[Sidra]

Hello!

Sidra is 8.3 weeks old. When we brought her home (10/4) she looked fine and a few days later her legs started bowing out. We took her to the vet(10/7) and she put her on 250 MG calcium twice a day and a Bayer multivitamin. Her legs were better the next day. Yesterday night (10/13) I noticed her knuckling over. We are going back to the vet tomorrow.

I have read mixed reviews about using calcium for knuckling over and would like your opinion.

Our backyard is sloped between 20-30% would this have a negative impact on her front legs as well? We potty out back and do most of our playing in the flat front yard. We also have all marble floors, which I know are horrid for this problem. I've asked friends what the options are for buying rugs that aren't $200, but we they didn't know of any. So we are working on spending most of our time playing outside, until the inside is safer. Is the problem with the floors mainly until the growth slows down?

I can't wait until we are fully vax'ed so we can go for walks!!

ETA: I don't have anyway to take pictures of her yet, sorry!

 

[RedFawnRising]

I would immediately take your puppy to a different vet, for a second opinion.

Some info for you here:

Knuckling Over and HOD - Developmental Orthopedic Disease | GREATDANELADY.COM

http://www.dobermantalk.com/puppy-c...-deformity-aka-knuckling-over-bowed-legs.html

 

[falnfenix]

a photo would really help, but i'm glad you're going back to the vet. please let your breeder know...assuming they're reputable, they might have suggestions for you.

also, a question: what do you currently feed your puppy?

 

[ACarrigDobermans]

Hello,

Do not give Calcium. Seek a new vet .

This is the best thing to do and you need to start it as soon as you can.

Give Vit C with rose hips 500 mg.
I get it at walmart Spring Valley I think is the brand name. It is for people in the regular vitamin isle. Give a tablet in morning and evening. I also would recommend putting it in the puppies water. Whatever the body does not need they will pee it out

Put your puppy on a low protein adult diet too. 4health lamb or small bites is a good food. I feed my dogs 4health and some are on raw too. You can get 4health at tractor supply.
Common misconception is that puppies need HIGH protein. Puppies do not need all the protein and it is to much for them as you can see for your puppy.

Start this TODAY and your puppy should start to turn around very quickly. With in a few days. Please keep us posted.

 

[mommyblaze3]

Agree with everything RFR and falnfenix said. A lot of vets aren't familiar with the specific ailments of large breeds. where are you located? maybe someone here can suggest a vet to you.

as for cheap carpeting, go to a carpet outlet store and buy remnant. you can get a fairly large remnant - 16 by 14, for 75 to 100 bucks. it may be ugly, but it's just temporary.

 

[alan j.]

Hello,

Do not give Calcium. Seek a new vet .



Give Vit C with rose hips 500 mg.
I get it at walmart Spring Valley I think is the brand name. It is for people in the regular vitamin isle. Give a tablet in morning and evening. I also would recommend putting it in the puppies water. Whatever the body does not need they will pee it out

Put your puppy on a low protein adult diet too. 4health lamb or small bites is a good food. I feed my dogs 4health and some are on raw too. You can get 4health at tractor supply.
Common misconception is that puppies need HIGH protein. Puppies do not need all the protein and it is to much for them as you can see for your puppy.

Why give vitamin C?

 

[ACarrigDobermans]

If you can post pictures we can tell you if it something we have seen or not. Once a breeder brought a litter of puppies to me to socialize for them. Those puppies had bowing front legs and their feet were "loose" like the toes were leaning to the side of their paws. We put them on the regimen I listed above and they came right back together with in a few days. I keep all my puppies on Vit. C and never have had a issue. I have also recommend this to owners who have had the bowing and it fixes them right up

 

[ACarrigDobermans]

Why give vitamin C?

Fast growing puppies, especially the heavy breeds, have considerable pressure on the long bones of the legs while they are growing. The scaffolding of protein and cartilage is laid down at the growth plate and that frame work is soft and will bow to pressure. Behind that frame calcium and phosphorus with other minor minerals use vitamins to make solid bone. Vitamin D gets calcium and phosphorus from the gut into the body and Vitamin C gets calcium and phosphorus into the bone. If the diet is short on any of the vitamins, minor minerals needed or calcium and phosphorus, the puppy is slow to calcify and the frame is still being built; soft bones are the result.


This is a good explanation.

 

[bigfootlives]

Nononononooooo!!

Do NOT give your puppy calcium! This happened to our boy at the same age. We had to switch his food to a lower protein content, roughly 27-32ish% (we fed him Wellness purple bag adult until corrected, forgot what flavor) We also had to limit his exercise and keep him quiet until they straightened out. Our house is purely hardwood which didn't help, I had to lay out several rugs or play with him outside.

I called a dozen vets and NONE knew what this was. They tried to send me to neurologists and specialists and none of them ever knew what I was taking about... Most vets don't. Taking it to someone who is inexperienced with this problem can do more harm than good.

It was so scary and I'm so thankful I caught it early! Our breeder was fabulous in helping us, as well as Shelly (known as Shelaindobe(sp?) on DT).

Lower protein food. Limit exercise. Put down a few rugs. It will correct itself in a couple short weeks if you follow that

 

[alan j.]

Thank you Acarig.

 

[Sidra]

Thank you so much for all the wonderful replies!

I am an Expat in Mexico City, who speaks very little Spanish which makes some things more difficult.

The expats use the same vet, because she speaks some English. Everyone has been happy with her so far. I will check with a few people who are farther away to see if they have a vet who would be a good second opinion.

The Puppy is currently eating half Pedigree puppy and half Members mark all life stages food. We are having a very hard time finding a high quality food, but are open to suggestions!! The Protein is 26/27%

Per your recommendations I will stop using the calcium, and start using vit C. I have some vit C without rose hip, and will start with that as something has to be better than nothing. I will also work on "resting" her a little more. Until I can get some rugs/carpet we will spend playtime mostly outside.

I will work on posting pictures but they are on my husbands phone, so I'm not sure when I will have a moment to download them.

Thank you for all your help!!

 

[RedFawnRising]

Thank you so much for all the wonderful replies!

I am an Expat in Mexico City, who speaks very little Spanish which makes some things more difficult.

The expats use the same vet, because she speaks some English. Everyone has been happy with her so far. I will check with a few people who are farther away to see if they have a vet who would be a good second opinion.

The Puppy is currently eating half Pedigree puppy and half Members mark all life stages food. We are having a very hard time finding a high quality food, but are open to suggestions!! The Protein is 26/27%

Per your recommendations I will stop using the calcium, and start using vit C. I have some vit C without rose hip, and will start with that as something has to be better than nothing. I will also work on "resting" her a little more. Until I can get some rugs/carpet we will spend playtime mostly outside.

I will work on posting pictures but they are on my husbands phone, so I'm not sure when I will have a moment to download them.

Thank you for all your help!!

I understand you have some barriers in finding a better vet and in communication, but please remember that internet "diagnosis" and medical advice is in NO WAY a substitute for appropriate veterinary diagnosis and care.

Did you read those links I posted, yet?

You need to make sure this is truly "knuckling over," and not something more serious like HOD or angular limb deformity, etc.

I would ask your current vet, if they are open to working with client suggestions, if they will please read those links, and work with you on this new information, if you cannot get to a more up-to-date vet's office.

 

[LindaH]

Do not give extra calcium! The calcium phosphorus ratio has to be correct and by adding only calcium you throw the correct ratio in the dog food off.

Do give the vitamin C with rose hips.

Read this in the puppy forum stickies: http://www.dobermantalk.com/puppy-corner/67333-why-overgrowing-your-large-breed-puppy-dangerous.html

Oh...do try to feed a large breed puppy food as they are formulated for a slower controlled growth. Adult food should be okay, too, but Pedigree is not much of a food to feed. Do not feed a regular puppy food as they are formulated for rapid growth.

Don't take her on walks yet. Just let her play till she tires and wants to rest. I would try to keep her off the slick floors as much as possible or provide stable flooring.

Be careful about vaccinations. Try not to give vaccinations like the 7 way. Don't give leptospirosis or kennel cough unless it's a problem in your area. I don't give either unless forced to by conditions or boarding.

Let me see if I can find Dr Dodds vaccination schedule: http://www.dobermantalk.com/doberman-health/27138-dr-w-jean-dodds-latest-vaccination-schedule.html

 

[ShelianDobe]

As everybody has said adding Calcium is a big no-no. I have had luck switching to kibble that is no more than 23% protein, or switching to raw. I feed all of mine raw and we don't have this problem with puppies, however, before I went to a raw diet, I did have a pup that knuckled over and it corrected quickly when I switched her to Wellness Adult. (purple bag). I have recommended this same food to a number of others. including bigfootlives, that had problems with knuckling over, and it has worked in every instance.

I believe that any food with the same or lower protein ratio would work just as well.

 

[gatehouse]

I was told by Pat Hastings that Purina Proplan adult was a food that she recommended switching to when pups were knuckling. I now feed all our pups proplan adult chicken and rice and have not had a problem since. Great Dane Information, Great Danes, Great Dane Lady | Allergies in Dogs, Dog Nutrition, HOD. Growth Problems in Dogs, Yeast, Knuckling Over, Bowed Legs in Dogs is an excellent site to find articles on knuckling over too.

 

[SoCalDobe]

Yes be very wary of adding any minerals to the diet.

Look for a LARGE PUPPY kibble.

I would also be a little cautious of feeding a "low protein" diet and ask for reliable scientific/medical reasons for doing so.

 

[RedFawnRising]

Yes be very wary of adding any minerals to the diet.

Look for a LARGE PUPPY kibble.

I would also be a little cautious of feeding a "low protein" diet and ask for reliable scientific/medical reasons for doing so.

Right, the mineral balance, specifically the calcium-to-phosphorous ratio, is thought to be the issue with growing pups, not the protein content.

 

[SieYa]

Bioavailability is key

This is why some will have issues and others will not...

 

[RedFawnRising]

Any improvement at all with your pup's legs, yet?

Were you able to get in to see a better vet?

 

[mommyblaze3]

As everybody has said adding Calcium is a big no-no. I have had luck switching to kibble that is no more than 23% protein, or switching to raw. I feed all of mine raw and we don't have this problem with puppies, however, before I went to a raw diet, I did have a pup that knuckled over and it corrected quickly when I switched her to Wellness Adult. (purple bag). I have recommended this same food to a number of others. including bigfootlives, that had problems with knuckling over, and it has worked in every instance.

I believe that any food with the same or lower protein ratio would work just as well.

What Wellness should I switch to? There is a purple bag and a lavender colored bag (lav bag is a weight loss/overweight formula)

I assume the purple and not lavender but wanted to double check.

I think Cash has a hint of starting to bow-leg and I want to catch and correct early.