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Pride of Russia, Altobello, and del Nasi lines are known to be at high risk of DCM. No one can say for sure if your puppy will get it, but best to get him tested every year after 2 year old. Holter and echo tests can catch it early and dogs can live several more years on medication.
 

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Do you know whether his parents were health tested thoroughly before being bred?

Health tests you want to see results of (on the official paperwork, not just a verbal assurance) from both parents are:

1. DCM ( A deadly heart disease many dobermans are affected with)--a Holter test and an echocardiogram done every year before breeding. Unfortunately, this won't tell you that any puppies will be free of DCM, or even if the parents will stay clear of heart problems, but it's the best we can do. There is a gene test, but it is not particularly good--it may pick up some dogs at risk, but there are multiple genes involved, so a dog can be clear and still have problems. The Holter test will check for arrhythmias, and you should see results of an echo-cardiogram to check for heart enlargement. Every year.

2. Thyroid test--check for hypothyroid. Every year.

3. Liver function blood tests. Every year.

4. CERF to check for eye disease. Not sure how often on that one

5. vonWillebrands--(a bleeding disorder)--puppy should be clear or carrier, done by genetic testing. Sometimes you can tell by the parent's status (in which case, one parent clear and one either clear, carrier or affected is OK). One-time test.

6. Hips (for joint problems)--parents should be good or better (puppy can't be tested and certified until 18 months old (provisional) or 2 years old. There is an OFA database for hips and elbows where you can see results. One-time test

7. Look at bloodlines for incidence of DCM, wobblers, liver disease. Look at bloodlines for cause of death and longevity. That means direct ancestors back several generations, also dogs from the same litter as either parent, puppies from previous breedings of either parent...

That's just the health tests.

You also need to be concerned about temperament of the parents. A good breeder can match you with the appropriate puppy for what you want to do with it--there are different personalities in every litter, and different breeders tend to concentrate on certain kinds of temperament depending on what they are looking for in a doberman.

Titles are important--they are independent judgements of the quality of the breeding dogs involved (not just the breeder telling you his dogs are "great")
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Do you know whether his parents were health tested thoroughly before being bred?

Health tests you want to see results of (on the official paperwork, not just a verbal assurance) from both parents are:

1. DCM ( A deadly heart disease many dobermans are affected with)--a Holter test and an echocardiogram done every year before breeding. Unfortunately, this won't tell you that any puppies will be free of DCM, or even if the parents will stay clear of heart problems, but it's the best we can do. There is a gene test, but it is not particularly good--it may pick up some dogs at risk, but there are multiple genes involved, so a dog can be clear and still have problems. The Holter test will check for arrhythmias, and you should see results of an echo-cardiogram to check for heart enlargement. Every year.

2. Thyroid test--check for hypothyroid. Every year.

3. Liver function blood tests. Every year.

4. CERF to check for eye disease. Not sure how often on that one

5. vonWillebrands--(a bleeding disorder)--puppy should be clear or carrier, done by genetic testing. Sometimes you can tell by the parent's status (in which case, one parent clear and one either clear, carrier or affected is OK). One-time test.

6. Hips (for joint problems)--parents should be good or better (puppy can't be tested and certified until 18 months old (provisional) or 2 years old. There is an OFA database for hips and elbows where you can see results. One-time test

7. Look at bloodlines for incidence of DCM, wobblers, liver disease. Look at bloodlines for cause of death and longevity. That means direct ancestors back several generations, also dogs from the same litter as either parent, puppies from previous breedings of either parent...

That's just the health tests.

You also need to be concerned about temperament of the parents. A good breeder can match you with the appropriate puppy for what you want to do with it--there are different personalities in every litter, and different breeders tend to concentrate on certain kinds of temperament depending on what they are looking for in a doberman.

Titles are important--they are independent judgements of the quality of the breeding dogs involved (not just the breeder telling you his dogs are "great")
Yes all the health tests came in great for the parents. And they do have working titles.
 

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Do the parents have recent Cardiac Ultrasounds and 24 hour Holter monitor results or just the DCM DNA results? What are the ages and causes of death in the extended pedigree? A lot of breeders out there do the DNA tests for DCM and call it a day. Those DNA tests are really more for research and have no real bearing on the chances of a Doberman getting DCM in reality. Case in Point, my male, Harvard, is Heterogeneous (1 copy) for DCM1, and Homogeneous (2 copies) for DCM2. It there were any real correlation, he would be dead of DCM well before now. He is currently 13 years and 9 months - he will be 14 in December. His heart is fine. I did cardiac ultrasounds on him till he was 12, and his last 24 hour holter was done at age 10. His heart was always good.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Do the parents have recent Cardiac Ultrasounds and 24 hour Holter monitor results or just the DCM DNA results? What are the ages and causes of death in the extended pedigree? A lot of breeders out there do the DNA tests for DCM and call it a day. Those DNA tests are really more for research and have no real bearing on the chances of a Doberman getting DCM in reality. Case in Point, my male, Harvard, is Heterogeneous (1 copy) for DCM1, and Homogeneous (2 copies) for DCM2. It there were any real correlation, he would be dead of DCM well before now. He is currently 13 years and 9 months - he will be 14 in December. His heart is fine. I did cardiac ultrasounds on him till he was 12, and his last 24 hour holter was done at age 10. His heart was always good.
The parents have their EKG, ECHO, and DOPPLER tests done. They all came in good.
 

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No one can predict whether your doberman puppy "will" be healthy. However I can say based on your pedigree these are some very high risk lines for sudden death/dcm and poor longevity. The parents may be healthy now but who knows for how long?
your puppy's sire is linebred 3x on Fedor del Nasi who died suddenly, and produced a lot of DCM... his dam also died suddenly as did his grandsire. His dam's littermate did too. Your puppy's dam is a great grand daughter of Fedor del Nasi through his son Pride of Russia Sidor who died suddenly also. Her sire died young at 6 supposedly from complications related to surgery... but one of his littermates was euthanized before the age of 2 due to "behavioural issues"... your puppy is thus inbred 4 times on Fedor and his very high risk genetics. On top of that he's also linebred on maxim di altobello, twice who died suddenly as well. There's also linebreeding on Pimm's Number One Iz Doma Domeni who, you guessed it, died suddenly at 8.

And even for the dogs who didn't die suddenly of probable cardio, and dogs who aren't repeated in the pedigree most of the age brackets at time of death aren't great.

This is just for the first 4/5 generations by the way this is not even an in depth analysis as a proper pedigree analysis should span minimum 8 generations and ideally up to 12.

Your puppy's Sire's paternal side
Azure Rectangle Font Screenshot Magenta

Your Puppy's Sire's maternal side
Product Azure Rectangle Font Pink

Your puppy's dam's paternal side
Product Rectangle Pink Font Aqua

Your puppy's dam's maternal side
Product Azure Rectangle Pink Font


Bright red squares = sudden death
Bright orange = cancer
Reddish-orange (like for Icarus di Altobello) = internal medicine issue or related (kidney/liver/spleen)
Yellow = Bloat
Bright green = accidental death.

My personal system for risk assessment is pretty basic math it's not at all something I've done empirical study on, just something I use to help give myself a general sense of overall risk assessment. I first tally up the number of instances of DCM or sudden death in the pedigree.
13 dogs out of 60 in the first 5 generations of your puppy's pedigree died suddenly, including a close ancestor (grand dam). However when those instances are from a repeating dog, I add a +2 value to the instances which is still pretty generous as in reality, linebreeding multiplies/amplifies not simply "adds".

So you get +2 for the second instance of P Number One IDD, and +2for the second instance of Maxim di Altobello. We are now at 17 out of 60. Now we get to Fedor who is there 4 times so +6 we get to 23 out of 60. That's a 43% Chance your pup might die suddenly. For the dogs who are likely dead but have no info on date or cause of death, in this breed my conservative estimate would be to assume DCM or sudden death, and to assume they did not make it to the good or above average longevity bracket. That's another + 9 so we are now sitting at 32/60 confirmed probable or speculated instances of DCM or sudden death. That's a 53% risk.

To do an overall picture you'd repeat this process with deaths before age 8 (personally, I'd do so with deaths before age 9).

Then I also do it with the "positives" i.e. the instances of dogs who lived 9 years or older and then including only those 10 years or older. Obviously the further back the problem dogs are in the pedigree, the lower the risk.. but it becomes moot if those dogs get repeated a lot. And certainly the more up close, the higher the risk.

Obviously this doesn't mean your dog will die young or will die suddenly or develop DCM. You may get lucky and end up with a dog who wins the genetic lottery and in spite of all odds makes it to 13. As I said at the beginning no one can tell you if your dog WILL be healthy and WILL live long, or WILL be sick and WILL die young. But from a statistical probability standpoint, Based on this very quick and rudimentary, preliminary analysis chances the probability isn't in your pup's favour.

What I'd like to know is, why are you asking this question now, rather than before you get your pup?
 

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No one can predict whether your doberman puppy "will" be healthy. However I can say based on your pedigree these are some very high risk lines for sudden death/dcm and poor longevity. The parents may be healthy now but who knows for how long?
your puppy's sire is linebred 3x on Fedor del Nasi who died suddenly, and produced a lot of DCM... his dam also died suddenly as did his grandsire. His dam's littermate did too. Your puppy's dam is a great grand daughter of Fedor del Nasi through his son Pride of Russia Sidor who died suddenly also. Her sire died young at 6 supposedly from complications related to surgery... but one of his littermates was euthanized before the age of 2 due to "behavioural issues"... your puppy is thus inbred 4 times on Fedor and his very high risk genetics. On top of that he's also linebred on maxim di altobello, twice who died suddenly as well. There's also linebreeding on Pimm's Number One Iz Doma Domeni who, you guessed it, died suddenly at 8.

And even for the dogs who didn't die suddenly of probable cardio, and dogs who aren't repeated in the pedigree most of the age brackets at time of death aren't great.

This is just for the first 4/5 generations by the way this is not even an in depth analysis as a proper pedigree analysis should span minimum 8 generations and ideally up to 12.

Your puppy's Sire's paternal side
View attachment 142032
Your Puppy's Sire's maternal side
View attachment 142033
Your puppy's dam's paternal side
View attachment 142034
Your puppy's dam's maternal side
View attachment 142035

Bright red squares = sudden death
Bright orange = cancer
Reddish-orange (like for Icarus di Altobello) = internal medicine issue or related (kidney/liver/spleen)
Yellow = Bloat
Bright green = accidental death.

My personal system for risk assessment is pretty basic math it's not at all something I've done empirical study on, just something I use to help give myself a general sense of overall risk assessment. I first tally up the number of instances of DCM or sudden death in the pedigree.
13 dogs out of 60 in the first 5 generations of your puppy's pedigree died suddenly, including a close ancestor (grand dam). However when those instances are from a repeating dog, I add a +2 value to the instances which is still pretty generous as in reality, linebreeding multiplies/amplifies not simply "adds".

So you get +2 for the second instance of P Number One IDD, and +2for the second instance of Maxim di Altobello. We are now at 17 out of 60. Now we get to Fedor who is there 4 times so +6 we get to 23 out of 60. That's a 43% Chance your pup might die suddenly. For the dogs who are likely dead but have no info on date or cause of death, in this breed my conservative estimate would be to assume DCM or sudden death, and to assume they did not make it to the good or above average longevity bracket. That's another + 9 so we are now sitting at 32/60 confirmed probable or speculated instances of DCM or sudden death. That's a 53% risk.

To do an overall picture you'd repeat this process with deaths before age 8 (personally, I'd do so with deaths before age 9).

Then I also do it with the "positives" i.e. the instances of dogs who lived 9 years or older and then including only those 10 years or older. Obviously the further back the problem dogs are in the pedigree, the lower the risk.. but it becomes moot if those dogs get repeated a lot. And certainly the more up close, the higher the risk.

Obviously this doesn't mean your dog will die young or will die suddenly or develop DCM. You may get lucky and end up with a dog who wins the genetic lottery and in spite of all odds makes it to 13. As I said at the beginning no one can tell you if your dog WILL be healthy and WILL live long, or WILL be sick and WILL die young. But from a statistical probability standpoint, Based on this very quick and rudimentary, preliminary analysis chances the probability isn't in your pup's favour.

What I'd like to know is, why are you asking this question now, rather than before you get your pup?
Hi just read this post. Wow,wow wow! The info from Artemis is second to none! The only thing I would like to add is that I had a puppy with the dreaded Icarus and Maxim de Altobello in his lines. I lost him in August aged just 2 of DCM. He also had high thyroid problems. His health in fact was pretty poor from day one. He had major behavioural problems, but he was the most loving loyal dog and never showed any aggression to us. My family and myself have been left devastated and feel cheated. I can’t tell you not to buy from that line, but the reality of it is (like Artemis has so brilliantly pointed out) may have a very sad ending like mine. We bought our puppy from a local breeder (a little naively about the pedigree) (a very long story) and if I had of known the proper parentage I would have walked…RAN away! Really do consider Artemis’advice and maybe seek their advice of a healthy line to buy your Pup from. Best of luck and health to your future Pup.
 

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Wow quite the info here! I’m having you guys check my next dog (it will be Dobie) pedigree! 😁 Wish I had my GSD’s ped now didn’t realize so much info was in them! Sadly just her grandparents had real pedigrees done.
 

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Hi just read this post. Wow,wow wow! The info from Artemis is second to none! The only thing I would like to add is that I had a puppy with the dreaded Icarus and Maxim de Altobello in his lines. I lost him in August aged just 2 of DCM. He also had high thyroid problems. His health in fact was pretty poor from day one. He had major behavioural problems, but he was the most loving loyal dog and never showed any aggression to us. My family and myself have been left devastated and feel cheated. I can’t tell you not to buy from that line, but the reality of it is (like Artemis has so brilliantly pointed out) may have a very sad ending like mine. We bought our puppy from a local breeder (a little naively about the pedigree) (a very long story) and if I had of known the proper parentage I would have walked…RAN away! Really do consider Artemis’advice and maybe seek their advice of a healthy line to buy your Pup from. Best of luck and health to your future Pup.
I'm so sorry for the loss of your boy, it's always too soon but 2 is terribly young and I am seeing more and more caes like yours coming out of similar pedigrees in Eastern Europe. There are very few breeders there who are breeding for health and longevity actively, and those who do have a hard time getting away from the influence of the problematic dogs like Maxim, Fedor, Sidor (and when it's not them it's their brothers or common ancestors).

When I say breed for health and longevity, I do not mean simply doing health tests, I mean a breeder who is making conscious mating decisions based on the overall health and longevity in the pedigree and the individual. A breeder who will maybe relinquish on using a dog with better conformation who wins a lot in the ring, in favour of using a more modest or moderate dog but with a much better pedigree for health and longevity. Someone who will rather use a male over the age of 5 as opposed to the hottest young thing at 18 months.
 

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I'm so sorry for the loss of your boy, it's always too soon but 2 is terribly young and I am seeing more and more caes like yours coming out of similar pedigrees in Eastern Europe. There are very few breeders there who are breeding for health and longevity actively, and those who do have a hard time getting away from the influence of the problematic dogs like Maxim, Fedor, Sidor (and when it's not them it's their brothers or common ancestors).

When I say breed for health and longevity, I do not mean simply doing health tests, I mean a breeder who is making conscious mating decisions based on the overall health and longevity in the pedigree and the individual. A breeder who will maybe relinquish on using a dog with better conformation who wins a lot in the ring, in favour of using a more modest or moderate dog but with a much better pedigree for health and longevity. Someone who will rather use a male over the age of 5 as opposed to the hottest young thing at 18 months.
Hi Artemis thank you so much for your kind words. I agree whole heartedly breed for health and longevity. I wish there were more people like you. 👍
 

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Your puppy's dam's paternal side
View attachment 142034



Bright red squares = sudden death
Bright orange = cancer
Reddish-orange (like for Icarus di Altobello) = internal medicine issue or related (kidney/liver/spleen)
Yellow = Bloat
Bright green = accidental death.
What does the purple square that POR Dobrinya has stand for?
 

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What does the purple square that POR Dobrinya has stand for?
Purple is nervous system issues/neuro, including behaviour euths. In Dobrinya's case he had to be euthanized after his spinal decompression surgery for the C4-C5 vertebrae due to abnormal brain swelling.
 
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