it doesn't make me a bad person whom you imagined. Do you really think putting me down is gonna make me confident in my dog?
FYI it didn't matter if I chose not to get xena. Her "breeder" had already bred another pair of dobies, this lady had already done more damage before I could even inform her on what she is doing to the breed and her name. Certainly my money has supported just a fraction of it, but I can do my best to get higher word over hers...starting here.

Since BYB is a huge problem, for many if not all breeds, then I suggest of some sort of organization...blog or hit list of breeders and names that should be regarded as such unethical breeders. I understand it's out of our control, but maybe if we made a sticky thread on the breeder forum of the BYB, handlers names and location...

I'm not trying to be a pest, and I've returned for sound advice. I'm not here to be poked and pushed around for getting Xena. Also this forum, has caused me great stress since my last post. I've been any many heated arguements with others on how Z factor is a problem, and many just can not grasp their mind around it. Your hard advice was taken, and I'm spreading the word. And I'm willing to help whomever it is that would like more info to get that sticky started...I really, really think this forum should have one.
 

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u mad?
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Since BYB is a huge problem, for many if not all breeds, then I suggest of some sort of organization...blog or hit list of breeders and names that should be regarded as such unethical breeders. I understand it's out of our control, but maybe if we made a sticky thread on the breeder forum of the BYB, handlers names and location...
Not that your idea is a bad one but lets take your situation... How would what you mentioned do more than a long thread that not only had the breeder's name (and webpage, if I remember right) but many reasons (that were explained, not just given) as to why they were unethical.



I'm sorry that trying to teach others about good breeding practices is stressful for you, but it's good that you're doing it. You're not a pest, at least, I don't think so. But do realize that people will be sore (for lack of a better word) still because while they are taking their time and money to help with dogs in need and rescues you gave money to somebody who is pumping out puppies - even after you were given PLENTY of reasons not to.
 

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What could anyone have said or done that would have made you see the wrong in your actions? You were informed before committing to this purchase, but still chose to go through with it. In your second paragraph you say "...it's out of our control..." in regards to BYBs, but it wasn't for you and now you are grouping yourself in the same category with those of us that are against lackluster breeding practices. That's pretty insulting if you ask me. I see the results of your actions everyday and it's painful and frustrating.
 

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sufferin succotash
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You expect people to take your serious, especially after a comment like this? Give me a freaking break.

IMHO

Jay Bees is ethical, and take great care of their dobes. I've contacted many references and will also be contacting the vet that works with jay bees.

Granted that z-list dobes are being breed is definitely not ok. And Jay Bees needs to stop breeding them and if they wish to breed, Non Z-list lines is where the program must start.

It's obvious to me that the Z factor dobe is a huge controversy in the politics of the breed. This simply puts to me that albinoid genetics COULD affect health, and temperament.

Jay Bees is NOT a byb, Jay bees is an ETHICAL breeder. YES, they need to stop breeding z-list dobies. You can trust this breeder, for providing all necessary info to justify that their Z-list dobies are in fact healthy, well tempered and have the same potential as any NON Z-list Doberman. Also to add, it would take a responsible and experienced dog owner to optimize the life and health of ANY canine. Therefore if left in the wrong hands, the poor dog will be sheltered or placed in a rescue, or worse euthanized for over crowded shelters.

To those who are researching Jay Bees in regards of this thread should not take everyone's opinion as legitimate detail. It's the buyers decision and liability for purchasing a z-list Doberman.

I do not support byb nor puppy mills. But I will support an ethical breeder. Keep in mind that even an ethical and reputable breeder will still breed unhealthy dobes to produce for show, or to excel in competition. The line divides here as well, is your Doberman going to work for you? Or is your Doberman a companion, a mans best friend?

Thanks again DT. Z-list Dobermans can sill be just as healthy and temperamental as a hard core Doberman bred for pure genetics.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Xenas byb is just one of many, if we could concentrate on the whole nation of BYB, I think it would help many lurkers know who not to turn to. I understand many will not like me for giving my money to a BYB, but holding me down to it is not gonna help the situation for myself and even future Dobie owners.

I'm very supportive in starting a true BYB hotlist thread, all comments must be only info and updated status of such BYB. No shenanigans.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
You quote my comment from a time where I truly still did not know what I was getting into, even after all the hard work many put into it. As you can see, I've taken the time to read more and understand more of the breed. I'm sorry that most of the reputable breeders here have hard feelings because they put their life into this breed and took the time to tell me as such.

I was bullied a lot on that thread. And many were very heavy handed. Please do not take personal offense to my uneducated comments of the past thread.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Anyways, thanks for the little bit of advice on ear cropping comments.

Seems though that I am not wanted here. Thank you and I hope a BYB hotlist is being considered.
 

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Right I am going to say if you don't wish to hear people's opinions on cropping, don't listen to them. Things only become a problem if you allow them to be. But reading this thread if you allowed your previous thread to bother you when you never met these people, how are you going to be able to handle criticism in person?

I have observed more then commented on this forum and have picked up the major hate campaign against BYB, understandably so. Should of listened to everyone's advice at the time? Yes! Did you do what you wanted anyway? Yes! Do you know have to live with that decision? Yes! You made a stupid mistake supporting someone like that but what's done is done. I think the problem here is you are now trying to make other people not do exactly what you did! It seems more like do as I say, don't do as I do. It makes you hugely hypocritical. You are just going to have to deal with the fall out of your choice. I also wouldn't say that you aren't wanted, but it seems like you wouldn't listen to perfectly good advice last time, so why would people be willing to part with their very insightful and massively useful advice for you this time?

Ride out the storm, if you stay and show you are willing to listen and learn maybe people will warm up a little better to you.
 

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I just try to educate most people even if they're being an ass. It's amazing how giving someone the correct information about cropping can shut them up. And I've found that's generally what it is - a lot of people are not accurately informed about cropping. They think it's all kitchen table torture and they're much more receptive to it once given information about proper cropping and care.

I did lose my temper with a woman one day and I told her to ask me about it again when she has a clue what the f*ck she was talking about. Oops. LOL She was remarkably rude about it though and I tend to shoot off my mouth without thinking first in those situations. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
So what do you consider a reputable breeder?

What makes a breeder a BYB to you?
Before I knew/was informed of reputable breeders and BYB.

BYB: I thought were unethical in a way of the well being of the dogs. I.E. mal-nourished, sanitation, health, temperament and how they are raised.

Reputable Breeder: Someone with a lot of time and effort to breed dogs for shows and competions. With a hefty price for a pup.


NOW that I've gotten the logistics (thanks to DT)

BYB: There is no level of a BYB. It takes just one of the following to make a BYB.
-Does not know what Z FACTOR is (in regards to dobies)
-Does not know of dilute genetics
-Breeds for profit
-Does not take all considerations of health testing, regardless. And does not keep it on record nor up to date.
-Does not know the breed. Period.
-Does not know where, how, or what THEIR dogs lineage.
-Does not thoroughly background check future homes.
-Does not hold a contract for future owners if something shall occur to the dog.
-Does not interact with their dogs (kenneled majority of the time)
-Does not crop before placing homes (for dobies to this extent)
-Does not have all information readily available for future owners
-Does not cover even basic training of their dogs, and does not b:confused:egin basic with the pups
-Does not educate future new breed owners if they are capable of having such a breed
-Does not make them reputable, just because they or relatives have bred dogs for many years
-You are a BYB even if you breed or stud your PET just to have more PETS to share. If you have no business in breeding, then do not even start with your own dog
-Does not encourage future owners to start breeding.

Reputable Breeder: This is not a business. It's a hobby, lifestyle and personal effort. They strive to better the breed, the bleed and live for the breed.
-Will do all of the above that a BYB will not.
-Puts in more effort and time to the breed (extensive training, showing)
-Will breed only if future homes are already in place before considering breeding.
-Breeds not just for show, or competition lines, but also for good health and sound temperaments
-Is well educated and experienced not only of the breed, but of a dog. Genetics, health, and any updated info on the market.
-Keeps very close contacts of past litters, regularly checks up on them, asks for any updated info if there's health issues, and is more than willing to help in any way
-Regardless of price, this breeder knows what is best and would only fee for what's been put into the sire, dam, and the litter as a whole. And of course personal but most likely small profit is made, for their time and work.


Sorry for a lengthy reply. But wanted to get my points across. I really think reputable breeders should get a higher classification through the akc and many other organizations. They work hard, for a breed that works hard for us. I understand that BYB are putting a huge damper on that, and I know I'm in the wrong for supporting a fraction of it. BYB are increasing EVERYDAY.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Error:
A reputable breeder does not encourage others to start breeding.

iPhone troubles...please excuse misspellings and randomness lol
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Right I am going to say if you don't wish to hear people's opinions on cropping, don't listen to them. Things only become a problem if you allow them to be. But reading this thread if you allowed your previous thread to bother you when you never met these people, how are you going to be able to handle criticism in person?

I have observed more then commented on this forum and have picked up the major hate campaign against BYB, understandably so. Should of listened to everyone's advice at the time? Yes! Did you do what you wanted anyway? Yes! Do you know have to live with that decision? Yes! You made a stupid mistake supporting someone like that but what's done is done. I think the problem here is you are now trying to make other people not do exactly what you did! It seems more like do as I say, don't do as I do. It makes you hugely hypocritical. You are just going to have to deal with the fall out of your choice. I also wouldn't say that you aren't wanted, but it seems like you wouldn't listen to perfectly good advice last time, so why would people be willing to part with their very insightful and massively useful advice for you this time?

Ride out the storm, if you stay and show you are willing to listen and learn maybe people will warm up a little better to you.

Of course I would appear as an hypocrit. I went and got a pup from a knowing BYB and now want to rid of them. That's a very hypocritical situation.

I've returned knowing that this forum is very knowledgeable. And as far as offensives come, I only take it heart because I am not a irresponsible person, and even though a decision I made was not conclusively right, it's sill my choice and as a responsible person, I can own up to that.

Truly I've learned not to take DT's advice for granted. For karma is only quick enough to bite me on the arse. There's a lot of dedicated individuals on this forum who would take great offense to my choice and would not take any further time to my calling.
 

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You had ALL this information presented to you BEFORE you bought the pup.... then went and bought her. That doesn't seem like "back before I knew" to me. You were knowingly purchasing from a BYB. WHY??

Good luck, OP.

As for your question- you can educate, or ignore it. Either works. If I get "What happened to her ears?" I usually tell them that shes a Doberman and its customary to crop their ears.
 

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People always are coming up to me asking "What the hell happened to their ears!?!?!?" I just smile and respond "We had them circumsized" The look of shock on their faces is enough for me to walk away victorious.
 
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