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Discussion Starter #21
DG - I was doing some research yesterday on a problem for a guy out of Wisconsin , I have my Commercial License here in Indiana for Crop spraying , When working on his problem I came across this - it has to do with Pyrethroids , I know you said you don't do any lawn care - yet after looking at your above photos ( btw - congrats ) this morning - It made me think back to what I found yesterday - so here is a copy and paste - just something to think about .



Dogs fed extremely large doses of pyrethrins have experienced drooling, tremors, uncoordinated movement, and difficulty breathing. Increased activity, exhaustion, convulsions, and seizures have also been reported with high doses


Thanks for info, the side effects are there but this happens at night around the same time which rules it out. Also our walks before bed are around are neighborhood and its all concrete. (Jersey City, NJ)


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Discussion Starter #23
**Update**

Attitude much better and way more back to normal. Especially with his usual sock stealing antics. So far almost every night that has gone by, Cooper has had great sleep without interruptions. Also, no seizures. *knock on wood *


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Discussion Starter #26
**UPDATE**

Took Cooper to the vet today for bloodwork. It will be a few days for results on his Thyroid levels.

Unfortunately, today around 00:20 midnight he had another seizure, this time less violent looking but very long. This one was around 4 1/2 - 5 minutes long.

Currently he just settled down from pacing around the house and stumbling for about an hour. Very confused and after 15min of pacing I decided to whistle a tune he knows and he stopped dead in his tracks, looked at me with his ears back, and walked over to me. He sniffed me and immediately started to jump on me licking me and showing affection. This was the worst seizure to date.

We started him on “ElleVet” CBD tonight as its a last resort while we still fight hard to figure out whats wrong.

The seizures were definitely delayed though, exactly a month.

Another note, the past few days we noticed he was dripping a bit of blood from his penis. Not sure if its related, but it might be given that the seizure came on a few days later.

Kidneys? Any input is appreciated.


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D Gang - If he is dripping Blood - Then you Need to catch a urine Sample and get it to the VET as soon as possible ! You want to catch first thing in the morning and let him get started before you catch it , that is because there can be some bacteria on him . The Blood could be from a UTI - You need a full urine work up , Like a day ago .

Now is in only my opinion here and take for what its worth - But you need to get them seizures under control - He needs to be on some kind of medicine to control them - I think you need to ditch that CBD stuff - I'm sorry here - to me = that stuff is just wish full thinking - The more your dog has seizures , the harder they are to control and takes more meds to do it . The seizures effect the brain and as our Vet told us , once they start having them - they will get more and more frequent - For lack of better wording - it's a like a marker in there brain , that is why I thing you need to get on top of this sooner than later

One last thing , If you have a animal hospital in your area - I would concerned getting him in to see a internal Medicine Vet and let them do a full work up on him .

Wishing you the very best luck

Doc
 

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**UPDATE**

Took Cooper to the vet today for bloodwork. It will be a few days for results on his Thyroid levels.

Unfortunately, today around 00:20 midnight he had another seizure, this time less violent looking but very long. This one was around 4 1/2 - 5 minutes long.

Currently he just settled down from pacing around the house and stumbling for about an hour. Very confused and after 15min of pacing I decided to whistle a tune he knows and he stopped dead in his tracks, looked at me with his ears back, and walked over to me. He sniffed me and immediately started to jump on me licking me and showing affection. This was the worst seizure to date.

We started him on “ElleVet” CBD tonight as its a last resort while we still fight hard to figure out whats wrong.

The seizures were definitely delayed though, exactly a month.

Another note, the past few days we noticed he was dripping a bit of blood from his penis. Not sure if its related, but it might be given that the seizure came on a few days later.

Kidneys? Any input is appreciated.


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I went back and was re-reading this thread from the beginning, and I realized that I totally missed that you were feeding Acana. I don't want to get TOO much into food debates, but Acana is one of the foods most implicated in nutritional DCM. You may want to have a conversation with your veterinarian about whether to continue feeding it. Champion Pet Foods (the parent company) is one of the companies that has had a lot of dogs diagnosed with DCM on their food, and Acana in particular is one of the foods that has had a lot of cases of it.

If you are using CBD, is that with the guidance of your veterinarian? I ask because it can affect how the prescription drugs are working.

I'm glad there was a long break in the seizures. I'm hoping you and your vet can figure out a medication protocol to get a much longer duration of seizure-free days.
 

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About the blood dripping from his penis. There are a number of things that can causer this. One of the most common is acute prostatitis--more common in intact dogs than in neutered dogs.

Bladder infections and the presence of crystals without an infection can also cause this sort of blood dripping.

And one of my intact males had just plain a thin bladder lining and he sometimes had bouts of hematuria (bleeding in the bladder) not caused by a prostate problem at all but cystitis secondary to crystals forming from to alkaline urine.

His treatment and control was right out of human male treatment for a similar problem. Put him on glucosamine (no chondritin) and Hills CD (to make his urine more acidic. Glucosamine provided the raw material for a thicker bladder lining and the CD regulated the pH of the urine.

Prostatitis, for the record is usually pretty painful and you get more symptoms than just the blood dripping from his penis. But get that checked out and soon.

dobebug
 

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Discussion Starter #30
**Update**

His bloodwork came back with his thyroid levels still showing a bit low so the dosage is up from .06 to .08.

CBD has been given an hour before he goes to bed. (Has been recommended by the neurologists to try prior to anti-convulsants)

We switched his food after the first seizure and they are both on “Dr. Tim’s Kinesis - All life stages”

We’ve also ran urinalysis tests when this first happened with his levels showing all okay. (Protein slightly high but he was on Acana)

Stumped on where to go next.



So far......



-First two seizures were ten days apart.

-Third seizure thirty days apart from the last one with signs of blood from his penis.

-Seizures are always around midnight 00:00.


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Discussion Starter #31
**UPDATE**

Okay, interesting update...

Cooper has gone about 8 weeks seizure free. He is currently on a .08 dosage of levothyroxine and he takes some cbd at night before bed. Last night though he had a seizure.

I know this wasn’t the news we were hoping for but to go from seizures much closely together to much further apart means we’re doing something right.

Also, this seizure happened around 23:00 instead of midnight. (While sleeping) although the time changed an hour earlier, its seems to still be while sleeping.

Lastly, the seizure only lasted about a minute. Wow was it such a relief! It also was not as aggressive although he did urinate himself again :/. When he came out of it though, he was much better with the pacing and thirst, etc. It was not a few hour long thing getting his bearings. It was about 30min of very light pacing, thirst, and curiosity. After that, straight to sleep.

I think we’re on to something, but when we do bloodwork again to check his levels we’ll update again.

Thanks everyone, be well.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
**UPDATE**

Another seizure tonight about ten minutes ago. We noticed the past two seizures accompanied by lots of humping and excitement prior to going to bed....is that related? Prostate?? This was also accompanied with red blood spotting from his penis.

Thoughts??
 

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He seems a little young to be having prostate troubles due to its enlargement (which can happen as they get older) or the infection which might go along with that. Is he neutered? I'm wondering if perhaps some kind of physical stress or spasming during the seizure could cause a little tear somewhere that could account for the bleeding. There are a lot of blood-rich tissues in that area.

And I gather there are a lot of different things that can trigger a seizure, and also that different areas of brain involvement can cause somewhat different pre-seizure and seizure activity??

But I have no idea what could be going on; I'm not a vet. I would love to hear what your vet says about it.

Keep us posted.
 

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Discussion Starter #34
Thanks melbrod,

Both of mine are intact males. Vets are clueless and not helpful at all. My fiance and I find out more reading and troubleshooting on our own unfortunately. We do have a scheduled appointment with an internal medicine doctor in a few weeks though. I will update with anything significant.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
**Update**

Seizure again tonight. 03:15. Time seems to be changing up now. Happened while sleeping. Lasted a Minute. Disoriented for the past 30min.

Levothyroxine and CBD seem to bot be helping at this point as he had three seizures in about 3 weeks time.

Might consider anticonvulsants but very upset we arent finding the root cause and treating the end result.

As an aircraft technician, we dont just repair an error message by deleting it or changing the screen, we find out whats the root cause to the problem and change components as required.

I feel anticonvulsants may “help” this situation but it seems it may be a bandaid fix for another underlying issue.
 

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DG, have you made video of Cooper's sleeping seizures for the doctors to view?

Just my experience - our Doberboy, Spock sleeps on foot of my bed with us since I retired from work and home all the time. Spock has very active dreams when sleeping with lots of leg movements, to the point of kicking me repeatedly with back legs while "running" in sleep. He'll also sleep bark, muffled, as if chasing after some squirrel in his dreams... If you wake him up from such a deep sleep, he acts disorientated, with droopy eyes and not fully aware of surroundings.

Last week, he scared us by jumping (falling?) off end of bed onto floor, feet first in very early morning. (Not because of a sound, because I checked Nest cameras sound tracks) We just heard scrambling of his nails on tile floor. I went to wake him and he couldn't get up of floor, still not quite aware of what happened. After I did help him to stand, he urinated on floor, still with "deer in headlight" look on face. I think he was shocked at what happened, as he never pees in house unless close thunderbolt strikes outside. Spock then recovered immediately as I gave him piece of kibble, but I thought he had experienced some type of seizure, like Cooper.

When Spock is sleeping, having active night dreams, I'll calm him down by massaging his legs and hip, which works well, without waking him up. Next time he's having such a dream I'll video it and post a link for you here so you can compare it to Cooper's nighttime seizures. There have been several seizure threads on DT in past where videos were posted of actual seizures underway, which were very disturbing to me, or any Doberman owner. :|

Hope you find a fix for Cooper's issues.
 

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Thanks spock these are seizures. My other one Hudson has dreams that you speak of and is even vocal We have filmed it to show the vet the first time it happened and it was confirmed.

Spock had a 2nd incident yesterday while we were sleeping on bed in early evening. Heard a bang against nightstand or dresser cabinet. When I got up
Spock was, again, feet down on floor struggling to get up and had peed on tile. I helped him up and he went outside normally to potty, although acting scared and confused again. Back to normal immediately after getting up. :|

This morning, did research in DT thread archives and read this long and extensive seizure thread about a dog Hoss, owned by Incredibledobes, from 11.2009. It's a very informative thread about seizures, diagnoses, treatments and outcomes, which should be of particular interest to you:

https://www.dobermantalk.com/doberman-health/33530-seizures-any-info.html

Maybe Spock's two incidents could be some form of "night terrors" that is discussed occasionally on DT. He is never aggressive during incidents, just scared and confused, unlike some of the seizures discussed in the 2009 seizure thread. He also is back to his normal self immediately.

A post by Hoss's owner late in 2009 thread, after treatment started, really summed up the whole situation of having a young & active IPO trained dog quickly degrade into "just a zombie, basically" (her words)

https://www.dobermantalk.com/doberman-health/33530-seizures-any-info-4.html#post563166


Sadly, Hoss's demise came only 4 mo. later in 2.2010:
https://www.dobermantalk.com/rainbow-bridge/37410-hoss-da-boss.html


Having two 10+ y/o Dobes myself, now I frequently ponder that question of would it be best for the the dog, and humans, to sustain them a condition like that. Thankfully, a good quality of life sticky thread is in DT Doberman Health forum to help owners decide.

https://www.dobermantalk.com/doberman-health/215401-quality-life-scale-pets-help-euthanasia-decision.html
 

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Discussion Starter #39
Thanks for info, noticed in one thread another doberman owner “lexxsmom” had the same issue with her’s having only at night while sleeping. I messaged her to see if I can gain anymore info. A good suggestion by her was to carry valium which IVE ASKED my vet for in the just in case scenarios but I might have to demand it. It only makes sense to have it just in case he has a really bad and prolonged seizure.
 

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Discussion Starter #40
Good evening all,

Another seizure tonight that lasted about a minute and he recovered pretty quickly compared to other nights. It was around 23:20 tonight. (About 3 weeks since the last seizure)

FYI: He is on 1mg Levothyroxine as his levels were still low on the .6 and the .8. He is also taking ElleVet CBD prescribed by the neurologist at 21:30 every night before bed.

Bloodwork will be performed again to recheck his levels. I’m assuming it’ll still be low.

Will update.


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