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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have my opinions but want to hear from the experts on DT. Where do you land on something allowing a melanistic Doberman (male) to procreate? I saw someone announce an October litter with a melanistic male and b&t female and before I get my hackles up, I thought I’d check with the experts if I should (I kinda think I should).

What do my genetic experts have to say? Is there a formula that predicts if any of the litter will be predisposed to melanism? My only knowledge is that an A lotus, E lotus, or K lotus gene causes this but they aren’t an allowed color, correct? Also, wouldn’t this genetic mutation cause similar health issues as albinism?

I appreciate any education on this.
Thank you!
 

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Leo, Lily, and Simon
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It's not a standard color for sure, but what else is he bringing to the table? Is he solid black, or just have very small, dark markings? Are they specifically hoping for melanistic puppies?
 

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Male Brindle Boxer, Female Blue Doberman
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I can only say that after having a few Blues and a Fawn that any gene color dilution can lead to other issues. The restive genes when stacked in both the dame and sire are where the problems crop up. Neither of my first Blue or Fawn had any type of issue, physical, mental or behavioral. However, my current Blue girl has sever hair/skin issues and they started just before she was one. That being said she will be two in late October. She hasn’t shown any other issues and hopefully she will not. I have not seen her pedigree as she is CKC and there are some questionable purity of said dogs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
It's not a standard color for sure, but what else is he bringing to the table? Is he solid black, or just have very small, dark markings? Are they specifically hoping for melanistic puppies?
I don’t know - they are on Instagram - I will send you the account. He looks solid black and (in my novice opinion) haven’t seen anything to recommend him.
 

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Big Lil pup
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Hi MM.
Your original and gut reaction is the correct one. And, while it wouldn't necessarily raise my hackles.... It would indicate to me that this particular "breeders" priorities are definitely all f*&$%#d up.

Still, I certainly wouldn't assume that the health and temperament issues associated with Albinism in Dobermans would evidence themselves in a monochromatic dark coated dog. Especially those concerning blindness, skin sensitivity to the sun, and certain epidermal cancers. Plus, some temperament issues in Albino Dobermans have been tentatively suggested to be related to their inability to see. Sight, of course, being extremely important to dogs.

And BTW... It's loCus not loTus. The plural of which is loci.

lo·cus| ˈlōkəs |

1 technical a particular position, point, or place: it is impossible to specify the exact locus in the brain of these neural events. • the effective or perceived location of something abstract: the real locus of power is the informal council. • Genetics: the position of a gene or mutation on a chromosome.

John L
Portland OR
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hi MM.
Your original and gut reaction is the correct one. And, while it wouldn't necessarily raise my hackles.... It would indicate to me that this particular "breeders" priorities are definitely all f*&$%#d up.

Still, I certainly wouldn't assume that the health and temperament issues associated with Albinism in Dobermans would evidence themselves in a monochromatic dark coated dog. Especially those concerning blindness, skin sensitivity to the sun, and certain epidermal cancers. Plus, some temperament issues in Albino Dobermans have been tentatively suggested to be related to their inability to see. Sight, of course, being extremely important to dogs.

And BTW... It's loCus not loTus. The plural of which is loci.

lo·cus| ˈlōkəs |

1 technical a particular position, point, or place: it is impossible to specify the exact locus in the brain of these neural events. • the effective or perceived location of something abstract: the real locus of power is the informal council. • Genetics: the position of a gene or mutation on a chromosome.

John L
Portland OR
I swear I typed locus….
I had to check because I thought you were losing it. But, apparently I am losing it. It must be autocorrect, via the iPad because, although I am one glass of wine in, I know enough to know the difference between locus and lotus. Adding insult to injury, I typed it, not once but THREE times! Going to hang my head in shame. 🥴
 

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Big Lil pup
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I swear I typed locus….
I had to check because I thought you were losing it. But, apparently I am losing it. It must be autocorrect, via the iPad because, although I am one glass of wine in, I know enough to know the difference between locus and lotus. Adding insult to injury, I typed it, not once but THREE times! Going to hang my head in shame. 🥴
LOL MM...

I don't even bother to correct my typos anymore. When I try, my damn computer screws them up worse by "auto-correcting" them. If I REALLY make an undecipherable one, I wait and then go back and edit it out later. The problem is that I, like most others my age, learned to type in a class using full sized typewriters. The mini-keyboards on my laptops force me to hunt and peck in a fashion which is prone to some pretty funny (dumb?) mistakes.

SO... Go have a few more glasses of wine. And, BTW, with all your other talents, being a less than perfect typist gets a pass from me! LOL

JL
 

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Leo, Lily, and Simon
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I don’t know - they are on Instagram - I will send you the account. He looks solid black and (in my novice opinion) haven’t seen anything to recommend him.
Yeah, he's got barely discernable markings.

Oh and the dog in question is not yet a year…… :oops:
Did you notice that the bitch is only 14 months old? :(
 

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Big Lil pup
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Typing errors are SO entertaining for the rest of us; don't stop now! 😁
Mel, I felt had to design my own emoji/icon to respond to your comment:
page1image37604752

Pretty cool eh?

HEY... Aren't you supposed to be a Super Mod? Why don't you pull a few Super Mod strings and get this work of art included with the rest of the "Like" icons. I love options. Especially negative ones!

(He says wearing his best STJ! hat)
 

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I would run screaming the opposite way if anything is melanistic, Z-factored, under 2 years old MINIMUM, or hasn't been titled and health tested and they are breeding it. I also don't care for an outdoor 24/7 kennel set up, but I don't think that alone makes a BYB if everything else is followed to the letter. Dobermans don't do well living outdoors, but I have seen some people with outdoor kennels for hunting dogs that were very clean and set up very well. I am not familiar enough with those breeds, though to know if it is detrimental for them to be in the kennel when not being worked.
 

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I have my opinions but want to hear from the experts on DT. Where do you land on something allowing a melanistic Doberman (male) to procreate? I saw someone announce an October litter with a melanistic male and b&t female and before I get my hackles up, I thought I’d check with the experts if I should (I kinda think I should).

What do my genetic experts have to say? Is there a formula that predicts if any of the litter will be predisposed to melanism? My only knowledge is that an A lotus, E lotus, or K lotus gene causes this but they aren’t an allowed color, correct? Also, wouldn’t this genetic mutation cause similar health issues as albinism?

I appreciate any education on this.
Thank you!
I don't know about anyone else M & M but my hackle went up immediately. I don't know about predicting the possibility of more melanistic (read black) puppies with that breeding--probably does but no one who has the best interests of the breed (Dobermans) should even be doing anything except neutering the melanistic dog and removing the parents of that dog from their breeding program (if indeed they have a breeding program.

It's my kind of foggy recollection from having read an explanation from many years ago that there are a couple of things that go into creating "black" dogs when it is supposed to be a black and tan/rust breed like a Dobe.

It isn't so much that they are not an allowed color but they do not have correct markings which are described in the standard. What happens is that the black coat color slowly bleeds into the markings (and they are caused by a different gene set than the coat color.)

Doesn't make a lot of difference to me what causes it. IT IS INCORRECT!.

Albinism isn't just a color problem--the genetics affect the entire dog and some problems are built it--in a fashion that isn't the case with a melanistic black and tan dog.

And the big problem is the same as when any breed starts trying to breed for color, color and markings, or any other single trait--those breeders lose sight of the overall appearance. And health, temperament, longevity get lost in the shuffle.

Stupid--just as deliberately breeding for albino dogs was and still is stupid.

UGH!

dobebug
 

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I would run screaming the opposite way if anything is melanistic, Z-factored, under 2 years old MINIMUM, or hasn't been titled and health tested and they are breeding it. I also don't care for an outdoor 24/7 kennel set up, but I don't think that alone makes a BYB if everything else is followed to the letter. Dobermans don't do well living outdoors, but I have seen some people with outdoor kennels for hunting dogs that were very clean and set up very well. I am not familiar enough with those breeds, though to know if it is detrimental for them to be in the kennel when not being worked.
Sorry, I cannot help, but comment. Some of the most iconic dogs in the history of the breed have been from non-champion dams and a few from non-champion sires. While this may be a good general rule, a lot depends on the breeder.

As for outdoor kennels, many breeds do not mind being in a kennel/dog run. DOBERMANS ARE NOT ONE OF THEM UNLESS THAT IS ALL THEY HAVE EVER KNOWN. Dobermans are the original personal protection dog. THEY LIVE TO BE WITH THEIR PEOPLE. If they have ever been in the house and seen the Good Life, putting them in a run is like putting them in jail.
 

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I have my perspectives yet need to hear from the specialists on DT. Where do you arrive on something permitting a melanistic Doberman (male) to reproduce? I saw somebody declare an October litter with a melanistic male and b&t female and before I get my temper up, I thought I'd check with the specialists in the event that I ought to (I somewhat figure I ought to).
 

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Sorry, I cannot help, but comment. Some of the most iconic dogs in the history of the breed have been from non-champion dams and a few from non-champion sires. While this may be a good general rule, a lot depends on the breeder.

As for outdoor kennels, many breeds do not mind being in a kennel/dog run. DOBERMANS ARE NOT ONE OF THEM UNLESS THAT IS ALL THEY HAVE EVER KNOWN. Dobermans are the original personal protection dog. THEY LIVE TO BE WITH THEIR PEOPLE. If they have ever been in the house and seen the Good Life, putting them in a run is like putting them in jail.
Yeah, I mostly just mean the kennels that are breeding dogs 10 plus times a year and none have any titles. I don't think there is anything wrong with an experienced Doberman breeder seeing a Doberman that will benefit their lines and overall genetic diversity to the Doberman gene pool. I was just adding that on to the topic of melanistic and Z-factor breeders. Unfortunately the two practices seem to go hand in hand. People breeding just for colors with every dog being unproven stock that isn't put together well. I have sadly seem some doozies listed (their studs and bitches) from people producing albinos and solid black (melanistic) on purpose.

Nice to know some of the hunting dogs don't suffer being in nice kennels. I know Dobermans are not made for that.
 
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