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Anouk Training

5K views 131 replies 13 participants last post by  sissl 
#1 · (Edited)
I posted about her first class here - so this is mostly from class and beyond
First training class - so late
She’s 11 months old but in rural Wisconsin this is when we were able to get into a class that worked in my schedule - still 50 minute drive one way. She did really well with the other dogs. She’s crushing it on house and play manners, and socialization (this is just stuff we had to work on, trainer or none, by her age). She also knows a few fun tricks because I had to keep a growing puppy occupied in upper Midwest winter. Her walking etiquette is a nightmare. We manage on wooded trails because she likes sniffing so much. Boring walks - it’s horrible because she is searching for something interesting ten feet away. I gave in to walking her for her own reasons, almost zero percent mine. This won’t work again in winter.

This past winter I tried some work on the porch to separate her from the other dog but there isn’t much space. Our homework this week is just getting her to walk beside me a little better. This works in part of the yard but she doesn’t totally get it. Flips around in circles, but better yesterday. I shouldn’t have maybe gotten impatient but I took her out in front of the house (no sidewalk, just the street) - practically nobody lives here - it’s a dead end street. She pulled so bad she almost pulled me over. Total hell.

Then I saw a couple dogs were approaching us with their humans (what her total madness was about). All the dogs got happy and excited and it was real mayhem so we just let go of the leashes to let them play. Lots of hopping and bouncing around. Nobody could get to this dead end street by car without us getting the dogs (Anouk also has good recall, while playing too). They all stayed near and just played. I said, “Well, our walking practice is done today!” But she had a lot of fun meeting a couple neighbor dogs. Not snarky types - all wanted to play. Anouk is also not one to run off but I also don’t let her off the leash. It was the other humans’ idea and it made sense in the circumstance. I know I’m not supposed to recommend such a thing, and she also failed walking practice today (or we did). But she liked meeting the new neighbors and is always dog social with the chummy types. Fun for her. But probably yet another moment she entirely got her way - she’s just wanted to meet ANY dog in town but can’t. The ones closest to us would not be a good idea anyway.

Tomorrow we have class tomorrow again and I think her progress on walking will be like a D- to. D. Everything else she’s hitting close to A, though can’t sit or stay super long. This might be and age thing or a maturity thing. I’m not sure. she is managing boredom better without needing constant activity until she is delirious. This is probably just maturity too.

For walking she might always have tension on the leash - my other dog did until older age and it just didn’t bug me. But she has horrid problems lunging with major force at times. I’m not sure if this class will address this level of poor walking but hopefully I get some ideas. It’s a mixed class where some dogs are still learning how to sit nicely.
 
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#3 ·
So, a few things I want to say, and I do mean this in the spirit of trying to help you, so please do take it that way.

First off...I do think that you can have different types of walks. I think I've mentioned before that I do a lot of walking with my dogs on long lines, where they are allowed to wander and sniff. That doesn't mean they are allowed to pull, or lunge, or anything like that. But asking a dog to walk next to you, on a shorter leash, is really an unnatural behavior that we need to spend a lot of time training, and my PERSONAL belief is, that we don't really need to ask them to do it all that often. That's just me.

That said, my first question is...what equipment are you using? I get the impression that you may be using something that is simply not giving you any kind of control over her. While she isn't a huge dog, if she's in a harness it seems very likely to me that she can simply do what she wants - pull, lunge, etc. At this point, I would strongly urge you to consider a piece of equipment that is going to allow you to control her movement so she simply cannot continue to practice these behaviors. The more she practices, the worst they will be. If she were MY dog, she would be in a prong collar at this point. Obviously, you may make other choices, but, dogs do what works. What I mean is, behaviors that produce results that they like are going to be repeated.

And that leads me to the last thing... I know it was not your intent, but you really rewarded her for the behavior you do not like (lunging, pulling, etc), when you dropped her leash and let her play with the other dogs immediately after she was doing that behavior. You really don't want to reinforce the idea that pulling or lunging towards other dogs will get her what she wants.

If you aren't looking for help or advice, and are just venting, feel more than free to disregard! Just preface further posts to let us know you aren't looking for help/advice and I'll keep my mouth shut!
 
#4 ·
I'll just say that I basically do pretty much what MeadowCat does when it comes to training, walking and exercising a young Doberman. And feel free to ignore this if it wasn't what you were looking for by way of information.

I do use a prong. Not on itty bitty Dobe puppies--when I'm doing the initial training for a conformation prospect (and mine all start out like that so they need to have leash manners and manners around other dogs by the time they are six months old) So in the beginnng I start puppies on a soft slip collar and with treats in my left hand--and no leash--inside and I use the treats to encourage them to maintain a location on my left side--fairly near me. I tell them "With me" and after a couple of weeks of that at around 4 months I add a leash--and they will be dragging that leash for a month or so and I'll pick it up and invite the puppy to go with me (via treats).

By the time they are approaching 6 months and very likely their first shows I put a prong on and we start going outside--they only have to be fairly close to me on the left hand side to earn treats so by the time they are at their first shows either the handler or I can trot them around the ring and stack them and I'll have had them in a basic handling class--for them (not me--they need to get used to other dogs who are controlled.

And from the very beginning--no matter what kind of collar and leash the puppy has on he is never, ever allowed to play with other dogs while on leash.

Dogs are the ultimate pragmatists--they only continue to do things that work--working may be a process like the one you are running into with your girl--I think because you aren't being real clear to her what you want your are seeing normal dog behavior which is trying everything to do what she wants to do because she doesn't know what you want her to do.

So if you do something like adding a prong collar she's going to basically self correct if she spends any time flipping around in circles or pulling and lunging.

I don't teach a boring formal heel and I also use long line when walking dogs on a casual walk--I continue to use the command "With Me"--and depending on how long the line is that they are it mean only that I do still want them on my left side but as long as they don't pull (or lunge, spin or circle) they can pretty much do what they please.

And because I do use a prong to establish some control--the command I use for staying close to me is "Walk"--there is still some freedom to do as they like but there is no visiting with other dogs, no pulling, no lunging and I stop those kind of thing by bring the whole walk to a halt. We either resume when the puppy has settle down enough that his brain is working again or we go back into the house and we'll go walking at a different time.

As MeadowCat pointed out--dropping the leash and letter her go and play with the other dogs was basically a bad thing to do--because now you'll end up having to teach her that the behavior was not acceptable. And dogs will, because they are dogs and this is how their brains work, will try the same thing again--and if you can't use something like the prong to prevent her from doing what worked once and trying it again will go on and on.

The real actual heel? Well I do train all of them and they all get to play in Rally, Obedience and Agility (at least) and for Rally and Obedience they do need to learn a proper heel (boring though it may be) and for that, and only for that when training and when in the performance rings--that command is "Heel".

Frankly I don't use it a lot. I work a lot harder on recalls.

Your girl is a smart cookie--like most Dobermans--she's figured out ways to do as she pleases. And teaching her that her way isn't the only way will take time and repetition but she can learn.,

Good luck--she's really cute and I think you'll have a lot of fun with her when you have some better tools to help teach her.

dobebug
 
#5 ·
The other dogs came completely out of the blue, or too quiet behind me. I thought she was lunging at regular neighboring dogs and my leash was too weird and short - I am trying a shorter leash for this. Yes I did reinforce party girl on my street which is almost all she knows. Trails are mostly therapeutic for her. She doesn’t lunge like that when other dogs are passing either. So maybe my house plus dogs, plus she didn’t like doing what I was asking.

I tried prong collar and gave up. I ordered one that was recommended on here and found no difference from one I bought at a pet store - likely I’m bad at using it. I had it in the right location and kept pulling prongs out until it was digging into her skin and I couldn’t pull it tighter. She still shook it down quickly. Not having someone to show me this side by side a few times, it just made me feel too uncomfortable, like I was hurting her in doing something wrong - all do make no difference.

I don’t get the impression this trainer knows about prong collars because she spent a load of time talking about collars and the most “advanced” she seemed to describe was a martingale.

I do want her to be able to walk differently in different settings (she gets bored in town quicker and I don’t know how to unteach her hyena behavior as we round the corner back to my house - I might try attaching her to a sidewalk railing and just walk away twenty feet).

The long leash works fine in the woods. I probably need something as short as 4” in town. She played tug with her leash too long, so I ordered steel wrapped in rubber (like outdoor ties or zip lines). This fixed that much. But I only find these in 6”.

I will ask the instructor if there are ways to actually work on lunging in a class setting. Probably not? I like that she’s able to be in a class. She’s exceeded my hopes in terms of growing up toward being well mannered and nice temperament. Walking is a little better but still horrible and she’s the boss of me.

When she lunges we often just stop a little while. I don’t give her treats for stopping. We just stop moving. This doesn’t seem to last long if she’s having a wound up walk, but what do you do if you do have a lunging dog? I can’t fix her with a prong collar.

This is probably the same he’ll I had with my older dog and I have forgotten. I only believe he’s perfect. He is. But I’m terrible at training walking apparently. I had a one on one trainer work with him when he was young because a trainer like this was available near by. Her only idea for him was a gentle leader with high value treats. That just fell apart or I gave up. I am too impatient with the amount of bucking around against the amount of exercise they need. I took my older dog running so he just didn’t have to pull. Anouk really likes nature walks. Doesn’t strike me as run for the fun of it as much. But she’s STRONGER than my other dog. Why I big failed I know I know I know. Anouk weighs about 48-50 pounds; she will get stronger, maybe not much bigger. My older dog weighed 75 pounds when he was young. Extremely high energy and hated walking but he wasn’t as pure pound for pound force as Anouk!

She currently has a harness with a front clip. She likes it and doesn’t gag herself so it’s the best I’ve found for a crappy situation I couldn’t really figure out by myself directly. Yesterday I had her on a mini leash with the harness clipped on the back. Then I realize I almost can’t even compete with her. It isn’t good.

Maybe the trainer will have some kind of connection for others who might do more specialized training for things like this - I have much more time in the summer. I’d still have to travel. But it would be easier to learn something ideal for her first hand and know how to practice. With this heel treat walk that everyone was doing pretty well last week, Anouk is still acting crazy because she just wants the treats. She doesn’t understand walking beside me and I guess that’s not what I care about. I’ll walk her speed in the woods. She can walk ahead of me in town s little. I don’t know if I can specifically remediate lunging or pulling too hard (sometimes this is also in the woods when a scent is fresh on the trail - I have started running with her; so she’s still the boss of me - this is how I was with my other dog and in the end we both got a lot of exercise and it worked - now I’m 13 years older and I have a stronger dog - I had no idea it she could be stronger than Pasha)
 
#6 ·
This is what she walks with. Best I have come up with. Most success for her. But far from awesome. I use the neon green leash. She can’t play tug with it. That was a disaster I wasn’t sure how to work around at 7-8 months because I couldn’t just walk away from her. Looks kind of awkward but she doesn’t mind this harness. If she hates a harness, she lets me know.

The mini leash on top is more like emergency leash but this is what I tried using for boring walking space on our dead end street yesterday before a couple dogs came up behind us. From back clip, even on the mini leash, I can’t deal with her. It’s hard for me to say if her lunging would have been less on the front clip or if it’s always like that and I just perceive it as more tolerable. We’re able to at least stand still until something passes. She basically ran me to these dogs yesterday, so big points for Anouk. I’m just getting worse for trying the way practice was suggested, though I think we get equally frustrated - whereas all other things I have kept confidence high. Prong collar just doesn’t work for her.

But I knew it would be harder for her to change walking habits if we had to wait until summer. Dogs and humans on the trail are less an issue but she lunges at birds and I don’t see that changing anytime soon. She has a martingale but it just has tags. She still willfully gags herself pulling against a collar.
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#7 ·
Well...here're a couple of tips that may be helpful.

First of all I'm really glad that the head halter fell apart and you couldn't use it. It's recommended that for dobermans and any other breeds with lovely long attractive necks if they get pulled up by the head halter it's possible for the thing to do some actual damage tweaking that neck. And one of the relatively common issues with Doberman's is injury to the neck causing damage to the neck vertebrae.

When using a prong--especially with a dog who has never been trained on one to keep the prong up where it's supposed to be--I use an a additional collar immediately adjacent to the prong--preferable a flat buckle collar--adjusted so that it doesn't slip down.

And when I am training a dog on a prong while I do use a 6 foot training leash--I watch the dog continuously and and don't ever let them actually start pulling the leash taut--in a pulling match with a Doberman--even a half grown puppy I would lose every time. So before they have a chance to pull the leash tight I give a very quick but firm leash correction which makes the prongs "pinch"--and that's what they get any time they start to pull or do anything that might make me drop the leash.

Eventually even my most blockheaded young males get the message about keeping that leash loose and checking in with me periodically to see what I actually might want them to do.

As far as how much exercise a Doberman actually needs--yes, they need exercise but I have known a number of people who were so determined to make sure they were giving the dog enough exercise they ended up having a dog who needed more and more exercise--made for a very athletic dog and a worn out handler. The is a happy medium in there. And as far as learning the proper way to fit and use a prong--I believe that there are several videos, available on line--I haven't had a chance to look them up again but I'll see if I can find them for you.

Don't give up--but do try to come to some sort of compromise with your girl so that you are not having to deal with only what she wants to do.

dobebug
 
#9 ·
Well...here're a couple of tips that may be helpful.

First of all I'm really glad that the head halter fell apart and you couldn't use it. It's recommended that for dobermans and any other breeds with lovely long attractive necks if they get pulled up by the head halter it's possible for the thing to do some actual damage tweaking that neck. And one of the relatively common issues with Doberman's is injury to the neck causing damage to the neck vertebrae.

When using a prong--especially with a dog who has never been trained on one to keep the prong up where it's supposed to be--I use an a additional collar immediately adjacent to the prong--preferable a flat buckle collar--adjusted so that it doesn't slip down.

And when I am training a dog on a prong while I do use a 6 foot training leash--I watch the dog continuously and and don't ever let them actually start pulling the leash taut--in a pulling match with a Doberman--even a half grown puppy I would lose every time. So before they have a chance to pull the leash tight I give a very quick but firm leash correction which makes the prongs "pinch"--and that's what they get any time they start to pull or do anything that might make me drop the leash.

Eventually even my most blockheaded young males get the message about keeping that leash loose and checking in with me periodically to see what I actually might want them to do.

As far as how much exercise a Doberman actually needs--yes, they need exercise but I have known a number of people who were so determined to make sure they were giving the dog enough exercise they ended up having a dog who needed more and more exercise--made for a very athletic dog and a worn out handler. The is a happy medium in there. And as far as learning the proper way to fit and use a prong--I believe that there are several videos, available on line--I haven't had a chance to look them up again but I'll see if I can find them for you.

Don't give up--but do try to come to some sort of compromise with your girl so that you are not having to deal with only what she wants to do.

dobebug
Head halter was tried on my other dog - when a local one-on-one trainer was available. He’s a thicker build but yes it was terrible anyway.

Thanks for video links but I still get confused - maybe mixed information from different sources -

1. is the prong collar supposed to be right up behind the ears and above this side head bones? This is as high as I could get it behind her ears, what I thought I was supposed to - but hard to see on a German Shepherd. And the leash angle you describe makes me think it sits lower on the neck? I had tried holding the leash higher with the prong. It did work for half a minute but she could back up instantly, create so much slack she shook it down.

She shakes down a slip lead the same way so it’s a little disappointing to see videos that make it look so simple. I can hold it tight and high but in a flash she circles and teaches herself how it loosens and she can even back out of it really quick (I only tried with a second leash).

2. Is prong collar used for training only or do people just walk their dogs this way all the time? I was thinking training but we’ve already failed and been walking most days since I got her. I know we could still fix some of it but harder to undo bad habits.

3. one of these videos said you have to apply the right correction for the dog. Anouk does not care if she’s gagging. The harness just helps her not pull against me so hard and also not gag herself. So this is why I baby her and let her boss me. I was just taken aback by her gagging herself by walking. This is where I should have only walked her ten feet in the beginning but we did only walk half a block.

Class melted my brain tonight. Items like recall games. Anouk was all over that stuff before we even started. Easy. Anything for a tiny marshmallow. We did walking in a grassy field. Second most boring for her to pavement. Not an excuse but a good example to the trainer of how nuts she is. The trainer gave us three ways to deal with leash lungs. One sounded possible for Anouk without her gaming me. But we didn’t get much practice before the trainer said she didn’t like the feel of Anouk’s leash (it’s fine for me). So she switched it for a rubbery one. Then Anouk reverted to 7 month old tug of war because she was also sick of new information. Rubber and and textile is fun for tug and I only solved that by getting her a leash that is like a tie out or zip line (metal wound core with rubber exterior - strong but to thin for her to tug - she has lost interest).

The trainer didn’t have a very good handle on her either, though Anouk did better because I’m the person she games with regarding the leash. She needs a single professional or I need 1-2 techniques and not feeling so scrambled in my brain I just cave in again because a multitude of standard ideas don’t seem to work.

The only thing I can think of for the weekend is seeing if I can find out how a print collar is supposed to fit (does anyone have good pics for young dogs?) - and stopping when she lunges, as I have been, but waiting for her to make eye contact with me. This might take some tries but she’s smart enough. Pulling too hard is problem 2, lunging problem 1. Unlike my older dog, she seems capable of messing up my shoulder stabilizer muscles. And she’s still a wimp version of herself. A year from now - well I have to figure it out.

So the class is too easy, or the walking help is not enough. I told the trainer to not waste too much time on us (I felt like she wasn’t checking in on the other dogs because Anouk’s walking was so crazy). It’s nice she is in a class. There is some benefit. But I feel just mentally demotivated by it, or just more bummed out and bombarded with ideas that seem to work for training puppies or easier dogs. She didn’t play enough before we went to class so she kind of went there to party. Laid down nicely. But her walking might have better with some tug of war before class.
 
#8 ·
OK, I went looking for some of the better instructional video's that dealt with prongs.

The ones I thought were the best (and there are dozens of them out there) were those from the Upstate Canine Academy--specifically with the trainer Tom Davis. There is one specifically explaining why the Sprenger prongs are the best and how to fit them. And one that I thought you might like to see "Non Stop Pulling"--Most of the ones done by the Upstate Canine Academy were pretty good I thought.

dobebug
 
#10 · (Edited)
I'm not a dog trainer and only on my 2nd dobe but I have used a prong with both of them to walk them and go on pond adventures. Both of them knew when they saw the prong it was time to go out and have some fun.

Both Coco and now Sugar had a lot of prey drive when it comes to small animals like squirrels and rabbits. Both would vibrate when out on a walk and one would cross our path. I was able to teach Coco to sit immediately and she would sit and vibrate until the critter departed. Coco was very motivated by praise and making her mama happy.

Sugar will sometimes sit (his brain will never be as big as Coco's was 🙂) or he will stand and vibrate but not lunge while on a walk. He did lunge when he was younger but we've been working on that. One difference with Sugar is that he is extremely food motivated so I bring treats with me on our walks. If he is standing and vibrating (fixating really) if I give him a treat he will refocus to me and that treat. I also use "look at me". We practice then when we are walking to the pond and he randomly gets treats for doing so.

Birds don't bother him at the pond but he doesn't like them in the backyard and will chase them away there. Same with squirrels or bunnies. I let him chase them in the backyard because it's his backyard and I know he acts differently at the pond.

She is still young so don't give up hope yet. Like I said I am far from a dog trainer but just giving you examples of what has worked for me.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Here are some pics. Sometimes they post in different order I drop them in so let me know higher or lower sitting and if this is the wrong size. Sitting up she has it sitting lower, below the bump on the back of her head. Higher it’s above the bump. The higher has was my interpretation of right behind the ears but this creeped me out for getting tight at top of her throat. ? Or when I look at these pics is it supposed to be in between the two versions - more under her chin but also still more parallel to her other collar?

In either case I can try a bandanna to hold it up before spending money on a wide collar if I can’t get it to work.

I can search images for fitting a prong collar and there is no standard that I can figure out for her. Right under chin or a higher more angled position. ? I see examples of both of these. Or maybe it’s between the two pics I have here. Videos of German Shepherd in training are helpful but it looks like his collar is lower, though a little bit hard to tell exactly where it is because he’s so fluffy.

She was mad at me after moving it above the back of her head so those pics (position and side view for length are where I’m holding the collar - these were taken after she crawled a bit under the piano bench - so now I’m leaving her alone for the morning and gave her a little venison!). Thanks for any input.

I still think she might give no sh:/;ts pulling against a prong and I might need a trainer over summer to one on one find best help for her pulling plus occasional lunging. Obviously I’m not good at it but techniques that work for other dogs in the class mostly don’t make sense. I told the trainer she’d play games with me on almost anything involving treats. Anyway, willing to see how it works in boring front of house and look both direction better for oncoming walkers.





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#12 · (Edited)
This one came up as 18 plus content (lol) so I’ll try one more time. Length of collar. Prongs cover front and mostly left side of her neck. I only removed prongs from the left side for size. EDIT - I have the collar on wrong. Fixed this. D ring, equal prongs each side. Don’t know what I did before. So my question is only about position - sorry for multiple posts out of idiocy
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#13 · (Edited)
uff. Well maybe you can click on the image? The right side of her neck is mostly chain, not prong - EDIT this whole comment - I didn’t even have the right part attached. Holding the O ring vs D. I don’t know what I had tried before. Anything’s possible for me.

As an aside from two posts with partly failed pics, I’m wondering if Anouk will learn anything she doesn’t already know from this class and not learn enough about walking. She’s extremely observant and likes the class. Walking is a game that might need a more experienced trainer. But the class wasn’t expensive and worth it in the end if she has several weeks hanging out in close proximity to more dogs, keeping attentive to me. She seems to have fun. She handled the basics in a distracting environment but likes to take on the little challenge. It’s like a new game to her that we both win. So the setting is probably of best benefit to keep adding to socialization and staying connected to her human. So not totally crushed by doing a class if she’s too far gone on walking habits for a basic class. It needs better one on one with me and trainer. Or if I can’t get a trainer, not confusing or frustrating both of us so she finds a way to beat me.
 
#14 ·
Sissi, as you probably know from your previous training thread, like Anouk our 2 y/o Neo is a problem straight-line walker, wanting to walk very fast and pull if I don't match his pace. When I stop he stops, however when we continue he wants to walk fast again. Here is a short video clip showing gear I use for him on two daily walks. We were switching off to FC for long LLW training. Whenever I see upcoming dogs or new things, I put the lead back on prong. I found that just one prong link makes the difference on effectiveness of collar and keeps higher up on neck. He respects the prong collar but if it's something that really got his guff up, he'll pull against it so we'll divert, circle or reverse course. Neo also wears his prong collar to public parks as we must pass many people, dogs, scooters and bikes on the relatively narrow paved hiking/biking trails. After he meets dogs he knows or compatible dogs, with several past good encounters, I'll switch lead to harness for some close interaction. For his therapy dog evaluation we can only use flat or Martingale collar so I have been training him on the MGale this last month, which most large breed therapy dogs are fitted with. 2nd Video shows our daily pre-walk ritual from Nest cam where you can see Neo is good at crazy walk turns and reversals. He's perfect inside house but outside on driveway there's lots more distractions around!

Neo LLW Flat Collar Switch 5-11-23 (4K GoPro)


Neo FC Pre-Walk Ritual 5-7-23 (Nest HD)
 
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#15 ·
Thank you. This looks like it’s right at the bottom of the bump on the neck. ? She did circles well for a short while. I basically gave up having her keep her focus on me enough - just to get her some exercise that didn’t pull my arm off (the front clip harness - still terrible and will demolish me by next year). When I stop, she will stop and look at me, like your video. When she’s on a mission or picks up a pretty exciting scent, I disappear from her attention almost entirely. I can still get her to stop but it requires too much pull against her harness. Mainly this is what I don’t think it’s good for either of us long term. That’s the summary I suppose - I edit my typos too much - but don’t edit my amount of verbiage well. Glad for anyone who can follow my threads!
 
#16 ·
She’s lounging in her prong collar. I will take it off in a couple hours and not even bother trying anything until tomorrow. Early on, one of my problems was trying to take complex things like walking in too many steps all at once. So she can just wear the collar. Maybe all I will try next is finding a way she can’t shake it down and still let her just hang out.
 
#17 ·
Prong collars should only be on during training.
 
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#18 ·
@sissl .......House of K9 spells out vividly the correct application of the H&S pinch collar ...... please spend the 8 minutes to view to eliminate the pitfalls of inadvertently errant well intended yet counterproductive and inhumane use.
 
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#19 ·
MikeP, here is one of two YouTube videos linked directly from Herm Sprenger website FAQ page about fitting their prong collars.
FAQ | Herm. Sprenger USA (hermsprengerusa.com)

It directly contradicts the video you posted by placing O-ring leash connection on top or side of neck. Plus trainer uses a safety link to connect prong collar to flat collar as a safety backup. I have had Neo's prong come apart in both OB class and on walks several times in past when he got jumpy from fatigue or squirrels. Since then I use a connection to flat collar. Also on walks (still training) I switch between prong and flat (or Martingale) depending on what were doing on that walk and situation. As the instructor says in video, prongs can get bent after lots of use and sometimes need to be reshaped. That's why I use the HS prong with the quick release buckle, which on new design has safety latch.

Fitting Prong Collar- Linked from Herm Sprenger Website
 
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#20 ·
Since then I use a connection to flat collar. Also on walks (still training) I switch between prong and flat (or Martingale) depending on what were doing on that walk and situation.
This is what we’ll end up doing. The least interesting place to walk is also the most exciting. Roads and parking lots (blah) adjacent to trails (omg). We will also practice walking around the block. We need to be able to walk next winter without her pulling me over ice. I use my older dog as balance. Anouk - ha. But to still have her trail walks we will use her harness for I don’t know how long. She might be able to use prong practice on trails too.
 
#21 · (Edited)
First before you call me a maniac - I’ve found only one video that describes what “tight” prong collar is for dummies. Not being able to move it easily around the next at all, but still being able to move it side to side - just not so easily. ? I have to lift prongs and wiggle this back in place after she shakes it to the side. I really feel like removing a prong would be too tight. ?

She can shake this down to her throat instantly (with tightness that you can’t move it side to side unless you pick prongs a bit up and wiggle over). These are cheapo collars to test this issue - prong is Herm Sprenger. She shook it to this height. So is this good enough or too low? She has a ridiculous 4” worth of collar under the prong but she can sniff and move fine. I’ll take any suggestions for height here or other ideas to help her keep it in place. Eventually she might not try so much to shake it off. Twisting it is common and I understand it’s normal to have to adjust the prong as you go sometimes. We get absolutely nowhere on her ability to shake it around her throat without something blocking it this way.

She did well with a little bit of practice walking today on this relatively unexciting road. No pulling and no protest to all this garb. She’s just not used to the prong - she shakes it whatever length I have it, even if it’s almost too tight to get a prong out (why I quit using it a few months ago - I just felt too uncomfortable trying to figure it out on my own and I couldn’t find clear or consistent info on how to really make it work for her neck safely - maybe her neck has a weird shape, no idea but this odd get-up seems to work - though it’s probably still wrong because it is so unconventional).

Her backup is one of these normal collars, attached, though she can slip a collar. If she saw a bird on the ground close to her I’d use the mini leash on the back of her harness to take pressure off the prong. She goes most insane over birds. I just don’t exist when she sees a bird - people and dogs are not a big issue. A robin? Let’s Go!
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#25 · (Edited)
Double whammy post ..... my miscue .....see below
 
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#29 ·
Base of the ears so you need two more flat collars :)
But correction to work you have to pull straight up quick snap release pressure if your correcting is pulling back your wasting your time your promoting her to pull harder

I never use prongs. 1/2” slip lead properly use 15 minutes your done. With Couple reminders sessions after that then hang up slip lead for next pup
 
#30 ·
Base of the ears so you need two more flat collars :)
But correction to work you have to pull straight up quick snap release pressure if your correcting is pulling back your wasting your time your promoting her to pull harder

I never use prongs. 1/2” slip lead properly use 15 minutes your done. With Couple reminders sessions after that then hang up slip lead for next pup
She can so instantly turn and pull herself out of slip lead (even held without slack from overhead). Maybe I need a shorter and thinner one for her. ? I would rather figure that out so she wouldn’t need practically a whole year to remediate with prong but could switch from correction right to normal walking on the path. I can try that too today with a backup leash. Last time I tried it she fixated instantly on a rope in my hand - I have a leash she can’t tug because I just got sick of that issue also and every suggested way to fix it (tug of war with leash). She is more motivated by walking in the woods now. But walking has been a game for her. I practically eliminated walking altogether by March. In April she was taking her time on the trails, but it was all sniffing. Now she’s back to pulling so I had false hope.
 
#34 ·
Sissi--here's another tip. Dogs have several built in responses to stuff. One of them is pulling--if you pull on a dog--the dog will pull against the direct of the pull.

The real trick when it comes to pulling, spinning and lunging is to not let the dog get to the end of the leash which activates that resistence to being pulled. A quick snap correction while the leash still has slack will work much better but requires timing and practice.

But basically you are seeing this when Anouk pulls against the leash until she's gagging and choking.

dobebug
 
#35 ·
yes, another thing I need to stick to if she can transition to a collar again. I treated her like such a baby when I adopted her. She was so timid, so I focused on experiences and house manners but let her get away with crappy walking because I have a hard time being stern. This is also my personality so I have to practice (I had one very warm and friendly parent who was a bit of a pushover and I am more like this - but I’m not a brat probably because I had one stern parent!)

I’m pretty good at just giving Anouk the shaft or leaving her in the garage if she doesn’t want to come inside right away. Not many rewards in the house. More like revoking privileges (end of playing if she’s ridiculous etc). On walks I’d be best at taking her immediately back to the car. She does fine for part of a trail, then seems to know we are going places. Would she put it together if we got only 1/4 mile with too many corrections and just turned around? Initially we did only go on shorter walks in the woods and she got treats back at the car for being decent. So she is maybe calculating enough to even put this together (?) - so if she gets amped up at 1/2 mile she still gets a one mile walk.
 
#37 ·
good idea, thanks - I’ve done this teaching her stuff at home (treats, snuggle her head in my hands a little, just “good girl)..) … on walks I have probably felt we needed treats above all else. She’s really excited when she sees me put them in my pocket but I don’t think it matters between these in terms of reinforcers, or probably when she stubbornly does not care enough. She might be half bored of them. And probably she doesn’t really pay attention to me any better for it. Getting to know her in the setting, it seems possible she only fakes it for a moment. Head snuggle sometimes might remind her I’m there too.
 
#38 ·
We went on a short walk with slip leash. This confused and frustrated her more - which I think I prefer because I’m probably able to use it better. There was a little confusion over whether she was allowed to walk or sniff. She got plenty of treats for sniffing in place. Treats for normal walking, good girl etc. I did run out of treats. I probably need more to get this going. While not the most food motivated it lets her know she’s doing the right thing. I threw some “beef pearls” in my pocket too. Mini sausages or something.

This can transition to a regular leash too? This might be less confusing for both of us at this point. Adjusting the leash many times as needed starting out. She also fixates on nice ropes but did fine with this, whereas last time I tried it she fixated on trying for tug of war (but I also wasn’t using it well).

Can I give her a little pop if it has slipped to the middle of her neck? Same thing, kept slipping, I had it really tight, but at least it was much easier to readjust vs pulling prongs out of her neck. Long story short of it, I think I just feel better about it and I’m honestly glad if it pissed her off more than how I arranged the prong collar. We’ll probably make some progress

One thing I didn’t expect was how she could leap like a donkey when she saw another dog in the parking lot. I didn’t think she was leash reactive too much because she just lunges some, doesn’t bark, and has lots of fun in close proximity to other dogs in class. But now I understand the front clip harness was keeping her on the ground. (I clipped her leash to the front of her harness until that other dog was in the car).
 
#39 ·
Slip lead. I like better. She hates more. Means it will probably work best. But I tighten it well and the leather stopper slips out of place the second she bends down to sniff. So I readjust before she can start pulling against her throat. So there is no way to let a dog sniff with these worn for training I assume?

Pics - I think I put it on her the right way, and of course stayed this way when I held taught overhead. When she lunged straight down to sniff it loosened. So I just adjusted. She is getting the hang of it a little. I don’t want her to think sniffing is being punished. There is no boring place for her. She loves sniffing pavement too.

edit - now I see neck pulling position posted first. This is right after she has sniffed the ground and I have to re-do the stopper. Close ups of that too. Are they supposed to stay in place better? It’s a leather band, nothing that can’t slide on
Acrylic type rope easily
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#41 ·
Slip lead should be used for strict heel control walking by your side not in front of you or control in reactive situations
not sniffing use flat collar separate lead

Slip lead ring should be under neck to the side your walking on if she’s on your left you have it on right if she’s in your right take it off put it opposite way
I had two leashes connected so she wouldn’t choke herself. But one is to a harness because she will gag herself on anything at flat collar level. So it does just need to be constantly adjusted if letting her sniff. ?
 
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