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Anyone with Nervous/Fear Aggressive Dogs?

2120 Views 19 Replies 6 Participants Last post by  joeydog
I was just wondering if anyone had some ideas for helping a nervous/fear aggressive dog with high drive? My aussie is a sweet girl but she has always been less than confident and this has led to some fear aggression towards young children. If they are out playing in the street and she is out there she will try to chase them down (even on leash) and I can't get her to calm down at all (though food helps) so basically she acts overconfident (bluffing) but she will run up and do herding behaviors if given a chance (jump at the face, nipping, growling). If she is inside someplace with them she acts nervous/anxious and if they try to pet her she snaps at their hands (even the calmer ones sometimes) and lord help me if they are hyper and run around because that really sets her off. Just to clarify I have avoided such situation since I discovered all this.
So I put her in sports to build her confidence (agility, flyball, etc.) which has really helped in relation to new people and dogs but young children are still a big problem. It was recently pointed out by a good friend of mine that I pretty much let her run my house (and she was right) so she now has a more structured routine and is not allowed on furniture, must lay down on her pillow in the family room while we eat (solves the food guarding and counter surfing) and is just in general relearning how to be respectful of me. I am hoping some of this will help but does anyone else have some ideas? I am really at a loss with this one and am going to have a young dog in a year and a half so I want her issues settled as much as possible by then. I don't expect her to like children but I want her to avoid them vs go after them at least.
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Hey Amanda, the steps you've taken so far sound excellent, but IMO fear aggression is something which someone with lots of experience in the field should help with, if it were me I would definitely get a professional in (hopefully someone on here can point you in the direction of a good trainer in your area). When it comes to any aggression issues, things can turn very ugly, very quickly.

Good luck :)
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I recommend picking up a copy of Leslie McDevitt's book, "Control Unleashed." Then, if you can find a trainer who uses the CU methods in a reactive dog class, get signed up for that.
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Have you corrected her for "going after children"? Often aussies will herd running kids, that is not considered aggressive. My Gus didn't like kids much, he was well trained but I never left him alone with visiting nieces and nephews, he loved his own kids though. I think of training much more than on the agility course, to me training is a something that we do so the dog is liveable. Wait, down, sit, off, go, back all commands used in the house and they must be obeyed whenever they are spoken, don't say it if you can't enforce it. I suggest you try herding with her, she is an aussie and nothing teaches control better than herding. I also suggest to continue doing what you said which is training her in the home. I personally would desenitize her to kids screaming and running by working her obedience outside of a school area where the kids are at recess. She can see and hear them but you have her on the leash. exposing her from a safe distance can really help her learn. Also do work with her in front of a busy store, at petsmart etc. so she learns to work even with people and kids all over the place. On a weekend go to a large park and train her while the kids are playing soccer (I think it is soccer season now ;)) They run and yell, you can work her on leash by this activity, it will really help. She may never be a dog who likes children as with my Gus but they need to know they can't ever go after them. Also before you go the field with kids have her fetch for a good 15 to 20 minutes hard so she is calmer when you begin your "real" work desensitizing and teaching her to ignore them. It should help.

I correct for going after kids, that is one of the things that I have zero tolerance for. I'm not willing to slowly work through it with treats and games, not when kids are involved. She is an aussie and needs to know you will not allow her to charge children. Use your waits and downs for this situation. She should down on the run which is why a herding class may be right up your alley. It teaches control when faced with the biggest distraction ever. Good luck. Be firm, be patient and above all be consistant.
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Have you corrected her for "going after children"? Often aussies will herd running kids, that is not considered aggressive. My Gus didn't like kids much, he was well trained but I never left him alone with visiting nieces and nephews, he loved his own kids though. I think of training much more than on the agility course, to me training is a something that we do so the dog is liveable. Wait, down, sit, off, go, back all commands used in the house and they must be obeyed whenever they are spoken, don't say it if you can't enforce it. I suggest you try herding with her, she is an aussie and nothing teaches control better than herding. I also suggest to continue doing what you said which is training her in the home. I personally would desenitize her to kids screaming and running by working her obedience outside of a school area where the kids are at recess. She can see and hear them but you have her on the leash. exposing her from a safe distance can really help her learn. Also do work with her in front of a busy store, at petsmart etc. so she learns to work even with people and kids all over the place. On a weekend go to a large park and train her while the kids are playing soccer (I think it is soccer season now ;)) They run and yell, you can work her on leash by this activity, it will really help.

I correct for going after kids, that is one of the things that I have zero tolerance for. I'm not willing to slowly work through it with treats and games, not when kids are involved. She is an aussie and needs to know you will not allow her to charge children. Use your waits and downs for this situation. She should down on the run which is why a herding class may be right up your alley. It teaches control when faced with the biggest distraction ever. Good luck. Be firm, be patient and above all be consistant.

It is definately herding behavior with the charging, nipping, etc but she even nipped at a girls hands once who was being perfectly quiet and she had sought attention from. She wasn't waving her hand around or anything either. I have corrected her but to no avail it seems. She goes absolutley crazy when she sees them running around. I would love to do herding classes with her but there is no one less than an hour away and I don't have the money for gas to do that on a regular basis.
I think I am going to look into a trainer and the book you recommended Meadowcat. I know she needs focus techniques and desensitization but I just don't know where to start with it so I think a trainer might be my best bet.
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You can do herding classes twice a month. They aren't like other classes where you have to do them a lot. I'd try one weekend and see what you think. Sometimes corrections aren't real corrections but are nags instead, my guess is it wasn't the kind of correction I'd give. That's okay some people are softer of nature. I think you would do well with control unleashed but until this is all worked out keep her away from kids. Work her sit stays near schools and soccer fields as I suggested, if she is sitting she can't go crazy. The crazy is the herding stuff, kids are running and screaming and she sees them as needing to be rounded up. Aussies and border collies can be very high strung that way. I think it would have been easier to deal with this when she was younger but now I really, really think going at least once to a weekend herding clinic will give you valuable information and you will see how crazed those dogs are waiting to get out on the sheep. It may give insight into her behavior and ways to calm her that you haven't thought of.

It is definately herding behavior with the charging, nipping, etc but she even nipped at a girls hands once who was being perfectly quiet and she had sought attention from. She wasn't waving her hand around or anything either. I have corrected her but to no avail it seems. She goes absolutley crazy when she sees them running around. I would love to do herding classes with her but there is no one less than an hour away and I don't have the money for gas to do that on a regular basis.
I think I am going to look into a trainer and the book you recommended Meadowcat. I know she needs focus techniques and desensitization but I just don't know where to start with it so I think a trainer might be my best bet.
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My corrections used to be more like nags admittedly but I got over that and I correct her by putting her on her side (alfa rolling I guess), it's the only harsher correction I know, and even that doesn't do me much good. I am also guilty of thinking she would grow out of it given more confidence. How would I go about finding a good herding clinic?
How would I go about finding a good herding clinic?
I just googled Herding clinics and found this. I have never owned herding dogs so don't have any idea if this is reputable. I noticed on the list there was a contact for Oklahoma which I believe I saw as your location.

My OB trainer breeds aussies and just took several of the dogs she bred to a herding instinct test last weekend. If you come up dry, PM me and I will ask her for any leads.

Good luck!

p.s. I just read down farther in the list and this link include Breed organization contacts for various herding breeds, including Aussies. I would think you should definitely be able to get some leads from folks on this list.
herding Organizations: North America: all breed
Thanks HarvestMoon I emailed the club so hopefully they can help me out!
My corrections used to be more like nags admittedly but I got over that and I correct her by putting her on her side (alfa rolling I guess), it's the only harsher correction I know, and even that doesn't do me much good. I am also guilty of thinking she would grow out of it given more confidence. How would I go about finding a good herding clinic?
"Alpha Rolling" is going to be very counter-productive and may very well make your problem worse. If this behavior is stemming from anxiety or fear you are only making her more anxious by doing that, which is going to escalate her reaction. Additionally, that type of dog training is very outdated and debunked.

I would personally work on the issue with CU techniques. If you can find a CU trainer, I would consult with that person before starting any herding classes. They may help, or they may escalate her reactivity. I think you need a professional who can evaluate your dog before you put her in situations of high arousal. If you need a CU trainer recommendation let me know where you are located and I'll see if I can find anyone near you.
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"Alpha Rolling" is going to be very counter-productive and may very well make your problem worse. If this behavior is stemming from anxiety or fear you are only making her more anxious by doing that, which is going to escalate her reaction. Additionally, that type of dog training is very outdated and debunked.

I would personally work on the issue with CU techniques. If you can find a CU trainer, I would consult with that person before starting any herding classes. They may help, or they may escalate her reactivity. I think you need a professional who can evaluate your dog before you put her in situations of high arousal. If you need a CU trainer recommendation let me know where you are located and I'll see if I can find anyone near you.
I know what you mean and the only reason I even tried it is because no other corrections even phased her. I am not a fan of it but I was just really at a loss for what to do. I do like the look of the CU training and would really appreciate if you would recommend someone! I am near Oklahoma City, on the west side. Do you have any exercises I could practice at home with her in the meantime?

On the plus side I took her out to the park yesterday and took her on a good structured walk (getting her to heal with treats and praise and then holding it for a while) and then headed over to the other side of the park where we met up with a family and one of the girls was allowed to give her some treats as long as she didn't try to pet her (she does fine in this sort of situation even if she is a bit nervous). Then we walked around the outside of the kids play area, where she could see the kids playing and running but wasn't too close, and we practiced some obedience and just being calm in that situation. Wouldn't you know she acted like it was no big deal! Seems like she is fine (unless she is in my yard) until they come up to her. Anyway I was excited!
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I know what you mean and the only reason I even tried it is because no other corrections even phased her. I am not a fan of it but I was just really at a loss for what to do. I do like the look of the CU training and would really appreciate if you would recommend someone! I am near Oklahoma City, on the west side. Do you have any exercises I could practice at home with her in the meantime?

On the plus side I took her out to the park yesterday and took her on a good structured walk (getting her to heal with treats and praise and then holding it for a while) and then headed over to the other side of the park where we met up with a family and one of the girls was allowed to give her some treats as long as she didn't try to pet her (she does fine in this sort of situation even if she is a bit nervous). Then we walked around the outside of the kids play area, where she could see the kids playing and running but wasn't too close, and we practiced some obedience and just being calm in that situation. Wouldn't you know she acted like it was no big deal! Seems like she is fine (unless she is in my yard) until they come up to her. Anyway I was excited!
I get the frustration, believe me!

What I would do is get the Control Unleashed book ordered right away. It's not too expensive. You can order it through Amazon.com, I think, or Clean Run (probably other places, too). It's a fast read through, and you can start on some of the exercises.

I'm on the Control Unleashed Yahoo group (which is run by the book's author) and I've posted asking for trainer referrals in your area. Hopefully someone will know someone!
Thank you Meadowcat I really appreciate it! I found the writers website and the book costs the same there as on Amazon.com so I will order it from there. Does it cost anything to join the Yahoo group? It would be nice to have a group using the same technique to bounce ideas and such off of.
The CU Yahoo group is free. CU_Dogs : CU_Dogs

There is a ton of information there.
So while you have been looking I have been googleing lol. Meadowcat what do you think of this one? There aren't a lot of good trainers for anything other than the basics around here it seems like but I like the look of this one. Positively Canine Home Page

Oh and I applied to be added to the yahoo group!
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So while you have been looking I have been googleing lol. Meadowcat what do you think of this one? There aren't a lot of good trainers for anything other than the basics around here it seems like but I like the look of this one. Positively Canine Home Page

Oh and I applied to be added to the yahoo group!
Yes! I like what I'm seeing on their website, for sure. I'd put a call in ASAP and see if you can get a private consult set up for the CU trainer specifically to evaluate your dog. It looks like the director, Sandy Case, is the one who uses CU. I'd be on the phone even now :)
Emailed her already and am setting up a class :) She said she doesn't have a CU class going on right now but that the focus class uses many of the same principles. She also said that if I wanted she could set the CU class up. The focus class has a pretty reactive dog in it for the next two weeks though so she said to wait if I want to do that one. Going to talk to her about an evaluation to.
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Emailed her already and am setting up a class :) She said she doesn't have a CU class going on right now but that the focus class uses many of the same principles. She also said that if I wanted she could set the CU class up. The focus class has a pretty reactive dog in it for the next two weeks though so she said to wait if I want to do that one. Going to talk to her about an evaluation to.
Awesome! When I first found my CU trainer we did an evaluation, and I found it super helpful.

I'm so glad you found a great person to work with! Kudos to you for being so proactive about helping your dog be more comfortable.
I am so excited to finally have someone to help! I have just been mudling along by myself without any real idea of what to do. People just kept telling me to build her confidence and she would get over it and that just did not work (though the sports are tons of fun). Then I get told she needs exposure but who wants to volunteer to put their small child in a potentially dangerous situation? I just didn't feel comfortable asking someone to do that. Thank you so much for the help!
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Prevent Dog Aggression

The key here is to prevent the aggression from occurring, and the best way to go about that is by seeking out a professional dog trainer, especially one that specializes in behavioral dog training or dog psychology training.
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