[DovahMuuliik]

Hey Everyone,

I've had Dobermanns since I was a kid and have loved the breed my whole life. I have always wanted to become a breeder to better the breed and produce Europe Line Dobies geared towards protection. After doing immense research, I have come to see that the breed is infested with DCM. Every single line seems to have it and there seems to be no end to it. I know there are genetic programs trying to solve this problem but have not yet succeeded.

DCM has made me want to not breed Dobies nor get one because I don't think I'd be able to stand losing my Dobie at a young age. Longevity and breed Health is of importance to me and I am wondering if maybe any of you know of lines without this disease or know of lines who have produced countless dogs who live to the age of 10 and above?

I am torn between this breed and another mainly because of health issues/ longevity of the Dobermann breed.

 

[Fitzmar Dobermans]

Testing - cardiac ultrasounds and 24 hour Holter monitors are the only way to check for DCM and we do it regularly. DNA dcm testing is interesting - but not indicative of disease. Knowing the line and the general longevity is also important. You are right that there are no lines without DCM - it’s in the breed. Being a breeder can be heartbreaking - I’ve had 3 litters.
In the same litter, I’ve had one die of sudden death at age 8, one of cancer at age 2, and others still fine at 11. You just never know.

 

[DovahMuuliik]

Testing - cardiac ultrasounds and 24 hour Holter monitors are the only way to check for DCM and we do it regularly. DNA dcm testing is interesting - but not indicative of disease. Knowing the line and the general longevity is also important. You are right that there are no lines without DCM - it’s in the breed. Being a breeder can be heartbreaking - I’ve had 3 litters.
In the same litter, I’ve had one die of sudden death at age 8, one of cancer at age 2, and others still fine at 11. You just never know.

Thank you so much for replying. The worst part is you're right about the never knowing when it comes to the health of the pups. Because the thing is that the dam and sire might've been completely healthy and living till 10 or 11 but then suddenly die of DCM even at that old age of which by then one has already bred them multiple times. I thought about doing it this way. Getting a male, having his semen frozen and then letting him live till old age and see if DCM develops because I know that DCM seems to effect or be passed down predominantly by the male. It would obviously take so much time to breed this way and we as humans don't live that long either.

 

[DovahMuuliik]

Thank you so much for replying. The worst part is you're right about the never knowing when it comes to the health of the pups. Because the thing is that the dam and sire might've been completely healthy and living till 10 or 11 but then suddenly die of DCM even at that old age of which by then one has already bred them multiple times. I thought about doing it this way. Getting a male, having his semen frozen and then letting him live till old age and see if DCM develops because I know that DCM seems to effect or be passed down predominantly by the male. It would obviously take so much time to breed this way and we as humans don't live that long either.

I wanted to ask, do you know of any place where I can study the pedigrees of this breed? Where every single dog is listed or at least a majority are with reasons of death?

 

[Isra]

I wanted to ask, do you know of any place where I can study the pedigrees of this breed? Where every single dog is listed or at least a majority are with reasons of death?

I don't think there is a database with every single dog there is, but, I think Dobermanns` base is one of the most used databases, a lot of Euro dobes, including the most important, are listed there with dates of birth and death and causes of death, siblings, offspring, etc. You can also find a lot of American (and Latinamerican) dobes there.
For American line the most important database, I think, is Dobequest:Dog Search Page.
And then there are others such as working-dog - Hunde, Videos, Meisterschaften, Stammbäume, Kontaktdaten, Bilder und vieles mehr which is an all-breed database, with a lot of information on a lot of breeds, and a lot of Dobermans.

Bad thing is that the information in public databases depends on the transparency of the dog owners, so you can find a lot of information, but also a lot of information is lacking.

 

[dobebug]

Just for the record I don't think there is really any proof that DCM is passed along primarily via the male. And one of the gotcha's with not breeding to a living dog but collecting him and using the semen only for dogs that have lived long lives and have not died of DCM is that you are then creating an artificial "famous dog syndrome" situation. And you probably know (or maybe you don't) that in many cases dogs who were dx'd with DCM after they had been bred often had very long lived offspring who did not have DCM at young ages and sometimes died of something entirely unrelated to DCM.

Probably the best we can do is to make sure that the breeders we deal with are at least trying to use dogs from lines with known long lived dogs but it's not like you are going to find any line with no DCM--I think, that the genetics people I've talked to over the years have told me that the DCM issue was probably present in the the mutts used to create the breed.

I got my first Doberman in 1959 and actually had a diagnosis of DCM which had already reached the point where he was in active congestive heart failure (at 9.5) at that time it was rare that anyone really knew just how widespread DCM was in the breed. But I continued to have Dobes and most of them did not die from DCM--even though most were known to be dogs with cardio problems by the mid 1990's.I didn't stop having Dobes--all purebreds (and for that matter most dogs, purebred or not) have issues--if you want something that is very long lived, dogs in the range of size of a Shetland Sheepdog are most likely to be long lived.

I applaud your desire to "fix" the cardio issue in the Doberman but I don't think it's likely to happen anytime soon.

dobebug

 

[DovahMuuliik]

I don't think there is a database with every single dog there is, but, I think Dobermanns` base is one of the most used databases, a lot of Euro dobes, including the most important, are listed there with dates of birth and death and causes of death, siblings, offspring, etc. You can also find a lot of American (and Latinamerican) dobes there.
For American line the most important database, I think, is Dobequest:Dog Search Page.
And then there are others such as working-dog - Hunde, Videos, Meisterschaften, Stammbäume, Kontaktdaten, Bilder und vieles mehr which is an all-breed database, with a lot of information on a lot of breeds, and a lot of Dobermans.

Bad thing is that the information in public databases depends on the transparency of the dog owners, so you can find a lot of information, but also a lot of information is lacking.

Thank you so much, I'll take a look at those

 

[greenkouki]

You've had dobermans from a young age so what has been your experience with DCM so far? Have you had good luck so far? and where were your dogs from?

 

[DovahMuuliik]

Just for the record I don't think there is really any proof that DCM is passed along primarily via the male. And one of the gotcha's with not breeding to a living dog but collecting him and using the semen only for dogs that have lived long lives and have not died of DCM is that you are then creating an artificial "famous dog syndrome" situation. And you probably know (or maybe you don't) that in many cases dogs who were dx'd with DCM after they had been bred often had very long lived offspring who did not have DCM at young ages and sometimes died of something entirely unrelated to DCM.

Probably the best we can do is to make sure that the breeders we deal with are at least trying to use dogs from lines with known long lived dogs but it's not like you are going to find any line with no DCM--I think, that the genetics people I've talked to over the years have told me that the DCM issue was probably present in the the mutts used to create the breed.

I got my first Doberman in 1959 and actually had a diagnosis of DCM which had already reached the point where he was in active congestive heart failure (at 9.5) at that time it was rare that anyone really knew just how widespread DCM was in the breed. But I continued to have Dobes and most of them did not die from DCM--even though most were known to be dogs with cardio problems by the mid 1990's.I didn't stop having Dobes--all purebreds (and for that matter most dogs, purebred or not) have issues--if you want something that is very long lived, dogs in the range of size of a Shetland Sheepdog are most likely to be long lived.

I applaud your desire to "fix" the cardio issue in the Doberman but I don't think it's likely to happen anytime soon.

dobebug

Yeah I have seen that occur where it's kinda like rolling the dice, DCM Parent still produces offspring that live long, non DCM parents create offspring that suddenly die of DCM. Unfortunately I am not into smaller dogs, I like big dogs so will stick to a Doberman or some other protection breed. The thing that I know though is that DCM can be genetic or malnutrition, specifically Taurine deficiency. So far I have comprised a nutrition plan to factor out DCM in nutrition (It's based on a Newfoundland dog Breeder who also struggled with DCM in the Newfie Breed) but as for the genetic part, the only option right now seems to be studying pedigree. I wish more geneticists would get involved, I always thought that with today's technology like Crispr there might be a way if we can determine the gene or genes. I have looked into human DCM too to find similarities and am currently doing more research on genetics.

 

[DovahMuuliik]

You've had dobermans from a young age so what has been your experience with DCM so far? Have you had good luck so far? and where were your dogs from?

None of our dogs died of DCM, they all lived to an old age. They were from South Africa as that's where I grew up. My aunt's dog did die mysteriously one night and I suspect that must've been DCM (Her dobe was from a reputable breeder). My grandfather's Dobe (was a rescue from a backyard breeder) died because of the stomach twisting from playing after eating but that's it. Overall Dobe's in SA are healthy, I have been to shows etc and have not heard of DCM being a problem. All SA dogs come from old Europe lines. I only heard of DCM recently, I didn't realize it's such a huge problem until about a year or 2 ago when I saw posts coming up on Facebook in groups. I even remember showing South African dobe breeders at the show pictures of Dobermans from the US, they were all surprised about how the American Dobes look and had never seen those dobes before. we all thought they were stunning by the way.

 

[melbrod]

I believe they think that in the Doberman, the basis of DCM is genetic--that it is not really related to the kind of taurine deficiency heart problems you see in some other dog breeds (and for that matter, in cats). There has recently been talk that the dobe version of DCM has an autoimmune component.

I know that they have observed taurine problems in Newfies, Saint Bernards, Wolfhounds, various setters and retrievers...but not in Dobermans (or very rarely.) And I know that some of the talk around whether grain free foods are problematic is based on their low taurine levels--again, there is not that much evidence that those foods can cause taurine problems in the doberman, but I wouldn't feed grain-free just to be on the safe side.

There have been some genetic studies trying to identify marker genes (not those necessarily actually causing the development of the disease) which are associated with doberman DCM which could be used for advance testing. They have actually come up with a couple (called DCM1 and DCM2 in testing), but the linkage is rather shaky (a dog can be positive for one or both and not develop DCM; he can be negative for both and still have DCM.) DCM is apparently due to the interaction of multiple genes, so really all those DCM gene tests are is an academic baby step toward figuring out what is actually going on.

Just as a warning--some breeders will say that their dogs are DCM free and point to negative DCM1 and 2 tests--but no line is free of it, and the DCM1 and 2 tests are not really predictive of the disease. The best we can do at the moment are yearly 24 hour holters and sonograms on our breeding dogs (and your pets, to catch the disease before the dog has symptoms and start treating it--that leads to better results), and bloodline research for longevity. Any early death, especially a sudden one, is a little suspect even if you don't have actual postmortems that ID DCM, so you can at least look for that in your research.

 

[DovahMuuliik]

I believe they think that in the Doberman, the basis of DCM is genetic--that it is not really related to the kind of taurine deficiency heart problems you see in some other dog breeds (and for that matter, in cats). There has recently been talk that the dobe version of DCM has an autoimmune component.

I know that they have observed taurine problems in Newfies, Saint Bernards, Wolfhounds, various setters and retrievers...but not in Dobermans (or very rarely.) And I know that some of the talk around whether grain free foods are problematic is based on their low taurine levels--again, there is not that much evidence that those foods can cause taurine problems in the doberman, but I wouldn't feed grain-free just to be on the safe side.

There have been some genetic studies trying to identify marker genes (not those necessarily actually causing the development of the disease) which are associated with doberman DCM which could be used for advance testing. They have actually come up with a couple (called DCM1 and DCM2 in testing), but the linkage is rather shaky (a dog can be positive for one or both and not develop DCM; he can be negative for both and still have DCM.) DCM is apparently due to the interaction of multiple genes, so really all those DCM gene tests are is an academic baby step toward figuring out what is actually going on.

Just as a warning--some breeders will say that their dogs are DCM free and point to negative DCM1 and 2 tests--but no line is free of it, and the DCM1 and 2 tests are not really predictive of the disease. The best we can do at the moment are yearly 24 hour holters and sonograms on our breeding dogs (and your pets, to catch the disease before the dog has symptoms and start treating it--that leads to better results), and bloodline research for longevity. Any early death, especially a sudden one, is a little suspect even if you don't have actual postmortems that ID DCM, so you can at least look for that in your research.

Very Interesting, I didn't know there were studies on Taurine deficiencies in specific breeds, i'll definitely look into that more and don't worry I believe dogs should have a balanced diet from both sides. I read about the Doberman Diversity Project and it's too bad that the linkage is a bit shaky like that. It does make sense that an interaction is what's causing the DCM. Thank you so much for your advice, i'll be sure to follow it when I do my research. I did find some breeders who aren't big commercials and who were really hard to find over the internet that are here in Europe. All their dogs are tested yearly and the dogs longevity looks good + their dogs are used in sport and as police, service etc. Will just keep searching and doing deep research cause I am finding it hard to move away from this wonderful breed. I have had other breeds too and I'll be honest, nothing comes close to Dobermans for me.

 

[greenkouki]

None of our dogs died of DCM, they all lived to an old age. They were from South Africa as that's where I grew up. My aunt's dog did die mysteriously one night and I suspect that must've been DCM (Her dobe was from a reputable breeder). My grandfather's Dobe (was a rescue from a backyard breeder) died because of the stomach twisting from playing after eating but that's it. Overall Dobe's in SA are healthy, I have been to shows etc and have not heard of DCM being a problem. All SA dogs come from old Europe lines. I only heard of DCM recently, I didn't realize it's such a huge problem until about a year or 2 ago when I saw posts coming up on Facebook in groups. I even remember showing South African dobe breeders at the show pictures of Dobermans from the US, they were all surprised about how the American Dobes look and had never seen those dobes before. we all thought they were stunning by the way.

Interesting. So where are you now? You will find more health testing in Western Europe and the USA than elsewhere.

 

[dobebug]

None of our dogs died of DCM, they all lived to an old age. They were from South Africa as that's where I grew up. My aunt's dog did die mysteriously one night and I suspect that must've been DCM (Her dobe was from a reputable breeder). My grandfather's Dobe (was a rescue from a backyard breeder) died because of the stomach twisting from playing after eating but that's it. Overall Dobe's in SA are healthy, I have been to shows etc and have not heard of DCM being a problem. All SA dogs come from old Europe lines. I only heard of DCM recently, I didn't realize it's such a huge problem until about a year or 2 ago when I saw posts coming up on Facebook in groups. I even remember showing South African dobe breeders at the show pictures of Dobermans from the US, they were all surprised about how the American Dobes look and had never seen those dobes before. we all thought they were stunning by the way.

I think that SA Dobermans were fairly uncommon not many years ago--and as far as not hearing about DCM? I can show you magazine (Doberman mags) clear back into the 40's where the advertising often had memorials to dogs who had died young (no known cause and suddenly) Looking back from the information a lot of those dogs appeared to have been cardiac cases. But even when I got my first Doberman (1959) you did not hear about DCM--I had a dx on my dog only because a friend (a veterinarian) stopped by my parents on his way home from a dog show to visit with them and see that dog who was living out his retirement with them--that vet heard him cough--got out his stethascope and told them to take them into their vet--it sounded like CHF (often last stage of DCM). They did that and one of the vets in the practice had been a track vet for 10 years and he listened and said the dogs lungs lungs were full of fluid and put him on meds to dry him out--because that's what they used to do with horses who fairly frequently had similar problems after hard racing. There was almost nothing else anyone could do for a cardio dog at that time. It was well into the 1990's before anyone was seriously looking at Doberman cardio.

Both medication and information about the type of cardio Dobes have come a long way in the last 30 years. Not just in Dobes--there is a version of DCM in people and they've been looking at the genetics for a good many years now--the last time I looked at it they were up to about 22 or 23 genes that they thought were in part responsible for the disease in people. This is clearly a polygenetic disease and it makes it very difficult to claim that the Dobeman disease is caused by one specific gene or two.

And I'll also add that basically all the North American and Canadian Dobes were originally from old European stock. And even quite recently the German breeders (in particular) were claiming they didn't have cardio in their lines. It was not true and they finally had to acknowledge they had as big problem as any other groups of Dobermans.

Over the years I've had a lot of Dobes--of those dogs I've really only had two that actually died of DCM. One was my first and his was a classic progression into CHF--which is what killed him the other was a fairly recent dog who was a sudden death case--he was a couple of months shy of ten--he'd been at an Agility trial in the morning and came home all bouncy and then sat down and turned to see why--and I knew that he was in trouble. That dog had been followed by a cardiologist since he was two-- he had yearly Holters and echos done--by the time he was seven we could see that he was having v-tach events and we started doing the Holters and echos twice a year. At 8 he was on benazapril and by 9 he was also on Vetmedin. He still ran agility--and his cardiologist was OK with that because the prospects of him being a sudden death dog were good--and that can occur in their sleep, in their back yard it wasn't going to be the activity that killed him and he loved agility. He wasn't a dog I could turn into a quiet invalid. I lost him on the way to his vet.

But virtually all of the dogs I had from 1995 to the present have developed cardio as they aged--some of them lived to be over ten and my last boy lived to 14--but it wasn't cardio that killed them and I took them to our vet and let them go peacefully when the things that were going wrong made their life a burden for them instead of a joy.

I suspect that SA probably has DCM just as we have but that it isn't recognized just as it wasn't recognized here often--dogs died--suddenly, in their sleep or in their back yard and the cause 40 or 50 years ago simply wasn't recognized.

Now at least we have meds and protocols that can give a Doberman with even a serious condition a pretty good life span--and they can live comfortably.

dobebug

 

[Isra]

None of our dogs died of DCM, they all lived to an old age. They were from South Africa as that's where I grew up. My aunt's dog did die mysteriously one night and I suspect that must've been DCM (Her dobe was from a reputable breeder). My grandfather's Dobe (was a rescue from a backyard breeder) died because of the stomach twisting from playing after eating but that's it. Overall Dobe's in SA are healthy, I have been to shows etc and have not heard of DCM being a problem. All SA dogs come from old Europe lines. I only heard of DCM recently, I didn't realize it's such a huge problem until about a year or 2 ago when I saw posts coming up on Facebook in groups. I even remember showing South African dobe breeders at the show pictures of Dobermans from the US, they were all surprised about how the American Dobes look and had never seen those dobes before. we all thought they were stunning by the way.

I think that SA Dobermans were fairly uncommon not many years ago--and as far as not hearing about DCM? I can show you magazine (Doberman mags) clear back into the 40's where the advertising often had memorials to dogs who had died young (no known cause and suddenly) Looking back from the information a lot of those dogs appeared to have been cardiac cases. But even when I got my first Doberman (1959) you did not hear about DCM--I had a dx on my dog only because a friend (a veterinarian) stopped by my parents on his way home from a dog show to visit with them and see that dog who was living out his retirement with them--that vet heard him cough--got out his stethascope and told them to take them into their vet--it sounded like CHF (often last stage of DCM). They did that and one of the vets in the practice had been a track vet for 10 years and he listened and said the dogs lungs lungs were full of fluid and put him on meds to dry him out--because that's what they used to do with horses who fairly frequently had similar problems after hard racing. There was almost nothing else anyone could do for a cardio dog at that time. It was well into the 1990's before anyone was seriously looking at Doberman cardio.

Both medication and information about the type of cardio Dobes have come a long way in the last 30 years. Not just in Dobes--there is a version of DCM in people and they've been looking at the genetics for a good many years now--the last time I looked at it they were up to about 22 or 23 genes that they thought were in part responsible for the disease in people. This is clearly a polygenetic disease and it makes it very difficult to claim that the Dobeman disease is caused by one specific gene or two.

And I'll also add that basically all the North American and Canadian Dobes were originally from old European stock. And even quite recently the German breeders (in particular) were claiming they didn't have cardio in their lines. It was not true and they finally had to acknowledge they had as big problem as any other groups of Dobermans.

Over the years I've had a lot of Dobes--of those dogs I've really only had two that actually died of DCM. One was my first and his was a classic progression into CHF--which is what killed him the other was a fairly recent dog who was a sudden death case--he was a couple of months shy of ten--he'd been at an Agility trial in the morning and came home all bouncy and then sat down and turned to see why--and I knew that he was in trouble. That dog had been followed by a cardiologist since he was two-- he had yearly Holters and echos done--by the time he was seven we could see that he was having v-tach events and we started doing the Holters and echos twice a year. At 8 he was on benazapril and by 9 he was also on Vetmedin. He still ran agility--and his cardiologist was OK with that because the prospects of him being a sudden death dog were good--and that can occur in their sleep, in their back yard it wasn't going to be the activity that killed him and he loved agility. He wasn't a dog I could turn into a quiet invalid. I lost him on the way to his vet.

But virtually all of the dogs I had from 1995 to the present have developed cardio as they aged--some of them lived to be over ten and my last boy lived to 14--but it wasn't cardio that killed them and I took them to our vet and let them go peacefully when the things that were going wrong made their life a burden for them instead of a joy.

I suspect that SA probably has DCM just as we have but that it isn't recognized just as it wasn't recognized here often--dogs died--suddenly, in their sleep or in their back yard and the cause 40 or 50 years ago simply wasn't recognized.

Now at least we have meds and protocols that can give a Doberman with even a serious condition a pretty good life span--and they can live comfortably.

dobebug

I don't know what happens, but for example here in Mexico and I think Latinamerica a lot of breeders do not talk about DCM, either they do not know about it (which I highly doubt), they are in denial or they truly believe their dogs are free of DCM, which is not possible since our dogs are basically American lines and well, Dobermans. So it is difficult to get information about the health of pure breed Dobermans here. I suppose similar issues happen in other parts of the world. This is changing though, little by little.

 

[DovahMuuliik]

Interesting. So where are you now? You will find more health testing in Western Europe and the USA than elsewhere.

I am currently in Spain and will probably get a Dobie once circumstances permit. As for starting with breeding, that will only happen once I have learned everything I can about structure, health and doing it correctly because I believe in being responsible and have goals as to why I am breeding.

 

[DovahMuuliik]

I think that SA Dobermans were fairly uncommon not many years ago--and as far as not hearing about DCM? I can show you magazine (Doberman mags) clear back into the 40's where the advertising often had memorials to dogs who had died young (no known cause and suddenly) Looking back from the information a lot of those dogs appeared to have been cardiac cases. But even when I got my first Doberman (1959) you did not hear about DCM--I had a dx on my dog only because a friend (a veterinarian) stopped by my parents on his way home from a dog show to visit with them and see that dog who was living out his retirement with them--that vet heard him cough--got out his stethascope and told them to take them into their vet--it sounded like CHF (often last stage of DCM). They did that and one of the vets in the practice had been a track vet for 10 years and he listened and said the dogs lungs lungs were full of fluid and put him on meds to dry him out--because that's what they used to do with horses who fairly frequently had similar problems after hard racing. There was almost nothing else anyone could do for a cardio dog at that time. It was well into the 1990's before anyone was seriously looking at Doberman cardio.

Both medication and information about the type of cardio Dobes have come a long way in the last 30 years. Not just in Dobes--there is a version of DCM in people and they've been looking at the genetics for a good many years now--the last time I looked at it they were up to about 22 or 23 genes that they thought were in part responsible for the disease in people. This is clearly a polygenetic disease and it makes it very difficult to claim that the Dobeman disease is caused by one specific gene or two.

And I'll also add that basically all the North American and Canadian Dobes were originally from old European stock. And even quite recently the German breeders (in particular) were claiming they didn't have cardio in their lines. It was not true and they finally had to acknowledge they had as big problem as any other groups of Dobermans.

Over the years I've had a lot of Dobes--of those dogs I've really only had two that actually died of DCM. One was my first and his was a classic progression into CHF--which is what killed him the other was a fairly recent dog who was a sudden death case--he was a couple of months shy of ten--he'd been at an Agility trial in the morning and came home all bouncy and then sat down and turned to see why--and I knew that he was in trouble. That dog had been followed by a cardiologist since he was two-- he had yearly Holters and echos done--by the time he was seven we could see that he was having v-tach events and we started doing the Holters and echos twice a year. At 8 he was on benazapril and by 9 he was also on Vetmedin. He still ran agility--and his cardiologist was OK with that because the prospects of him being a sudden death dog were good--and that can occur in their sleep, in their back yard it wasn't going to be the activity that killed him and he loved agility. He wasn't a dog I could turn into a quiet invalid. I lost him on the way to his vet.

But virtually all of the dogs I had from 1995 to the present have developed cardio as they aged--some of them lived to be over ten and my last boy lived to 14--but it wasn't cardio that killed them and I took them to our vet and let them go peacefully when the things that were going wrong made their life a burden for them instead of a joy.

I suspect that SA probably has DCM just as we have but that it isn't recognized just as it wasn't recognized here often--dogs died--suddenly, in their sleep or in their back yard and the cause 40 or 50 years ago simply wasn't recognized.

Now at least we have meds and protocols that can give a Doberman with even a serious condition a pretty good life span--and they can live comfortably.

dobebug

I did read a super old article recently on a Dobe breeders page about DCM. Been trying to find as much as I can about it.

That is interesting about the human DCM, I always thought that even though humans and animals aren't the same species, a lot of functions in the body, genes etc are similar, so I always thought that if we can figure out DCM in humans perhaps we can try to apply it to dogs and see if there are similarities. I know from studying horses that there are similarities and that often, human medical research has carried over now to being used on horses to treat the same problems. So maybe we can do the same with DCM in Dobes.

I am sorry for your loss, it's really tough to lose a family member and best friend. That's what I am afraid of, I don't want to lose my dog to DCM.

I know in SA, certain health testing is something that is not focused on, last I heard. Maybe some big breeders do it but I am unsure and I doubt they do yearly exams like American breeders.

 

[DovahMuuliik]

I don't know what happens, but for example here in Mexico and I think Latinamerica a lot of breeders do not talk about DCM, either they do not know about it (which I highly doubt), they are in denial or they truly believe their dogs are free of DCM, which is not possible since our dogs are basically American lines and well, Dobermans. So it is difficult to get information about the health of pure breed Dobermans here. I suppose similar issues happen in other parts of the world. This is changing though, little by little.

Yes I think it's the same in SA but I am sure things will change eventually. As of now I have studied some Dobe lines and if I see a certain dog from a certain kennel in the pedigree, I write the breeder off and move on to look for another one. It's just difficult to find dobes free from certain pedigrees

 

[dobebug]

Good luck in your search. I think you'll find that no matter what breeders tell you that all lines have the potential for cardio to show it's ugly head. There really are no lines that are completely free.

Looking for lines that generally produce long lived dogs is about all you can do. Nothing gets out of life alive--not us, not our dogs and I decided long ago that I'd rather have had Dobermans even when I had to personally deal with the possibility of a shortened life span because of DCM than to not have had Dobermans at all.

It's not a lot of comfort if you've recently lost a dog to DCM but at least it's generally not painful. And I have had two Dobes who were euthanized because of kidney issues for one and degenerative disc disease in the other--those dogs were in pain.

dobebug

 

[DovahMuuliik]

Good luck in your search. I think you'll find that no matter what breeders tell you that all lines have the potential for cardio to show it's ugly head. There really are no lines that are completely free.

Looking for lines that generally produce long lived dogs is about all you can do. Nothing gets out of life alive--not us, not our dogs and I decided long ago that I'd rather have had Dobermans even when I had to personally deal with the possibility of a shortened life span because of DCM than to not have had Dobermans at all.

It's not a lot of comfort if you've recently lost a dog to DCM but at least it's generally not painful. And I have had two Dobes who were euthanized because of kidney issues for one and degenerative disc disease in the other--those dogs were in pain.

dobebug

Thank you so much and you're right. I will try my best regardless though to improve the health of the breed, for me that comes first above all else. So perhaps contributing to geneticists or going into it myself. Thanks Everyone!