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Discussion Starter #1
We feed our now 18 week (4+ months) puppy kibble (crude fat 17%, crude protein 28%) plus 500 mg Vitamin C, 800 mg Vit E, and 1000 mg fish oil per day. Supplements are split between her meals. (She still gets 3 smaller meals a day).

We just made bone broth for her and are wondering if we should skim the fat off so she doesn't get too much fat in her diet (esp with the vit E and fish oils already added in). It would seem like there are a bunch of wonderful fat soluable vitamins in it so I would hate to throw it away, but we won't use it otherwise.

The broth we made condensed down quite a bit and we are leaving it condensed and going to make broth ice cubes and planning on giving 2 (a little less than 2oz) a meal melted down with enough hot water to soften the food.

I'm new to the supplement/broth world. That said I do want to stick with kibble as the base of her diet.
 

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What kind of bones are they? If it's just a few teaspoons I might not bother but lots of fat can cause loose stools or pancreatitis as you probably already know. LindaH on here has been doing a lot with bone broth on her senior boy so maybe she will chime in. I would not recommend softening dry food for a long period of time as your puppy will get a lot of tartar build up.
 

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I tend to skim a lot of the fat off before I freeze it.
It really depends on how fatty it is. Depending on the bones I've used I often don't have to skim anything off.

I wouldn't soften her food as it will allow bacteria to grow. I put a frozen cube of broth with their meals every night and they have no problem.
 

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Rats, just lost a post re percentage of Vitamn E to fish oil. Briefly, because the guy who is cleaning the gutters just showed up and I promised to help him.

The recommended amount of Vitamin E to fish oil is 200 iu (that's International units--and I think that's how it always measured--not in mg) to 1,000 mg of fish oil. Also Vitamin E almost always is packaged as gel caps and 400 iu per capsule. So you would give 1 E for every 2,000mg of fish oil. I give 1,000 fish oil in the am and one 400 iu E and another 1,000 fish oil in the pm. That maintains the balance.

Vitamin E is fat soluable and you can give too much--800 iu's is far too much E to fish oil.

Also you probably should not start the fish oil until she's through teething--around 6 months.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I only leave it sit for 1-2 minutes. My post wasn't very clear. I add about the amount of liquid needed to "soak" it. She waits so ernestly and nicely that I couldn't fathom making her wait any longer than that. :) It's still rather crunchy but I figure the surrounding liquid makes it more palatable.

We also brush her teeth a couple times a week.

The Vitamin E was as recommended by the breeder. She didn't actually recommend the fish oil, that is just the only one I've ever given to my other dog. Is the Vitamin E too high period, too high in conjunction with the amount of fish oil (i.e. adding fish oil means less vit E), or it's important that the ratios are the same? And are these more true because of her puppy status, or do these doses hold true throughout life?

Why not the fish oil till 6 months?

And with the vitamin C - it is currently as ascorbic acid because ester C has some calcium and I've been well versed on the importance of no added calcium. Which, on a similar note, should I be worried about the added calcium in the bone broth? Do I always need to be worried about calcium, or just when they are a puppy? (And if just during puppyhood, when can I stop worrying about it?)

Oh and I think they were cow bones. My husband got them and simmered them so I'm not sure. I think it was maybe 8 cups of broth and when I poured it into a bowl over an ice bath I took off (and kept for now) about a half cup of fat. They definitely had bits of fat that were left that I strained out and tossed, so there must have been bits of goodness on the bones when they went in.
 

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The Vitamin E was as recommended by the breeder. She didn't actually recommend the fish oil, that is just the only one I've ever given to my other dog. Is the Vitamin E too high period, too high in conjunction with the amount of fish oil (i.e. adding fish oil means less vit E), or it's important that the ratios are the same? And are these more true because of her puppy status, or do these doses hold true throughout life?
Interesting--generally there is enough Vitamin E (which is used as a preservative in many kibbles) in the kibble to take care of any normal nutritional need. I don't add it unless I am giving fish oil. The Vitamin E, in my opinion is too high period--I don't even know where you'd go to find the MDR for Vitamin E for a dog--there are some vet nutritionists around and I expect they would know. Sometimes in breeding animals (I know about it from horses primariy) it is added because d-alpha tocopherol (one of the E Vitamin components is related to repoductive health--and that's been known clear back into the 1950's at least.

Vitamin E is used up in the processing of fish oil and the ratio is supposed to be 200 iu's for every 1,000mg of fish oil. AND if you are giving fish oil you should also be giving Vitamin E--I've read a couple ugly case histories of dogs with mysterious ailments which turned out to be the result of giving theraputic doses of fish oil without Vitamin E.

And you kind of want to pay attention to the balance of the two because the body will accumulate Vitamin E (because it's fat soluable and stored in body fat) and that can cause other problems. The ratio's stay the same throughout life.

So for Vitamin E--IF you are giving fish oil make sure you are adding Vitamin E in the recommended proportions. But if I am not giving fish oil I don't give it at all--ask your breeder why she recommends it--now I'm curious.

Here's the deal on fish oil--I know people give it often because they've heard it's good for the heart. It's also good for the skin but for heart health--there have been some very good studies done in human cardiology. Fish oil will not prevent cardiac issues like those of the Doberman--DCM. But what it will do is help the dog (or human) who has DCM to maintain the best heart health possible once heart disease is present.

Why not the fish oil till 6 months?
Because fish oil also acts as a blood thinner. For scheduled surgeries I stop giving the dog fish oil and Vitamin E for 10 days to two weeks before the surgery. Puppies who have not yet gone through the teething process should probably not be given fish oil until the permanent teeth are in--and it doesn't make any difference what their vWD factor is--vWD is a platelet problem--platelets help blood coagulate. Fish oil thins the blood so it just tends to take longer for it to coagulate. Some puppies do a fair amount of bleeding as they lose the baby teeth--it's a problem that is common enough that it gets asked on these forums fairly often--it fact it came up again recently about teething, bleeding and fish oil. Most puppies are done teething by six months.





And with the vitamin C - it is currently as ascorbic acid because ester C has some calcium and I've been well versed on the importance of no added calcium. Which, on a similar note, should I be worried about the added calcium in the bone broth? Do I always need to be worried about calcium, or just when they are a puppy? (And if just during puppyhood, when can I stop worrying about it?)
Ugh! I don't give Vitamin C--dogs make their own so unless the dog, for some reason is not making his own there really isn't a reason to give it. And I have yet to be convinced that Vitamin C has any particular value in getting cropped ears to stand. But it's water soluable and within reason the puppy will excrete (via urine) any excess Vitamin C.

And about calcium--I don't think you have to worry about the amount of extra calcium the puppy is getting from the bone broth--even though there will be some in the broth the calcium in most bones is held if a pretty solid matrix. The thing that was given in the past was calcium in the form of tablet--often with no phosphorus or too much phosphorus so that the proper balance was wrong and had a potential to do quite a lot of damage to growing puppies. The doses given were often huge. Kibble got better and the manufacturers figured out a lot the things that should be added to kibble to make it nutritional and most of even really poor quality kibble has enough calcium and phosporus that you shouldn't be adding extra.

There probably isn't enough extra calcum in the Ester C to make any difference.

Some of the things that we give dogs these days in the name of improving their health probably aren't necessary--there is still a lot of disagreement between various cardiologists as to whether fish oil actually does what the pro group says it does. But with that at least there are some well designed studies to look at. And some of the stuff that gets labeled "poison" really isn't.

Vitamin C? Unless you are a guinea pig, a fruit bat or human and can't make your own you should be on a diet which povides it--or take it as a suppliment.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
The breeder use to have horses and of course she breeds her dogs, so that could be it. I'll ask next time I see her.

We had decided to give the fish oil to her as much for the coat (we are in a very dry climate) as for any potential heart protection. She started teething early (about 13 weeks) and fortunately hasn't had much bleeding at all. I think I'll cut the dose down by half just to be on the safe side though.

I'll cut down on the Vitamin E for now and ask my vet her thoughts about all three when I go in.

She was a huge fan of the bone broth at breakfast and lunch. She was licking her seemingly empty bowl around the kitchen floor to get every last bit.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Crusties near urethra

I'm not sure if this is related to adding the bone broth in, but we noticed in the last week or two that when Piper pees it looks normal until the very last drop or two which sticks around and gets crusty.

I say normal because it is clear until the end, and varying (within what I would think of as normal) degrees of yellow, no blood anywhere that I've seen (although she pees on bark so I wouldn't necessarily notice it on the ground).

She isn't a heavy drinker -haha, that sounds funny- and otherwise seems to be in great health.

We are big fans of the broth because her stool became more consistently firm as soon as we added it. Probably because of the more consistent stools her full anal gland issues didn't reoccur after the vet drained them the once.

Should I cut out the bone broth? Should I be taking her to the vet posthaste?

On recommendation of the breeder she also gets 500 mg vit C, 400 iu vit E, and then I also do 1000mg fish oil for her skin/coat because we are in an insanely dry climate.
 
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