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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hey everyone! I have another question you all can help me with.
I recently looked into my current favourite breeder, who I do plan on adopting a puppy from, however, when looking into some of his/her dogs pedigrees, I found something. Several dogs have died quite young from cancer, and there are also two dogs who are either confirmed to have or have the possibility of having Von Wellebrand's disease. Now, only one of these is in the current breeding generation, but is it still safe to purchase a dog with SOME of these dogs for grand sires/dams?

I trust the breeder a lot, which is why I am not revealing his or her name, however, I don't want to lose a puppy young. I'm already attached and I haven't even contacted the breeder yet!

What are the chances of this happening to a puppy descended from one of these dogs dying of the same cause at a young age?

NOTE - I have greatly researched this breeder. His/Her dogs are top quality, with many current and past titles. As well, I have met several people who have purchased pups from him/her, and they are more than happy with both their new family members and the service and help this breeder has provided them. This is not a question about whether or not the breeder is good, but of what will happen to the pups.
 

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Well, the VWD is an easy one. Personally I won't own another VWD affected dog. You need to ask the status of the parents. If it is such that they would produce affected pups and the breeder isn't testing pups b4 selling, I'd pass.

As for the cancer, it would depend on how many dogs and how close in the pedigree.
 

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Cancer is very generic, what cancers, how young, how close, how many? That's a genetic crapshoot.

As to the vwd, carrier or afflicted? Modern science has come far enough that in my opinion any dog born afflicted is coming from someone trying to pad their bank account and make the bitch earn her keep. Greeder.
 

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Cancer is very generic, what cancers, how young, how close, how many? That's a genetic crapshoot.

As to the vwd, carrier or afflicted? Modern science has come far enough that in my opinion any dog born afflicted is coming from someone trying to pad their bank account and make the bitch earn her keep. Greeder.
Unfortunately I cannot find the types of cancer or how old they were. There are 3 that this breeder lost to cancer.
As for the vwd, one dog was a carrier, as admitted by the breeder on their website, and the other dog, when looked up on a site other than the breeders, is said "unconfirmed carrier".
 

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u mad?
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Cancer is very generic, what cancers, how young, how close, how many? That's a genetic crapshoot.

As to the vwd, carrier or afflicted? Modern science has come far enough that in my opinion any dog born afflicted is coming from someone trying to pad their bank account and make the bitch earn her keep. Greeder.
This.

Also, it's a pet peeve of mine when people say that they're adopting a dog from a breeder. You aren't adopting from a breeder, you're purchasing.
 

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You're not understanding vWD. Go to the Doberman Pinscher Club of America site and look up health problems, inherited diseases or however it is worded and educate yourself about them, so you understand them better. I wouldnt buy a pup who had grandparents/their siblings or closer like aunts/uncles that died from cancer.
 

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The vwd is no issue if you ask the breeder to provide dna tests. Go to Vetgen's website and there is a chart that will help you understand how it works.

Cancer is a tough one and I would sit down with the breeder and ask specifically what type of cancer. Keep in mind it is sometimes hard to get accurate information on causes of death ....so you really need to trust the person. Go with your gut.
 

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It depends on what types of cancer and at what age. Some cancers are more genetically predisposed, but environmental influences (think second hand smoke, UV rays, ect.) can definitely bring on cancer as well. Of course, as your ability to fight off cancer on a cellular and molecular level goes down as you age, and the mutations in your DNA accumulate, there's always a higher risk of cancer as one gets older. Unless you're a shark or something. Cancer at 4, 5 would worry me and I'd think it's something definitely genetic, but cancer at 9, 10 isn't a red flag to me and I would just see it as immune system getting worse, mutations accumulated, ect.
 

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Sorry, I should have mentioned that a lethal cancer would be more acceptable to me in a grandparent/gp sibling at a latter age such as 11 or older.
 

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I live in Brampton, Ontario. There are many back yard breeders here. People who do not health test or title. I would personally pass on this breeder - I would want the breeder to be 100% upfront with me about COD, age, etc. Show me health test reports, their ribbons and titles. These are things a breeder should want to do - they should be essentially bragging/selling their pup to me. Just like I sell my home and why a pup would flourish here.

If you want some guidance from someone who lives here, PM me. There are quite a few of us on here from Ontario - I'm sure any one of them would be glad to help you. :)
 

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Hey everyone! I have another question you all can help me with.
I recently looked into my current favourite breeder, who I do plan on adopting a puppy from, however, when looking into some of his/her dogs pedigrees, I found something. Several dogs have died quite young from cancer, and there are also two dogs who are either confirmed to have or have the possibility of having Von Wellebrand's disease. Now, only one of these is in the current breeding generation, but is it still safe to purchase a dog with SOME of these dogs for grand sires/dams?

What age is quite young? Dobermans do not have a very long expectancy like other breeds. But yes Cancer, and VWD is something I would definitely be discussing and asking what happened.
Also, not all dogs a good breeder breeds are from the same lineage. They may have a couple different lines they are continuing... Research and talk to them or any breeder you are interested in! I know when I went to look for breeders, health and temperament was my #1 priority. I was shown massive folders of health records, tests, certificates, and all the paperwork before we even met the dogs. They should be ready and willing to show you records of the sire and dam, as well as anything else you request. Don't be short on any question you may want to ask!


I trust the breeder a lot, which is why I am not revealing his or her name, however, I don't want to lose a puppy young. I'm already attached and I haven't even contacted the breeder yet!

What are the chances of this happening to a puppy descended from one of these dogs dying of the same cause at a young age?

NOTE - I have greatly researched this breeder. His/Her dogs are top quality, with many current and past titles. As well, I have met several people who have purchased pups from him/her, and they are more than happy with both their new family members and the service and help this breeder has provided them. This is not a question about whether or not the breeder is good, but of what will happen to the pups.

If the breeder is good, they will show you their records, and will have no problems openly discussing their lines they produce from... And any health concerns you could have. Also, most breeders will have a health guarantee with their pups against certain things... Which you should also ask to view a copy of the purchase agreement and what it consists of.

Follow your gut feelings, take your time and research a lot.

 

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I don't like the "unconfirmed carrier". My opinion is that any breeding dog should be DNA tested before breeding and everything should be confirmed. I would not purchase a dog if I did not know the parents DNA status.

As far as the cancer, if dogs in the pedigree 1 or 2 generations back have died of cancer before 8-10 yrs of age I would definitely look elsewhere.

When I bought my boy one of my biggest factors that I looked for is longevity in the line of 10+ years.

From the information you are giving it sounds suspicious. Have you searched for the breeder on here to see if others have posted anything about him/her?
 

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Linda is right in that you may be misunderstanding vwd. Around 75% of all dobermans are either carriers or affected.. there is no avoiding vwd completely in a pedigree. What's important is whether YOUR puppy is vwd clear, carrier, or affected. This is determined either by testing the puppies DNA individually, or it can be determined by parentage. vwd follows a very strict inheritance pattern. 2 parents who are vwd clear will only produce vwd clear puppies, so there is no need to test the puppies. If 1 parent is a carrier and another is a clear, they can only produce clear or carrier puppies. There is no harm in owning a carrier.. they do not exhibit any symptoms of the disease. Being a carrier has no effect on their quality of life whatsoever. It is not unethical for breeders to produce carrier puppies, in fact, it is desirable compared to producing affected puppies.

2 parents who are carriers can produce clear, carrier, or affected puppies.. and this is when the puppies themselves would need to be tested, as there would be a possibility your puppy could be affected. A carrier to affected breeding will produce carrier or affected puppies, and an affected to affected breeding would produce affected puppies.

So essentially, the only vwd in the pedigree that matters is the vwd status of your puppy's parents. It doesn't matter how much vwd is in your puppy's pedigree as long as your puppy itself isn't affected.

Is the "unconfirmed carrier" dog in your puppy's pedigree one of your puppy's parents? If not, that dog may not have even belonged to the breeder. The important thing is that the breeder knows the vwd status of YOUR puppy's parents and can provide that to you. If they cannot provide you with the vwd status of your puppy's parents, that is a red flag. [Although, I will qualify that somewhat by saying that if the breeder knows one of your puppy's parents is a clear (say the mother, whom I assume she owns), and she also knows that the sire is an "unconfirmed carrier" by parentage (when one parent is clear and the other is affected, ALL puppies will be carriers), then it wouldn't be unethical to breed these dogs because there would be no chance of producing affected puppies. Does that make sense? The sire may be an "unconfirmed carrier" simply because his parents were a clear and an affected, which would produce all carrier puppies, every single time. In this case there would be no need to test the sire, because he is for certain a carrier.]

As for cancer, that is tough to say. Have you asked the breeder about these dogs specifically? Cancer is unfortunately very prevalent in our breed and I agree with manjugowa in that EARLY cancer deaths may be troubling to me but later cancer deaths are a different story. This is an unhealthy breed in general and basically, if cancer doesn't get them DCM, liver disease, or wobbler's usually will. If a pedigree were littered with early cancer deaths.. say before age 9, I might be concerned. I would also be concerned if they were all the same type of cancer. But, it is tough to say without knowing more. You need to have a good discussion with your breeder.
 

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I don't like the "unconfirmed carrier". My opinion is that any breeding dog should be DNA tested before breeding and everything should be confirmed. I would not purchase a dog if I did not know the parents DNA status.
Just to reiterate, this dog may be a carrier by PARENTAGE - if one of his parents was clear and the other affected, then he is most definitely a carrier. So there would be no need to do a DNA test to confirm this. A clear to affected breeding only produces carriers.
 

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Linda is right in that you may be misunderstanding vwd. Around 75% of all dobermans are either carriers or affected.. there is no avoiding vwd completely in a pedigree. What's important is whether YOUR puppy is vwd clear, carrier, or affected. This is determined either by testing the puppies DNA individually, or it can be determined by parentage. vwd follows a very strict inheritance pattern. 2 parents who are vwd clear will only produce vwd clear puppies, so there is no need to test the puppies. If 1 parent is a carrier and another is a clear, they can only produce clear or carrier puppies. There is no harm in owning a carrier.. they do not exhibit any symptoms of the disease. Being a carrier has no effect on their quality of life whatsoever. It is not unethical for breeders to produce carrier puppies, in fact, it is desirable compared to producing affected puppies.

2 parents who are carriers can produce clear, carrier, or affected puppies.. and this is when the puppies themselves would need to be tested, as there would be a possibility your puppy could be affected. A carrier to affected breeding will produce carrier or affected puppies, and an affected to affected breeding would produce affected puppies.

So essentially, the only vwd in the pedigree that matters is the vwd status of your puppy's parents. It doesn't matter how much vwd is in your puppy's pedigree as long as your puppy itself isn't affected.
good post!
 

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Before you go any further you need to discuss this with the prospective breeder. I am curious on how you know the info you do if you have not talked to them yet??? If they posted it then I would say at least it appears they are honest about what has gone on before.

Vwd is really an easy one - Even if one of the dogs is suspected carrier if they are breeding to a clear it is a non issue. Vwd is seldom fatal but a person should know the status prior to breeding.
 
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