Anouk Training

So, a few things I want to say, and I do mean this in the spirit of trying to help you, so please do take it that way.

First off...I do think that you can have different types of walks. I think I've mentioned before that I do a lot of walking with my dogs on long lines, where they are allowed to wander and sniff. That doesn't mean they are allowed to pull, or lunge, or anything like that. But asking a dog to walk next to you, on a shorter leash, is really an unnatural behavior that we need to spend a lot of time training, and my PERSONAL belief is, that we don't really need to ask them to do it all that often. That's just me.

That said, my first question is...what equipment are you using? I get the impression that you may be using something that is simply not giving you any kind of control over her. While she isn't a huge dog, if she's in a harness it seems very likely to me that she can simply do what she wants - pull, lunge, etc. At this point, I would strongly urge you to consider a piece of equipment that is going to allow you to control her movement so she simply cannot continue to practice these behaviors. The more she practices, the worst they will be. If she were MY dog, she would be in a prong collar at this point. Obviously, you may make other choices, but, dogs do what works. What I mean is, behaviors that produce results that they like are going to be repeated.

And that leads me to the last thing... I know it was not your intent, but you really rewarded her for the behavior you do not like (lunging, pulling, etc), when you dropped her leash and let her play with the other dogs immediately after she was doing that behavior. You really don't want to reinforce the idea that pulling or lunging towards other dogs will get her what she wants.

If you aren't looking for help or advice, and are just venting, feel more than free to disregard! Just preface further posts to let us know you aren't looking for help/advice and I'll keep my mouth shut!

I'll just say that I basically do pretty much what MeadowCat does when it comes to training, walking and exercising a young Doberman. And feel free to ignore this if it wasn't what you were looking for by way of information.

I do use a prong. Not on itty bitty Dobe puppies--when I'm doing the initial training for a conformation prospect (and mine all start out like that so they need to have leash manners and manners around other dogs by the time they are six months old) So in the beginnng I start puppies on a soft slip collar and with treats in my left hand--and no leash--inside and I use the treats to encourage them to maintain a location on my left side--fairly near me. I tell them "With me" and after a couple of weeks of that at around 4 months I add a leash--and they will be dragging that leash for a month or so and I'll pick it up and invite the puppy to go with me (via treats).

By the time they are approaching 6 months and very likely their first shows I put a prong on and we start going outside--they only have to be fairly close to me on the left hand side to earn treats so by the time they are at their first shows either the handler or I can trot them around the ring and stack them and I'll have had them in a basic handling class--for them (not me--they need to get used to other dogs who are controlled.

And from the very beginning--no matter what kind of collar and leash the puppy has on he is never, ever allowed to play with other dogs while on leash.

Dogs are the ultimate pragmatists--they only continue to do things that work--working may be a process like the one you are running into with your girl--I think because you aren't being real clear to her what you want your are seeing normal dog behavior which is trying everything to do what she wants to do because she doesn't know what you want her to do.

So if you do something like adding a prong collar she's going to basically self correct if she spends any time flipping around in circles or pulling and lunging.

I don't teach a boring formal heel and I also use long line when walking dogs on a casual walk--I continue to use the command "With Me"--and depending on how long the line is that they are it mean only that I do still want them on my left side but as long as they don't pull (or lunge, spin or circle) they can pretty much do what they please.

And because I do use a prong to establish some control--the command I use for staying close to me is "Walk"--there is still some freedom to do as they like but there is no visiting with other dogs, no pulling, no lunging and I stop those kind of thing by bring the whole walk to a halt. We either resume when the puppy has settle down enough that his brain is working again or we go back into the house and we'll go walking at a different time.

As MeadowCat pointed out--dropping the leash and letter her go and play with the other dogs was basically a bad thing to do--because now you'll end up having to teach her that the behavior was not acceptable. And dogs will, because they are dogs and this is how their brains work, will try the same thing again--and if you can't use something like the prong to prevent her from doing what worked once and trying it again will go on and on.

The real actual heel? Well I do train all of them and they all get to play in Rally, Obedience and Agility (at least) and for Rally and Obedience they do need to learn a proper heel (boring though it may be) and for that, and only for that when training and when in the performance rings--that command is "Heel".

Frankly I don't use it a lot. I work a lot harder on recalls.

Your girl is a smart cookie--like most Dobermans--she's figured out ways to do as she pleases. And teaching her that her way isn't the only way will take time and repetition but she can learn.,

Good luck--she's really cute and I think you'll have a lot of fun with her when you have some better tools to help teach her.

dobebug

The other dogs came completely out of the blue, or too quiet behind me. I thought she was lunging at regular neighboring dogs and my leash was too weird and short - I am trying a shorter leash for this. Yes I did reinforce party girl on my street which is almost all she knows. Trails are mostly therapeutic for her. She doesn’t lunge like that when other dogs are passing either. So maybe my house plus dogs, plus she didn’t like doing what I was asking.

I tried prong collar and gave up. I ordered one that was recommended on here and found no difference from one I bought at a pet store - likely I’m bad at using it. I had it in the right location and kept pulling prongs out until it was digging into her skin and I couldn’t pull it tighter. She still shook it down quickly. Not having someone to show me this side by side a few times, it just made me feel too uncomfortable, like I was hurting her in doing something wrong - all do make no difference.

I don’t get the impression this trainer knows about prong collars because she spent a load of time talking about collars and the most “advanced” she seemed to describe was a martingale.

I do want her to be able to walk differently in different settings (she gets bored in town quicker and I don’t know how to unteach her hyena behavior as we round the corner back to my house - I might try attaching her to a sidewalk railing and just walk away twenty feet).

The long leash works fine in the woods. I probably need something as short as 4” in town. She played tug with her leash too long, so I ordered steel wrapped in rubber (like outdoor ties or zip lines). This fixed that much. But I only find these in 6”.

I will ask the instructor if there are ways to actually work on lunging in a class setting. Probably not? I like that she’s able to be in a class. She’s exceeded my hopes in terms of growing up toward being well mannered and nice temperament. Walking is a little better but still horrible and she’s the boss of me.

When she lunges we often just stop a little while. I don’t give her treats for stopping. We just stop moving. This doesn’t seem to last long if she’s having a wound up walk, but what do you do if you do have a lunging dog? I can’t fix her with a prong collar.

This is probably the same he’ll I had with my older dog and I have forgotten. I only believe he’s perfect. He is. But I’m terrible at training walking apparently. I had a one on one trainer work with him when he was young because a trainer like this was available near by. Her only idea for him was a gentle leader with high value treats. That just fell apart or I gave up. I am too impatient with the amount of bucking around against the amount of exercise they need. I took my older dog running so he just didn’t have to pull. Anouk really likes nature walks. Doesn’t strike me as run for the fun of it as much. But she’s STRONGER than my other dog. Why I big failed I know I know I know. Anouk weighs about 48-50 pounds; she will get stronger, maybe not much bigger. My older dog weighed 75 pounds when he was young. Extremely high energy and hated walking but he wasn’t as pure pound for pound force as Anouk!

She currently has a harness with a front clip. She likes it and doesn’t gag herself so it’s the best I’ve found for a crappy situation I couldn’t really figure out by myself directly. Yesterday I had her on a mini leash with the harness clipped on the back. Then I realize I almost can’t even compete with her. It isn’t good.

Maybe the trainer will have some kind of connection for others who might do more specialized training for things like this - I have much more time in the summer. I’d still have to travel. But it would be easier to learn something ideal for her first hand and know how to practice. With this heel treat walk that everyone was doing pretty well last week, Anouk is still acting crazy because she just wants the treats. She doesn’t understand walking beside me and I guess that’s not what I care about. I’ll walk her speed in the woods. She can walk ahead of me in town s little. I don’t know if I can specifically remediate lunging or pulling too hard (sometimes this is also in the woods when a scent is fresh on the trail - I have started running with her; so she’s still the boss of me - this is how I was with my other dog and in the end we both got a lot of exercise and it worked - now I’m 13 years older and I have a stronger dog - I had no idea it she could be stronger than Pasha)

This is what she walks with. Best I have come up with. Most success for her. But far from awesome. I use the neon green leash. She can’t play tug with it. That was a disaster I wasn’t sure how to work around at 7-8 months because I couldn’t just walk away from her. Looks kind of awkward but she doesn’t mind this harness. If she hates a harness, she lets me know.

The mini leash on top is more like emergency leash but this is what I tried using for boring walking space on our dead end street yesterday before a couple dogs came up behind us. From back clip, even on the mini leash, I can’t deal with her. It’s hard for me to say if her lunging would have been less on the front clip or if it’s always like that and I just perceive it as more tolerable. We’re able to at least stand still until something passes. She basically ran me to these dogs yesterday, so big points for Anouk. I’m just getting worse for trying the way practice was suggested, though I think we get equally frustrated - whereas all other things I have kept confidence high. Prong collar just doesn’t work for her.

But I knew it would be harder for her to change walking habits if we had to wait until summer. Dogs and humans on the trail are less an issue but she lunges at birds and I don’t see that changing anytime soon. She has a martingale but it just has tags. She still willfully gags herself pulling against a collar.

Well...here're a couple of tips that may be helpful.

First of all I'm really glad that the head halter fell apart and you couldn't use it. It's recommended that for dobermans and any other breeds with lovely long attractive necks if they get pulled up by the head halter it's possible for the thing to do some actual damage tweaking that neck. And one of the relatively common issues with Doberman's is injury to the neck causing damage to the neck vertebrae.

When using a prong--especially with a dog who has never been trained on one to keep the prong up where it's supposed to be--I use an a additional collar immediately adjacent to the prong--preferable a flat buckle collar--adjusted so that it doesn't slip down.

And when I am training a dog on a prong while I do use a 6 foot training leash--I watch the dog continuously and and don't ever let them actually start pulling the leash taut--in a pulling match with a Doberman--even a half grown puppy I would lose every time. So before they have a chance to pull the leash tight I give a very quick but firm leash correction which makes the prongs "pinch"--and that's what they get any time they start to pull or do anything that might make me drop the leash.

Eventually even my most blockheaded young males get the message about keeping that leash loose and checking in with me periodically to see what I actually might want them to do.

As far as how much exercise a Doberman actually needs--yes, they need exercise but I have known a number of people who were so determined to make sure they were giving the dog enough exercise they ended up having a dog who needed more and more exercise--made for a very athletic dog and a worn out handler. The is a happy medium in there. And as far as learning the proper way to fit and use a prong--I believe that there are several videos, available on line--I haven't had a chance to look them up again but I'll see if I can find them for you.

Don't give up--but do try to come to some sort of compromise with your girl so that you are not having to deal with only what she wants to do.

dobebug

dobebug said:

Well...here're a couple of tips that may be helpful.

First of all I'm really glad that the head halter fell apart and you couldn't use it. It's recommended that for dobermans and any other breeds with lovely long attractive necks if they get pulled up by the head halter it's possible for the thing to do some actual damage tweaking that neck. And one of the relatively common issues with Doberman's is injury to the neck causing damage to the neck vertebrae.

When using a prong--especially with a dog who has never been trained on one to keep the prong up where it's supposed to be--I use an a additional collar immediately adjacent to the prong--preferable a flat buckle collar--adjusted so that it doesn't slip down.

And when I am training a dog on a prong while I do use a 6 foot training leash--I watch the dog continuously and and don't ever let them actually start pulling the leash taut--in a pulling match with a Doberman--even a half grown puppy I would lose every time. So before they have a chance to pull the leash tight I give a very quick but firm leash correction which makes the prongs "pinch"--and that's what they get any time they start to pull or do anything that might make me drop the leash.

Eventually even my most blockheaded young males get the message about keeping that leash loose and checking in with me periodically to see what I actually might want them to do.

As far as how much exercise a Doberman actually needs--yes, they need exercise but I have known a number of people who were so determined to make sure they were giving the dog enough exercise they ended up having a dog who needed more and more exercise--made for a very athletic dog and a worn out handler. The is a happy medium in there. And as far as learning the proper way to fit and use a prong--I believe that there are several videos, available on line--I haven't had a chance to look them up again but I'll see if I can find them for you.

Don't give up--but do try to come to some sort of compromise with your girl so that you are not having to deal with only what she wants to do.

dobebug

Click to expand...

Head halter was tried on my other dog - when a local one-on-one trainer was available. He’s a thicker build but yes it was terrible anyway.

Thanks for video links but I still get confused - maybe mixed information from different sources -

1. is the prong collar supposed to be right up behind the ears and above this side head bones? This is as high as I could get it behind her ears, what I thought I was supposed to - but hard to see on a German Shepherd. And the leash angle you describe makes me think it sits lower on the neck? I had tried holding the leash higher with the prong. It did work for half a minute but she could back up instantly, create so much slack she shook it down.

She shakes down a slip lead the same way so it’s a little disappointing to see videos that make it look so simple. I can hold it tight and high but in a flash she circles and teaches herself how it loosens and she can even back out of it really quick (I only tried with a second leash).

2. Is prong collar used for training only or do people just walk their dogs this way all the time? I was thinking training but we’ve already failed and been walking most days since I got her. I know we could still fix some of it but harder to undo bad habits.

3. one of these videos said you have to apply the right correction for the dog. Anouk does not care if she’s gagging. The harness just helps her not pull against me so hard and also not gag herself. So this is why I baby her and let her boss me. I was just taken aback by her gagging herself by walking. This is where I should have only walked her ten feet in the beginning but we did only walk half a block.

Class melted my brain tonight. Items like recall games. Anouk was all over that stuff before we even started. Easy. Anything for a tiny marshmallow. We did walking in a grassy field. Second most boring for her to pavement. Not an excuse but a good example to the trainer of how nuts she is. The trainer gave us three ways to deal with leash lungs. One sounded possible for Anouk without her gaming me. But we didn’t get much practice before the trainer said she didn’t like the feel of Anouk’s leash (it’s fine for me). So she switched it for a rubbery one. Then Anouk reverted to 7 month old tug of war because she was also sick of new information. Rubber and and textile is fun for tug and I only solved that by getting her a leash that is like a tie out or zip line (metal wound core with rubber exterior - strong but to thin for her to tug - she has lost interest).

The trainer didn’t have a very good handle on her either, though Anouk did better because I’m the person she games with regarding the leash. She needs a single professional or I need 1-2 techniques and not feeling so scrambled in my brain I just cave in again because a multitude of standard ideas don’t seem to work.

The only thing I can think of for the weekend is seeing if I can find out how a print collar is supposed to fit (does anyone have good pics for young dogs?) - and stopping when she lunges, as I have been, but waiting for her to make eye contact with me. This might take some tries but she’s smart enough. Pulling too hard is problem 2, lunging problem 1. Unlike my older dog, she seems capable of messing up my shoulder stabilizer muscles. And she’s still a wimp version of herself. A year from now - well I have to figure it out.

So the class is too easy, or the walking help is not enough. I told the trainer to not waste too much time on us (I felt like she wasn’t checking in on the other dogs because Anouk’s walking was so crazy). It’s nice she is in a class. There is some benefit. But I feel just mentally demotivated by it, or just more bummed out and bombarded with ideas that seem to work for training puppies or easier dogs. She didn’t play enough before we went to class so she kind of went there to party. Laid down nicely. But her walking might have better with some tug of war before class.

I'm not a dog trainer and only on my 2nd dobe but I have used a prong with both of them to walk them and go on pond adventures. Both of them knew when they saw the prong it was time to go out and have some fun.

Both Coco and now Sugar had a lot of prey drive when it comes to small animals like squirrels and rabbits. Both would vibrate when out on a walk and one would cross our path. I was able to teach Coco to sit immediately and she would sit and vibrate until the critter departed. Coco was very motivated by praise and making her mama happy.

Sugar will sometimes sit (his brain will never be as big as Coco's was 🙂) or he will stand and vibrate but not lunge while on a walk. He did lunge when he was younger but we've been working on that. One difference with Sugar is that he is extremely food motivated so I bring treats with me on our walks. If he is standing and vibrating (fixating really) if I give him a treat he will refocus to me and that treat. I also use "look at me". We practice then when we are walking to the pond and he randomly gets treats for doing so.

Birds don't bother him at the pond but he doesn't like them in the backyard and will chase them away there. Same with squirrels or bunnies. I let him chase them in the backyard because it's his backyard and I know he acts differently at the pond.

She is still young so don't give up hope yet. Like I said I am far from a dog trainer but just giving you examples of what has worked for me.

Here are some pics. Sometimes they post in different order I drop them in so let me know higher or lower sitting and if this is the wrong size. Sitting up she has it sitting lower, below the bump on the back of her head. Higher it’s above the bump. The higher has was my interpretation of right behind the ears but this creeped me out for getting tight at top of her throat. ? Or when I look at these pics is it supposed to be in between the two versions - more under her chin but also still more parallel to her other collar?

In either case I can try a bandanna to hold it up before spending money on a wide collar if I can’t get it to work.

I can search images for fitting a prong collar and there is no standard that I can figure out for her. Right under chin or a higher more angled position. ? I see examples of both of these. Or maybe it’s between the two pics I have here. Videos of German Shepherd in training are helpful but it looks like his collar is lower, though a little bit hard to tell exactly where it is because he’s so fluffy.

She was mad at me after moving it above the back of her head so those pics (position and side view for length are where I’m holding the collar - these were taken after she crawled a bit under the piano bench - so now I’m leaving her alone for the morning and gave her a little venison!). Thanks for any input.

I still think she might give no sh:/;ts pulling against a prong and I might need a trainer over summer to one on one find best help for her pulling plus occasional lunging. Obviously I’m not good at it but techniques that work for other dogs in the class mostly don’t make sense. I told the trainer she’d play games with me on almost anything involving treats. Anyway, willing to see how it works in boring front of house and look both direction better for oncoming walkers.

uff. Well maybe you can click on the image? The right side of her neck is mostly chain, not prong - EDIT this whole comment - I didn’t even have the right part attached. Holding the O ring vs D. I don’t know what I had tried before. Anything’s possible for me.

As an aside from two posts with partly failed pics, I’m wondering if Anouk will learn anything she doesn’t already know from this class and not learn enough about walking. She’s extremely observant and likes the class. Walking is a game that might need a more experienced trainer. But the class wasn’t expensive and worth it in the end if she has several weeks hanging out in close proximity to more dogs, keeping attentive to me. She seems to have fun. She handled the basics in a distracting environment but likes to take on the little challenge. It’s like a new game to her that we both win. So the setting is probably of best benefit to keep adding to socialization and staying connected to her human. So not totally crushed by doing a class if she’s too far gone on walking habits for a basic class. It needs better one on one with me and trainer. Or if I can’t get a trainer, not confusing or frustrating both of us so she finds a way to beat me.

Sissi, as you probably know from your previous training thread, like Anouk our 2 y/o Neo is a problem straight-line walker, wanting to walk very fast and pull if I don't match his pace. When I stop he stops, however when we continue he wants to walk fast again. Here is a short video clip showing gear I use for him on two daily walks. We were switching off to FC for long LLW training. Whenever I see upcoming dogs or new things, I put the lead back on prong. I found that just one prong link makes the difference on effectiveness of collar and keeps higher up on neck. He respects the prong collar but if it's something that really got his guff up, he'll pull against it so we'll divert, circle or reverse course. Neo also wears his prong collar to public parks as we must pass many people, dogs, scooters and bikes on the relatively narrow paved hiking/biking trails. After he meets dogs he knows or compatible dogs, with several past good encounters, I'll switch lead to harness for some close interaction. For his therapy dog evaluation we can only use flat or Martingale collar so I have been training him on the MGale this last month, which most large breed therapy dogs are fitted with. 2nd Video shows our daily pre-walk ritual from Nest cam where you can see Neo is good at crazy walk turns and reversals. He's perfect inside house but outside on driveway there's lots more distractions around!

Neo LLW Flat Collar Switch 5-11-23 (4K GoPro)

Neo FC Pre-Walk Ritual 5-7-23 (Nest HD)

MikeP, here is one of two YouTube videos linked directly from Herm Sprenger website FAQ page about fitting their prong collars.
FAQ | Herm. Sprenger USA (hermsprengerusa.com)

It directly contradicts the video you posted by placing O-ring leash connection on top or side of neck. Plus trainer uses a safety link to connect prong collar to flat collar as a safety backup. I have had Neo's prong come apart in both OB class and on walks several times in past when he got jumpy from fatigue or squirrels. Since then I use a connection to flat collar. Also on walks (still training) I switch between prong and flat (or Martingale) depending on what were doing on that walk and situation. As the instructor says in video, prongs can get bent after lots of use and sometimes need to be reshaped. That's why I use the HS prong with the quick release buckle, which on new design has safety latch.

Fitting Prong Collar- Linked from Herm Sprenger Website