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Discussion Starter #1
This topic has been discussed in the past but I cannot find what i was looking for in a prior post so here's my question.

Are Canadian (CKC) championships easier to get than AKC championships because there is less competition? Or is there a fundamental difference in the process?

Are the requirements less demanding in Canada because there is a smaller population of each breed at your average show then there would be at your average AKC show?

Thanks for the insight.
 

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There is a difference in the process, AND there are usually fewer dogs per show. As Murreydobe mentioned, a recent CKC national had only a few more dogs than a large all breed show or local speciality here.

In Canada, as I recall, a dog only needs 10 points to finish, versus needing 15 in the US. In the past, in Canada, no majors were required. I think that might have changed to require one major, but I'm not sure. In the US two majors are required. Majors are given in large entries. So theoretically at least if they still don't require any majors, in Canada, you could finish a dog one point at a time in very small shows, with very few dogs in competition.

Whereas in the U.S., if the entries drop below a certain number depending on region, a dog can be Winners Dog or Winners Bitch and still not receive any points.

Both the lower number of points required, and the lack of requiring major/s are fundamental differences in the process. The usual lower number of dogs in competition is not a difference in the process, but simply a fact of dog shows in Canada.
 

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We do require something they call a major, but here it is 2 points and we only need one. A dog can earn 2 points here with 3-5 dogs in competition so theoretically, it's not too difficult to do usually in this breed but it actually is a nightmare for some breeds where entries are *really* low.

The original poster's question is really not that easy to answer in some ways. In some areas, the competition is tough. In others, it's easier. Entries ebb and flow - there might be 20 entered, there might be 2. You never know. Those 2 entries might be specials so there are no points available for the class dogs and in that respect, it may take a while to find some points. I had that problem when we were showing Rory - entries were poor that summer and we were often the only class entry.

There may be less entries but they may be quality entries. I happen to live in an area where the top breeder in Canada lives along with a couple of others that usually do extremely well. Defeating them isn't easy.

Then there are times that there are entries and the quality isn't so good and it's easy to finish. You really see it all here.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks for the responses.

It seems if the CKC ever tried to increase the difficulty of getting points (ex. increase the number of entries required to earn a point), they would alienate the less popular breeds.

Does the problem Mary stated, getting enough/any entries in the class, happen often in AKC shows? Whether for dobermans or less popular breeds?
 

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Dobedad said:
Does the problem Mary stated, getting enough/any entries in the class, happen often in AKC shows? Whether for dobermans or less popular breeds?
It happens in dobermans, but not often ( in my area, at least).

I don't know how they calculate the point system in Canada..but the AKC changes it every year..it's based on the entries by breed in each specific region in the prior years. So if a breed in a particular area had a hard time pulling enough of an entry to even earn a single point on any consistent basis, the point system would be adjusted (lowered) to reflect that. If entries started to rise in any breed in a specific area, the point system would be adjusted to reflect that as well.
 

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The Canadian point system stays the same year in, year out. Doesn't change. It's the same for every breed, doesn't matter the entries. Any attempt they've talked about to make it more difficult has met with much venom from CKC members. At one time, they were at least discussing changing it to 15 points - that didn't happen. The only change we did see was that 2 point "major" I mentioned.

However, I believe a new Grand Champion program is coming into existence which is going to recognize dogs that are consistent in the BIS arena and the groups, I believe, and I think they also have to earn a CGN if I'm remembering correctly.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
MaryAndDobes said:
However, I believe a new Grand Champion program is coming into existence which is going to recognize dogs that are consistent in the BIS arena and the groups, I believe, and I think they also have to earn a CGN if I'm remembering correctly.
Sounds like a step in the right direction. I can imagine it's not an easy task trying to keep everything balanced and fair when there are such large population swings across the country. Weighting the point system based on region and breed numbers, like Murreydobe said, sounds like a good idea. Although, does that encourage people to show only in less populated areas where the points are easier to come by?
 

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One of the differences between AKC and CKC shows and the point systems other than "major" requirements and total points is the CKC awards point for group placements as well as group wins. Often that's how some of the rarer breeds with very low entries finish Canadian champions.

The points are based on the number of breeds shown in the particular group--generally 1st place in a group will win 5 points, 2nd place 4 points etc.

Another place there is a difference is that in Canada you are REQUIRED to go on to complete in every class/group you are eligible for or you loose the points that you might have gotten for lower wins. For instance if the dog goes BOB and gets two points it must go one to compete in the group or it will loose the 2 points from the breed.

AKC tries to balance the point systems from area to area--recently they added an area for some states that typically don't have many kennel clubs, specialty clubs or dog shows because the states included in the new area had not had majors in years. And yes, it dragged dogs, owners and professional handlers in by the record numbers to the circuits for "cheap" majors. As a result the competition looked like California (notorious for years for shows with big entries and the largest number of dogs and/or bitches needed to get majors) shows with entries in the 60 and 70 dogs and class entries in the 30's or more for each sex.

There are shows in various locations that nearly always have small entries and never make majors--but you need to have 15 points total and there have been dogs who actually got two 3 point majors but never managed to finish their championships. And the AKC majors have to be under different judges (I can think of at least one dog in recent memory who had three majors and about 22 points and remained unfinished because the same judge gave him all three majors (and some of the minor points) but no other judge would give him that second major.

<VBG> I've shown in Canada when all of the class competition was all AKC champions and I've shown in Canada when the only other dog was a weedy puppy--and I show in an area that usually has decent entries.

Canadian championships may look "easier" and sometimes they are--but don't count on it. There have been Canadian dogs and breeders who have, over the years, contributed significantly to the AKC Doberman and it's pedigree.
 

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Dobedad said:
Weighting the point system based on region and breed numbers, like Murreydobe said, sounds like a good idea. Although, does that encourage people to show only in less populated areas where the points are easier to come by?
Some people and some dogs..depends on how desparate they are. <g> There are lots of jokes made about people taking dogs to Alaska to finish them, where you only need an entry of something like 3-4 for a major. With a point system that low, you can enter every dog you own (good quality or not) and build your own majors.

I wouldn't do it-if I show a dog, it's a GOOD dog and I want to finish it by beating lots and lots of other good dogs. So looking for cheap majors in another area wouldn't be an option I'd consider.
 

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dobebug said:
There have been Canadian dogs and breeders who have, over the years, contributed significantly to the AKC Doberman and it's pedigree.
This is absolutely true. As I've said over and over again, the best of the Canadian dogs is very good indeed. I'm looking at a dog on the couch next to me right now that exists because of the influence of a Canadian dog of the past.
 
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