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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Its frustrating guys,

As some of you can recall from quite awhile ago I was in debate about whether to breed LoKi or not. He has a strong lineage, Perfect Temperment lineage and everything else in everyway.

He does not have show confirmation (yet maybe)
or medical testing etc


I know I want to eventually get him chopped so he can enjoy life playing with other dogs at the dog park but I dont want to give up his qualities.


do you think there is a few minimal tests we could have done to show Loki's qualities and that he is clean to see about studding him for one litter to a reputable breeder? (I wouldn't touch a BYB with a twenty foot pole)

That way I would be happy because I didnt let LoKi's Qualities end there and I could also get a pup from LoKi with Close Traits.


Thoughts?
 

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What is Perfect Temperment lineage?

I don't think there should be any skimping on tests or titles before breeding.

I don't think a reputable breeder would touch you with a twenty foot pole without the proper testing and titling.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Stability, intelligence
BYBs generate allot of the dogs with undesirable qualities such as aggression and other negative traits.

Well if there is no skimping on the tests, then what tests are required so we can see about attaining them.
 

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He would need his elbows and hips exrayed. A holter test. vWd test. Thyroid checked for starters.

If you really want to know about his temperment, take him through a temperment test. And you will need to show him in conformation so that he can be judged by someone experienced.
 

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I don't know anything about breeding or showing...but why dont you get some titles and conformation awards or whatever you call them before you look into breeding...
a reputable breeder and people that are looking for a dog from a reputable breeder usually only go for with a sire and dam with quite a bit of background when it comes to showing and working titles.
and just cause we all don't know you or your history...what experience do you have with the breed and competition?
 

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You know, I'll be honest, I seriously almost cancelled Chi's spay appointment -"just one litter" is what I told myself. But then the a member here who has a truly remarkable dog, that is titled told me that she refuses to breed him and one of the reasons was that you can never really guarantee the quality of homes the pups are going to. That above all else is what pushed me over the edge to keep her appointment. Good thing too, 'cause now as she matures, her temperment is lacking.
I know that you love Loki and have no doubt that he is also a remarkable dog and completely understand why you would want to pass his traits on for another pet for you. But, what about the other 5 pups in that litter? Are you prepared to screen potential owners and keep your door open for the next 10 or so years in the event that the new owners can't keep his offspring for whatever reason?
Although I'm not certain, I'm with the school who says a reputable breeder isn't going to consider Loki a candidate for their bitch withouth health testing and titles.
Who was Loki's breeder? Have they planned any repeat breedings of the pair that produced Loki?
 

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TracyJo said:
You know, I'll be honest, I seriously almost cancelled Chi's spay appointment -"just one litter" is what I told myself. But then the a member here who has a truly remarkable dog, that is titled told me that she refuses to breed him and one of the reasons was that you can never really guarantee the quality of homes the pups are going to. That above all else is what pushed me over the edge to keep her appointment. Good thing too, 'cause now as she matures, her temperment is lacking.
I know that you love Loki and have no doubt that he is also a remarkable dog and completely understand why you would want to pass his traits on for another pet for you. But, what about the other 5 pups in that litter? Are you prepared to screen potential owners and keep your door open for the next 10 or so years in the event that the new owners can't keep his offspring for whatever reason?
Although I'm not certain, I'm with the school who says a reputable breeder isn't going to consider Loki a candidate for their bitch withouth health testing and titles.
Who was Loki's breeder? Have they planned any repeat breedings of the pair that produced Loki?
Tracy, you are a fast learner, and I for one applaud you!
 

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FiReBReTHa said:
Its frustrating guys,

As some of you can recall from quite awhile ago I was in debate about whether to breed LoKi or not. He has a strong lineage, Perfect Temperment lineage and everything else in everyway.

He does not have show confirmation (yet maybe)
or medical testing etc


I know I want to eventually get him chopped so he can enjoy life playing with other dogs at the dog park but I dont want to give up his qualities.


do you think there is a few minimal tests we could have done to show Loki's qualities and that he is clean to see about studding him for one litter to a reputable breeder? (I wouldn't touch a BYB with a twenty foot pole)

That way I would be happy because I didnt let LoKi's Qualities end there and I could also get a pup from LoKi with Close Traits.


Thoughts?
I understand that people feel this weird need to want to breed their pets. What you need to understand is that the breed will not disappear if you neuter him without breeding him. There are 100's of Dobermans without homes in this country at any point in time - is he so wonderful that he needs to contribute his DNA to the mix?

If you think he is so wonderful and want another one, go back to your breeder and ask for another one. Or better yet, find a reputable breeder after you neuter your boy.

As far as I know, you have yet to do anything with your boy. Have you gone to training with him? Have you competed for a title in anything?? Obedience, agility, rally, schutzhund, flyball?? Does he at least have a CGC and/or WAC? Why is breeding your first interest? Go do something with him. Have fun and learn with him. Get him neutered and learn about this breed. Health tests are not just for breeding dogs.

I do thyroid testing, cardio ultrasounds & EKG's, and eye cerf testing on my spayed bitch. I will do that plus OFAing her hips when my younger bitch turns two. I also always do a vwd Vetgen dna test to know my dogs vwd status..... I also recommend a liver function test and will most likely do that for my younger bitch who I hope to breed AFTER she finishes her Championship, passes all her health tests, and hopefully passes her WAE. I also plan on putting an obedience title or two or three on her at some point. If things don't work out, then oh-well, she will be spayed too.

You can look at my website to see the quality of the one I spayed - look at her pedigree too while you are at it. They don't all need to reproduce and shouldn't. The one I am showing now is there too - look at her pedigree. She was pick of a very nice show litter. If she is bred, she will be the only one from her litter to reproduce. None of the other 4 puppies in her litter will. Only the very best will carry on, and that is the way it should be.
 

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The thing is that although LoKi undoubtably has sterling qualities that you would want to replicate in your next Doberman so do hundreds of other Dobermans.

If you are using a dog at stud and/or breeding a bitch you should be doing so in order to improve the general quality of the breed. The breeders who ARE doing this wouldn't consider using an untitled, untested dog for stud on a quality bitch. That leaves you with the prospects of breeding him to whoever will be willing to use him--that would be the guy who owns the bitch down the street who either came from one of the major puppy mills or who is the by product of generations of BYB. THIS is NOT improving the breed.

I have males--that's all I've kept for years--I show them, I put performance titles on them when they are out of the conformation ring, they are temperament tested at least on a basic level by taking them through the Working Aptitude Evaluation (commonly known as the WAE) and I DON'T BREED them.

These are dogs with AKC championships, who have at very least minimal performance titles and who have passed the WAE. They are all OFA'd for hips and elbows, VetGen tested for vWD, CERF'd, Thyroid tested (full panels) the only thing I don't do with them that I would do IF I were intending to allow them to be used at stud is early cardiac testing (echo's and holters). You are looking at at least a thousand dollars worth of testing and that's only if you can find clinics that offer bargains on some of these things. And most of these things are not one time tests. The ones that are would be one time test are the OFA certification of hips and elbows and the genetic test for vWD.

If you really think that LoKi has something to offer in terms of service as a sire then go to a repro center/or clinic where they can collect his sperm and store it. The cost for this is not insignifigant and there is a yearly charge for the storage and then you can have him neutered now, rather than later and make further decisions about his worth as a potential sire when you know more about how the good breeders choose the dogs they use on their quality bitches.

I'm not trying to mean about this but there are still far too many Dobermans being bred--even though things have improved since the population explosian in the 70's when Dobes went to #2 in registrations with the AKC there are a lot of Dobe (and all dogs for that matter) looking for homes and the rescues are full all the time.
 

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I can't say it any better than dobebug, velmadobe, Tracy, etc - but to be short -

is the only thing making him breedable in your eyes, is his marvelous ability to be your pet? Since he doesnt' have any health testing, he doesn't have any actual temperament testing, he has no independent evaluation of his structure, and he has no proof of his working abilities...

so love your pet. Enjoy him. BUt every one of us has lovely pets - we don't need to breed pets to make more of them. Any breeder that would use your boy at this point, isn't one I would think of as reputable.
 

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I agree with the others. Btw, Tracy I enjoyed reading yours about Chi.

Loki might be a wonderful pet, there are lots of wonderful pets in rescue. Dobermans are all around great dogs for the most part and many people think aw, I want another just like my Dobe. That accounts for many rescues and many great pet Dobe that just don't have homes. Please don't become part of that.

But just b/c Loki is a wonderful pet that doesn't mean he needs to be bred. I know of a few on here that really do have all Ch. pedigree altered pets sitting on their couches that they health test and title but are not going to breed those dogs.

Just b/c a Dobe has a pedigree doesn't mean they need to be bred. I am glad you want to stay away from back yard breeders, that is a great decision on your part. In order to stay away from byb breeders you would have to title, temperament test, and health test Loki. That way you could assess yourself if he should be bred anyway with the help of others and the tests would tell you much about him. Breeding should be about more than I like my pet and want another one.

It is not cheap and is not easy, it takes time and money to title and test. One CD title obtained in one weekend cost around $100 on my male, each time we went in the ring was $22 or so, if he hadn't passed it would have cost much more as each time you pay to go in the ring for the title. Then there is gas to get there, training club dues to train at a club to proof him for the ring, hotels, eating out, etc. The money really add up fast. Health testing is also very costly, but important. Some of the tests need to be done multiple times, not just once, which also adds to the cost.

As a side note training and going to trials is very fun and addicting. It is worth every penny and Dobes seems to really enjoy working with their people and having a job to do, even if you are not interested in breeding, you should give it a try with Loki. I think you guys would enjoy agility, rally, obedience, or other fun dog sports.

I thought Tracy Jo's post was good b/c what about those extra puppies you are going to produce. When you breed you are not just producing a dog for yourself, oftentimes Dobes have large litters. And I agree with everyone else, enjoy your boy and get him fixed. Let him run at the dog park with other dogs in peace if that is what you want. Enjoy him for the perfect pet that he is for you, and let that be enough.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
dobebug said:
If you really think that LoKi has something to offer in terms of service as a sire then go to a repro center/or clinic where they can collect his sperm and store it. The cost for this is not insignifigant and there is a yearly charge for the storage and then you can have him neutered now, rather than later and make further decisions about his worth as a potential sire when you know more about how the good breeders choose the dogs they use on their quality bitches.

I'm not trying to mean about this but there are still far too many Dobermans being bred--even though things have improved since the population explosian in the 70's when Dobes went to #2 in registrations with the AKC there are a lot of Dobe (and all dogs for that matter) looking for homes and the rescues are full all the time.

You all have the same, ...."Viscousness" that I would also take to someone posting this question. (its a harsh word so change that to something softer)

But I believe in what everyone is saying and am highly considering following thru to pursue this.

This is more than just, "I want a similar pet"

This is, "If others were able to share in this excellent example of the breed"


My question should have been a bit clearer that i wanted to know if there was a more minimalistic approach rather than going all out and ' traveling all over the country ' showing LoKi.

I will post more later but I just wanted everyone to know and not too worry that I would consider a BYB but my goal is continuation, LoKi's pedigree has winners all down the line, and LoKi has the intelligence and good instinct-strengths that would be fantastic to pass on if possible.
 

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You have a picture of Loki's father in your gallery...why dont you contact them and maybe they can aid you into the show world...like I said before...get some titles and so on in both obedience and conformation...Im sure the owners of Loki's father can assist you in finding some great shows near you...and will be excited about you wanting to get into the events and make Loki the best doberman he can be in obedience and conformation. If you really want the best for Loki and the breed as a whole I would go about doing this in a very very serious manner and work to be the most responsible, dedicated, devoted, helpful, informative. I personally feel you will be happier if you go about this in the right way :) You want to be truly truly proud of the dogs your producing...the dog shows and trials is the place to start :)
Who is Loki's breeder? sire? and dam?


my goal is continuation, LoKi's pedigree has winners all down the line, and LoKi has the intelligence and good instinct-strengths that would be fantastic to pass on if possible.
The breeder you got Loki from is probably only going to want to continue breeding CH, titled, and so on if they want to have the best pedigree continued.

We got duchess as a pet with no intentions to show her...therefore she will not be bred. because of this On her papers with AKC her breeder made sure that the AKC is aware that any puppies produced from Duchess would NOT be able to register witht he AKC. IF you breeder that you got Loki from did the same thing, then if Loki was to have a litter they wouldnt be able to be registered...therefore, that would not continue Loki's pedigree. Duchess is a great dog...she is spayed...but now she is going to be competing in obedience but I still dont consider that to be enough to change my mind about getting her spayed.
The only way I would even consider breeding Duchess if she wasnt spayed lol is if she was a CH and titled etc...Contact her breeder and go through their kennel meanwhile pay more money for her and doing every single health test, and earned titles that they do. I feel the breeder you got Loki from should be a part of what Loki is producing because in my eyes...what Loki does makes a difference on Loki's breeder and their pedigree..whether it is good or bad. that is why if you want to keep Loki's pedigree going...do it in the best way you possibly could...this means being a CH. and titled etc....makes a huge difference...
 

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FiReBReTHa said:
This is, "If others were able to share in this excellent example of the breed"


My question should have been a bit clearer that i wanted to know if there was a more minimalistic approach rather than going all out and ' traveling all over the country ' showing LoKi.

I will post more later but I just wanted everyone to know and not too worry that I would consider a BYB but my goal is continuation, LoKi's pedigree has winners all down the line, and LoKi has the intelligence and good instinct-strengths that would be fantastic to pass on if possible.
The way you PROVE your dog is an excellent example of the breed is to get it out there and compete against other dogs, get the necessary health testing done (very expensive in this breed).

Right now all we have is the very biased (understandably) opinion of the owner, who might or might not have the skills and experience to make that kind of determination.

There are untold numbers of pet quality dogs that were produced by dogs with great pedigrees. You can't rely on pedigree alone as any guarantee of quality of the individual dog.

This is the way it goes..reputable breeders with quality bitches try to breed "up"-they're not going to pay a stud fee to breed to a dog of lesser quality than what they already have. As others have said-there are many, many top quality champion males with full health testing that never produce a litter. When that's the case, why SHOULD any bitch owner be willing to settle for less? You're NOT going to attract reputable breeders with your concept of "I just want to do the minimum I can get away with". There are too many people with quality males who are willing to go the whole distance to choose from.

No one is trying to be mean here. I'm sure Loki is a great pet. If you think he has something to offer the breed above and beyond that, then get him out there and PROVE it-and there's no quick and dirty way to do that.
 

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I'm going to give you something else to think about too. What you love in LoKi is in part a direct result of how you have raised him. There is no sort of guarantee that his offspring would be anything like him--in looks, personality or temperament.

I learned this very much the hard way with the first several Dobermans that followed after my first Doberman. I was very fortunate in that dog--I bought him to show but knew so little about how to find and identify either a prospective show dog or a breeder of a prospective show dog that I should have gotten the sort of dud (well loved pet but NOT a show dog) that most people get the first time around. We learned to show together--I finished him in the States and Canada and I was at the time a complete novice and his breeder showed him for a good many years as a special and he actually won lot of groups and several BIS and BISS in the States and Canada.

And every dog that I had for probably 10 years afterwards came up short because they weren't that dog. I had puppies that were closely related and who I raised in the same fashion that I raised the first dog but just as all the kids in a family don't turn out the same--dogs, not even closely related dogs raised by the same people don't turn out exactly the same.

I learned that since I have no interest in being a breeder myself that finding a dog that I like, from a breeder that I like works very well. Actually much better than trying to find clones of that first dog.

It is very difficult for subsequent dogs to live up to the legacy of the first or a very special dog that you may have had. It is also often very disappointing for people who love your dog and want one just like him to discover that the reason your dogs acts like he does has as much to do with his upbringing and training as it does with his breeding.

Having LoKi as a sire of puppies in no way will guarantee that they will be the same sort of Doberman that he is.
 

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"My question should have been a bit clearer that i wanted to know if there was a more minimalistic approach rather than going all out and ' traveling all over the country ' showing LoKi. "

It is comments like this that concern me..."minimalistic" doesn't sound like you are concerned with genetics, health concerns etc. just breeding him to breed him because he's such a nice dog.
 

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"But I believe in what everyone is saying and am highly considering following thru to pursue this."

We gave our opinions, that you asked for.... and it doesn't matter you will pursue it anyway...why ask? You had your mind made up.
 

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FiReBReTHa said:
My question should have been a bit clearer that i wanted to know if there was a more minimalistic approach rather than going all out and ' traveling all over the country ' showing LoKi.

I will post more later but I just wanted everyone to know and not too worry that I would consider a BYB but my goal is continuation, LoKi's pedigree has winners all down the line, and LoKi has the intelligence and good instinct-strengths that would be fantastic to pass on if possible.

Here is a link to the AKC Events page: http://www.akc.org/clubs/search/index.cfm?action=conf&display=on enter your state and it will give you the contact information for local all breed dog clubs - they in turn will be able to give you a schedule of upcoming shows and probably conformation classes.

Showing is not just walking around the ring with your dog. I've shown one dog once. I was just a teen and actually took my pet store bought Siberian Husky through classes at a local club and to one show. God love that Judge for being so kind to me! But, there are a lot of intricacies to being in the ring, keeping the dog always between you and the judge, stacking him properly and so on... It is also a lot of fun and a great way to meet people. If you live in a pretty populated area, it will be easier to get to more shows than if you lived in a pretty desolate state like North Dakota (1 show a year within easy driving distance and even that was 8 hours away!)

I know a few dogs who were "finished" pretty quickly but they were exceptional dogs - I wonder what the average time span is for finishing....
 

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TracyJo said:
I know a few dogs who were "finished" pretty quickly but they were exceptional dogs - I wonder what the average time span is for finishing....
There are a lot of variables involved..the largest one being how old the dog is...most people try to show their dogs much too young, long before they're physically or mentally ready to be competitive.

Another factor is what judging panels come up for the areas you plan to show in.

Example: my young bitchette has done really well so far. She was shown three weekends in the puppy classes, starting at 8 months of age-so far has 3 reserves to majors, and 1 three point major. While this doesn't count towards a championship, she's been shown at 4 doberman specialty shows and went Best Puppy three times. So her "ratio" of number of times shown vs. awards received is quite good. Even as an immature youngster, she always was neck deep in the competition.

My handler doesn't live near me. I'm willing to travel for majors, not willing to do a road trip for 1 or 2 point shows. He's scheduled to come to this area twice next month-the judges are people I choose not to show to..So it might be awhile before she's shown again...which is okay with me. She'll only get better as she matures anyway. In the end, she won't finish FAST-as in just a few weeks from start to finish..but the odds are she'll finish in a minimum number of shows.

A well trained, mature quality animal SHOULD finish without having to be heavily campaigned.
 

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Murreydobe said:
My handler doesn't live near me.
BTW, just wanted to add a bit more, since the OP made the comment he didn't want to travel all over the country to show his dog.

I'm using an out of state handler because he co bred her litter..so there's a "reason" for the decision to use him above and beyond talent and professionalism. There actually is at least one handler in my area with just as much talent and experience..so the reality is I really wouldn't have to travel extensively to show/finish my bitch if I didn't want to. My first champion earned 11 of the 15 points needed for a championship at shows no more than 100 miles from home.
 
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