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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I need more ways or things to train to mentally drain Arrow. So far I've been on YouTube a bit and bookmarked a few things to start teaching, such as actual retrieving and starting scent work, but I need some immediate drills or something that can make her tired. I can run her through her entire repertoire for fifteen minutes and she won't be tired. I can walk her for ages and she'll come back and be ready to go tearing around the house, and I'm getting so exhausted right now with dealing with work as well. She wants to constantly play so badly, and she nips when you don't engage right away, or shoves her ball on you and ends up catching your leg with the ball. I've tried shoving her away or making her sit before engaging but it hasn't done much and I think she's just SO keyed up she needs more of an outlet. I'm going to try and start her in agility too once I can get equipment. If anyone knows if a reasonable portable set, drop a link please that'd be awesome. Any more videos and metal exercises I can do? I need stuff that can wear her out more quickly and not take hours and hours and get nowhere. Pic tax included!

Tricks she knows:
Spin, twirl, sit, down, stay, come (only in training 🙄), shake, wave, crawl, Hup (guard position between legs), Around (circle my one leg from guard position and come back to position), Weave (weave my legs). Working on Figure Eight. 
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I need more ways or things to train to mentally drain Arrow. So far I've been on YouTube a bit and bookmarked a few things to start teaching, such as actual retrieving and starting scent work, but I need some immediate drills or something that can make her tired. I can run her through her entire repertoire for fifteen minutes and she won't be tired. I can walk her for ages and she'll come back and be ready to go tearing around the house, and I'm getting so exhausted right now with dealing with work as well. She wants to constantly play so badly, and she nips when you don't engage right away, or shoves her ball on you and ends up catching your leg with the ball. I've tried shoving her away or making her sit before engaging but it hasn't done much and I think she's just SO keyed up she needs more of an outlet. I'm going to try and start her in agility too once I can get equipment. If anyone knows if a reasonable portable set, drop a link please that'd be awesome. Any more videos and metal exercises I can do? I need stuff that can wear her out more quickly and not take hours and hours and get nowhere. Pic tax included!

Tricks she knows:
Spin, twirl, sit, down, stay, come (only in training 🙄), shake, wave, crawl, Hup (guard position between legs), Around (circle my one leg from guard position and come back to position), Weave (weave my legs). Working on Figure Eight.  View attachment 153128
Arrow...... in reading your post there are several options for you to pursue, and all within the daily training 'regimen' that you are currently engaged in. You might be misreading Arrow's behaviour as being a 'pain in the butt' when she is expressing enthusiasm — read DRIVE— as what you appear to consider as annoying.

Fight fire with fire in the sense of using her prey drive to expend her energy and hence satiate her drive to exhaustion. Prey drive WILL DIMINISH on a descending scale the longer the drive is engaged. Meaning that meaningful physical engagement is required. Physical activity need only encompass a game of tug but with a purpose of it being a PRIMARY REINFORCER as in REWARD for COMPLIANCE. The following what I suggest from here on in is contingent of physical ability to engage in tug, as a heightened game of tug with a large breed is strenuous and not lower-back or knee friendly.🧐🥊

Therefore in your 15 minute 'trick' training routine as outlined in your post then instead of intermittent random food reward for an exercise well done then transfer/exchange the food reward if currently being used for compliance, to a game of tug using a ball-on-rope. Since Arrow is initiating play by enthusiastically “shoving the ball” into you then capitalize on that expression of her behaviour.

Get creative in the indoor training doing retrieves up and down stairs. Lay out a food scent track indoors or outdoors, (allow Arrow to accompany at first) and with her favourite tug toy placed/hidden in a distant room surround it by a 'jackpot' of half dozen pieces of high value food reward which become the PRIMARY REINFORCER upon the finding of the toy relating to the “search” command. — Several pieces of food reward ('jackpot') requiring additional time to consume are more impactful in positive reinforcement than an instantaneous one gulp of the same number of food pieces. — The game of tug becomes both a PRIMARY and SECONDARY REINFORCER upon culmination of the “bring” the tug toy to hand.

In order to lay out a motivating scented foot trail for Arrow to 'track' then a slight smudge of the high value food ( as used in the 'jackpot') scent rubbed to the soles of shoes leaves an inducing scent trail that will incite prey drive and hopefully a 'trailing' nose in the air form of “search “ will result. If all goes as planned then end with a game of tug. You will most likely require another a secondary 🏀 on a rope to redirect interest back to you in order that Arrow will “out” the initial toy if 'keep-away' creeps in.

If the ball on rope generates enthusiasm then treat it as a prime motivator to incite any behaviour that might be impossible with food as in opening and closing a door as wanted for entertainment or more importantly needed in the duties of a handler mobility-dependent service dog. Loop the ball on a rope over the doorknob and instinctively the response will be automatic. An addition to Arrow's repertoire of doggy 'trix'.

If hurdles and retrieves are of interest as you outlined in your post then motivation and introduction to hurdle an object is easily induced with the ball on rope. If restricted to indoors because of inclement wintery weather then choose a doorway opening separating two ample sized rooms to allow a short sprint and jump. Place a low 1 or 2 ft. high barrier (chair on its side, ottoman, piano bench, cardboard box etc.etc.) in the opening. Incite drive to engage by animating the motivating tug toy and in one flelling scoop lob it over the hurdle accompanied simultaneously with the command “hup”. Stand back and applaud gleefully 👏👏 when airborne. Seriously! Pay no heed to onlookers especially those with raised eyebrows and continue the fun. I think you know the remainder of the drill. In response to agility equipment — Amazon has backyard durable budget friendly 'stuff'.

Hopefully you won't be evicted for the commotion creating disturbances — that I flamboyantly suggested—in exercising of the foremetioned 'drills'🧐
Mike
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
AM, did you see the June thread about Andy Krueger's Go-Around Training?
Sharing great 5 min mental/physical challenge | Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums (dobermantalk.com)


Andy Krueger’s Go-Around Training (to tire out high energy dogs in 5-minutes)


Neo’s Go Around Training Practice – 5 Sept 22 (first video attempt)
That's one of the videos I have bookmarked! Hoping to start that today, I also am going to try his method of training retrieve/fetch. That would be so nice to have her bring it back 😅
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Arrow...... in reading your post there are several options for you to pursue, and all within the daily training 'regimen' that you are currently engaged in. You might be misreading Arrow's behaviour as being a 'pain in the butt' when she is expressing enthusiasm — read DRIVE— as what you appear to consider as annoying.

Fight fire with fire in the sense of using her prey drive to expend her energy and hence satiate her drive to exhaustion. Prey drive WILL DIMINISH on a descending scale the longer the drive is engaged. Meaning that meaningful physical engagement is required. Physical activity need only encompass a game of tug but with a purpose of it being a PRIMARY REINFORCER as in REWARD for COMPLIANCE. The following what I suggest from here on in is contingent of physical ability to engage in tug, as a heightened game of tug with a large breed is strenuous and not lower-back or knee friendly.🧐🥊

Therefore in your 15 minute 'trick' training routine as outlined in your post then instead of intermittent random food reward for an exercise well done then transfer/exchange the food reward if currently being used for compliance, to a game of tug using a ball-on-rope. Since Arrow is initiating play by enthusiastically “shoving the ball” into you then capitalize on that expression of her behaviour.

Get creative in the indoor training doing retrieves up and down stairs. Lay out a food scent track indoors or outdoors, (allow Arrow to accompany at first) and with her favourite tug toy placed/hidden in a distant room surround it by a 'jackpot' of half dozen pieces of high value food reward which become the PRIMARY REINFORCER upon the finding of the toy relating to the “search” command. — Several pieces of food reward ('jackpot') requiring additional time to consume are more impactful in positive reinforcement than an instantaneous one gulp of the same number of food pieces. — The game of tug becomes both a PRIMARY and SECONDARY REINFORCER upon culmination of the “bring” the tug toy to hand.

In order to lay out a motivating scented foot trail for Arrow to 'track' then a slight smudge of the high value food ( as used in the 'jackpot') scent rubbed to the soles of shoes leaves an inducing scent trail that will incite prey drive and hopefully a 'trailing' nose in the air form of “search “ will result. If all goes as planned then end with a game of tug. You will most likely require another a secondary 🏀 on a rope to redirect interest back to you in order that Arrow will “out” the initial toy if 'keep-away' creeps in.

If the ball on rope generates enthusiasm then treat it as a prime motivator to incite any behaviour that might be impossible with food as in opening and closing a door as wanted for entertainment or more importantly needed in the duties of a handler mobility-dependent service dog. Loop the ball on a rope over the doorknob and instinctively the response will be automatic. An addition to Arrow's repertoire of doggy 'trix'.

If hurdles and retrieves are of interest as you outlined in your post then motivation and introduction to hurdle an object is easily induced with the ball on rope. If restricted to indoors because of inclement wintery weather then choose a doorway opening separating two ample sized rooms to allow a short sprint and jump. Place a low 1 or 2 ft. high barrier (chair on its side, ottoman, piano bench, cardboard box etc.etc.) in the opening. Incite drive to engage by animating the motivating tug toy and in one flelling scoop lob it over the hurdle accompanied simultaneously with the command “hup”. Stand back and applaud gleefully 👏👏 when airborne. Seriously! Pay no heed to onlookers especially those with raised eyebrows and continue the fun. I think you know the remainder of the drill. In response to agility equipment — Amazon has backyard durable budget friendly 'stuff'.

Hopefully you won't be evicted for the commotion creating disturbances — that I flamboyantly suggested—in exercising of the foremetioned 'drills'🧐
Mike
Sadly every time I order from Amazon my card gets hacked, so I no longer use them. Are there any places you an suggest to get a really strong ball on a rope or a bite tug that Arrow won't demolish? I'm thinking leerburg, but I also don't want to spend $30+ on a toy that she'll destroy in two chomps.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Success for day one at least, I rigged up a few jumps in the backyard for her and she actually wasn't scared of them lol. Did some of her regular repertoire, and started on that Around cue like that video. She loves to basically do bitework with the rubber tug toy I had, and idk how I forgot I don't have to actually give her the toy completely. I blame it on the stress and mental exhaustion of work. Come was going along better and she actually was able to be off leash and heeled back into the house where we did another hearty game of tug to reinforce going inside as continuing the fun. The one time I called her from a down stay she came running and grabbed that tug and ended up flipping around completely like one of those Malinois going after a decoy. 😳 She's honestly got so much potential and I feel kinda bad she's stuck with me, because I will probably never take her as far as she could go.
 

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Sadly every time I order from Amazon my card gets hacked, so I no longer use them. Are there any places you an suggest to get a really strong ball on a rope or a bite tug that Arrow won't demolish? I'm thinking leerburg, but I also don't want to spend $30+ on a toy that she'll destroy in two chomps.
Tug toys are used for training only ....they do last
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Tug toys are used for training only ....they do last
Ball on ropes I've used before off chewy only for tug training only last her maybe a week before the rope part is chewed in half and the ball is off because her teeth are so sharp. Anything she bites has to be hard enough she can't get chunks ripped off if it's plastic, and "chew proof" material tugs she has ripped open in a single play session. 🤦‍♀️ So even saving them, they still don't last her long, I've got one hard rubber thing left and she just ripped one of the ropes off tonight, her fave part. Thankfully even without the ropes it will still be intact, it's just def seen better days.
 

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I like tugs shaped like this:





The figure 8 design makes it harder for them to come up the toy and get your hand, even if they don't grab it in quite the way you would expect. It's just hard rubber and wouldn't survive a good chewing, but my dogs are really only allowed tug toys when I'm on the other end pulling.

Avoid all rope tugs unless you are closely supervising. A dog that chews off strands of rope and swallows them is at risk for a nasty kind of obstruction--here is how it is described on a veterinary website:

"This brings us to a discussion about rope toys. Thin strands of rope are very dangerous when swallowed. Categorized by vets as a “linear foreign body,” rope is just about the most dangerous object your dog can swallow. As one part of a long piece of rope toy remains stuck in the stomach, the other half enters the intestines, cinching like a drawstring on a pair of sweatpants as the digestive system attempts to pass the string through the body.

This causes the intestines to be drawn into a tight ball. As you can imagine, this is very painful for your dog. The tightening can do permanent damage to the intestines, sometimes even creating painful lacerations as the rope cuts into the intestine walls"
 

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Ball on ropes I've used before off chewy only for tug training only last her maybe a week before the rope part is chewed in half and the ball is off because her teeth are so sharp. Anything she bites has to be hard enough she can't get chunks ripped off if it's plastic, and "chew proof" material tugs she has ripped open in a single play session. 🤦‍♀️ So even saving them, they still don't last her long, I've got one hard rubber thing left and she just ripped one of the ropes off tonight, her fave part. Thankfully even without the ropes it will still be intact, it's just def seen better days.
Arrow ...... If your GS is targeting only the rope then directing her to an intended 'mouthful' of tug toy then try applying this strategy be it a bite roll or ball. Attach a 30 ft. X 1 inch wide cotton tracking line ( cotton is easy on the hands negating possible friction burn to bare palm) to the ball on a rope or the linen tug. To induce targeting the 'bulk' portion of the toy then toss out the line attached toy and rapidly retract it resembling a fleeting prey. Instinctively Arrow will target the easily grip-able larger portion and not the rope or bite roll handles.

I buy tennis balls by the sleeve and rope by the yard ( cost efficient as opposed to the 20 buck ready made ball-on-a-rope versions) and when I require a replacement ball on rope then drilling a 1/4 hole through the center and out the far side center allows ample room to pull a 1/4 inch diameter rope through. A wire lead to thread a rope through the drilled openings to pull the short length of rope. Loop a handle knot and another knot at the entrance opening of the ball to lock the rope from slipping through. It'll save you the 20 or 30 bucks Mr. Leerburg and other suppliers command

Are they durable??? I get loads of 'yardage' in daily multiple time usage before they become useless. The composition of the surface of a tennis ball is abrasive so sparse usage for reward only and
NEVER EVER leave the tennis ball toy unattended and substituted as a random chew toy such a durable Kong. If the abrasion factor of the felt is an issue then discard the fore-mentioned.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I like tugs shaped like this:





The figure 8 design makes it harder for them to come up the toy and get your hand, even if they don't grab it in quite the way you would expect. It's just hard rubber and wouldn't survive a good chewing, but my dogs are really only allowed tug toys when I'm on the other end pulling.

Avoid all rope tugs unless you are closely supervising. A dog that chews off strands of rope and swallows them is at risk for a nasty kind of obstruction--here is how it is described on a veterinary website:

"This brings us to a discussion about rope toys. Thin strands of rope are very dangerous when swallowed. Categorized by vets as a “linear foreign body,” rope is just about the most dangerous object your dog can swallow. As one part of a long piece of rope toy remains stuck in the stomach, the other half enters the intestines, cinching like a drawstring on a pair of sweatpants as the digestive system attempts to pass the string through the body.

This causes the intestines to be drawn into a tight ball. As you can imagine, this is very painful for your dog. The tightening can do permanent damage to the intestines, sometimes even creating painful lacerations as the rope cuts into the intestine walls"
That's pretty much exactly what the toy looks like, except it's got holes on the inside that had two big ropes threaded through it. I'm always watching her with them, and now that they're finally loose enough to pull out the last one will also be in the trash can. I bought the toy for the rubber portion, it just so happened to have the rope weaving in the middle. It's from back when she actually got big rope toys, and then she started ripping them up so those all went away.
 

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Arrow ...... If your GS is targeting only the rope then directing her to an intended 'mouthful' of tug toy then try applying this strategy be it a bite roll or ball. Attach a 30 ft. X 1 inch wide cotton tracking line ( cotton is easy on the hands negating possible friction burn to bare palm) to the ball on a rope or the linen tug. To induce targeting the 'bulk' portion of the toy then toss out the line attached toy and rapidly retract it resembling a fleeting prey. Instinctively Arrow will target the easily grip-able larger portion and not the rope or bite roll handles.
I don't often disagree with you MikeP but I need to about using cotton line. Cotton absorbs water like a sponge and 1 " line even in short lengths weigh's like lead when wet. (To say nothing of the difficulty in finding cotton line--it's vanishing breed). I'd suggest investing in a good pair of leather gloves with padded palms and polypro line--which doesn't absorb water at all it a lot lighter than cotton in any form of braid and the gloves with save your hands.

dobebug
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I don't often disagree with you MikeP but I need to about using cotton line. Cotton absorbs water like a sponge and 1 " line even in short lengths weigh's like lead when wet. (To say nothing of the difficulty in finding cotton line--it's vanishing breed). I'd suggest investing in a good pair of leather gloves with padded palms and polypro line--which doesn't absorb water at all it a lot lighter than cotton in any form of braid and the gloves with save your hands.

dobebug
I'm hoping to find a good ten foot leather long line. I've got 25 and 30 foot nylon ones, but I like leather with Arrow. Also still need to get around to ordering some gripping palm gloves for this winter. This is a frugal month for extra dog supplies since I bought myself a bird I've wanted for forever😅
 

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I don't often disagree with you MikeP but I need to about using cotton line. Cotton absorbs water like a sponge and 1 " line even in short lengths weigh's like lead when wet. (To say nothing of the difficulty in finding cotton line--it's vanishing breed). I'd suggest investing in a good pair of leather gloves with padded palms and polypro line--which doesn't absorb water at all it a lot lighter than cotton in any form of braid and the gloves with save your hands.

dobebug
Hi dobebug ...... thank you for the constructive critique as you see flaws in my post and also for providing me the opportunity to express why my suggestion went in the direction of using a wide cotton line.The context of my post was pertaining to in-house indoor and backyard training. Having said that, then what you write is factual regarding the increased weight when a cotton tracking line becomes soaking wet. The weight factor was never an issue for me as it could be for someone else therefore you make a valid point, but poly, it too comes with a less than ideal quality in wet conditions as discussed in the next paragraph. Regarding availability of cotton tracking lines ? They are still available through working-dog-specific outlets Tracking line as opposed to pet store outlets and amazon.

Tracking and long restraining lines —needless to write — are available in 1/2 - 1 inch flat and varying diameter rope-like X-sections in varying compositions to suit the preference and budget of the handler. The plastic composition of biothane/polypropylene no doubt are functional yet become 'slippery-er 'n an eel' when wet — that can be a deciding issue — whereas cotton when either dry or wet IMHO provides far better grip — bare handed or gloved, wet or dry. Therein lies the 'trade-off'.

IMHO then, choice of training gear boils down to handler preference hinging on “will the training equipment when exposed to expected conditions benefit or hinder” the training objective. Nevertheless In my differing respectfully, your point is always “well taken”.

In the common bond of Dobermans ......Mike
 

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I'm hoping to find a good ten foot leather long line. I've got 25 and 30 foot nylon ones, but I like leather with Arrow. Also still need to get around to ordering some gripping palm gloves for this winter. This is a frugal month for extra dog supplies since I bought myself a bird I've wanted for forever😅
Arrow - I have several tracking leads (leather) from Schafer Kennel Pet Supplies. If they can hold Sypha during Nosework, they can hold Arrow! They are lightweight and strong, and they come in a variety of lengths. The shortest one I have is 15 feet, but they probably have a 10 foot lead, too. Product List For Schafer Kennel Pet Supplies Pricing is extremely reasonable.
 

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Another option to consider: biothane. Can be had fairly inexpensively and in several long lengths.
 
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Another option to consider: biothane. Can be had fairly inexpensively and in several long lengths.
Biothane tends to be super slippery when it gets wet, though. A friend of mine uses these Grip-It Long Lines for her Labs when doing nosework. She has super high drive working/field bred dogs that pull like freight trains.
 

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Biothane tends to be super slippery when it gets wet, though. A friend of mine uses these Grip-It Long Lines for her Labs when doing nosework. She has super high drive working/field bred dogs that pull like freight trains.
That's why I use leather with Sypha ...I simply can't keep hold of her well in rain or snow. Leather works awesome for her. Biothane was always fine with Richter.
 
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