Another Novice.

DobeNovice said:

I agree that attending as many shows as possible to personally see breeders and their brood would be best, but unfortunately I do not have that luxury at this time. I may be able to visit a handful of breeders after extensive internet/phone research. Nevertheless, I am more interested in a companion, with the possibility of showing or obedience trials.

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Showing a dog is a big commitment in the Dobe ring. Responsible show breeders that produce litters only want their top graded show prospects in the litter to actually go to show homes that are serious about showing the dog to a CH. If you are on the fence about it, then you should probably decide not to get a show prospects as they belong with owners that will show them. MurreyDobe is right, you need to find a breeder you feel comfortable with, can trust, and a line that you really like. Going to shows are essential when searching for a show prospect. Also some lines mature slower than others, just a thought there too, that line might not be as competitive while they are stagy and growing into themselves.

There are some in the litter that might not be as competitive at this stage as the top show prospects; maybe you could give a good home to one of those marginal prospects that aren’t quite a pet but aren’t quite show prospects so if you don’t decide to show in conformation it won’t be such a big deal. The only problem is to begin with this dog oftentimes won’t be as competitive as the others in the ring and the Dobe ring is hard enough with a solid prospect and you might become discouraged. But newbies to the show ring shouldn’t get discouraged easily regardless, you need to have a lot of commitment and remember another day, another dog show. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. You have to pay your dues sometimes when you are new to the game. You have to stick with it. Talk about your concerns and any reservations you might have with total commitment to showing in conformation with your chosen breeders.

For the most part each dog in the litter shows great temperament and was bred with care and a concern for health, so you can be sure in getting a companion from this type of litter no short cuts have been taken and you will benefit from that for years to come. Dobermans are naturally very smart and easy to train for most so more than likely many in the litter are solid obedience and rally prospects. There are other doggie sports that they might be prospects for as well. Be sure to tell the breeder your certain energy, prey drive, size, performance, and show requirements as specifically as you can since the more information they have to work with the better than can usually make a match.

Most all of the Dobes in each litter make outstanding pets. We show our Dobes in various venues, but they are our cherished pets first and foremost. This however does not mean I am not serious about showing and training them. ALL Dobermans, show, performance, etc. deserve to be someone's much loved pet regardless of what doggie sports they engage in.

Are you a handler; are you willing to learn specific Doberman handling skills, willing to pay someone each time they take your dog in the ring for a show regardless of winning or not? Willing to research handlers before hand and know what ones are good and which ones have no idea? Willing to have a mentor(s) if needed? How much traveling would you do for shows personally? If you can’t frequent them much now, what would it be like later when you want to show? Would you be willing to let your dog go off with a handler to travel to show if your personal skills are not benefiting your dog? Are you willing to do some show training regardless of it you intend to handle or not and take the dog to puppy kindergarten for socialization and conformation class as well? Lots of socialization should be done anyway for each and every Doberman and dog – regardless of any other fact. It is important you have a training area close by and time to devote to the training of a show prospect. These are basic surface questions you should answer.

DobeNovice said:

dobesanddragons,

Thank you for the informative reply! I know showing a dobe is a great commitment; that is why I am "on the fence". I think acquiring a puppy that isn't "pick of the litter" but has some potential is best for me. As you said, "...they are our cherished pets first and foremost."--that is the core philosophy I have for my future companion--anything else is "icing on the cake".

I don't intend to take away from those who may "deserve" a show prospect, but I think I am entitled to a dobe that best suites my lifestyle. If that dobe happens to be blessed with champion qualities, then why can't I take him home, likewise if the best suited pup for me is judged to be of poor show quality, I'll be happy to take him home.

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Hi Dobe Novice,

D&D's advice is very good. As far as "deserving" a show prospect--I don't think you took that as it was intended. Most of the better breeders (and this doesn't necessarily mean the most expensive puppies offered) are understandably reluctant to sell a hot conformation prospect to a prospective puppy owner who really wants a great companion dog that they might then decide to show or train in performance.

It's generally going to be easier to find a breeder with nice dogs of good health, temperament and conformation who will sell you a not quite show prospect than looking for the pick pup of a litter.

There is more wiggle room when looking for a companion--and frankly not all of the best show prospects are the best choices for an easy to live with companion. Some of the best show dogs come not only with good conformation but an "look at me" attitude which isn't always as laid back as many folks would want in a companion.

Unless your driving desire is to have the best possible show prospect around I'd go looking for a good companion and do performance with that dog which should get you to enough shows that you might have a better idea whether you even really want to consider showing and a show prospect.

The next time around you'll have a better idea of what you really want and where and how to find it.

It makes most of the breeders a little nervous to have a puppy hunter says that they maybe want a show dog but they aren't sure. Almost all breeders of prospective show dogs have had the horrible experience of selling a nice puppy to what looked like a great show home only to have the people either decide after one show they didn't like it or they didn't like the idea of having to keep a dog intact and neutered or spayed it at 6 months without discussing it with the breeder. Or in the case of all too many dogs--the new owners just disappeared off the face of the earth with the puppy. And I always remember a friend of mine whose pick male disappeared in that way and showed up several years later, many states away, bearing the marks of ill treatment (including an old leg fracture which hadn't ever been treated)--he was tied to the doorknob of a shelter overnight--she got him back only because he was microchipped and the buyers had never changed the information on the chip. Horrible story but all this stuff happens.

The better breeders don't want stuff like this happening to any of their puppies.

Mind you, I don't think you'd do any of these things but you should know WHY some breeders won't even consider letting some of their puppies go into iffy situations.

As others have said, I am here (Glengate).

A few comments ... First of all, some breeders like myself do not really prefer to sell outside of their geographical area to people that they can't meet. I do have puppies in Georgia, Quebec and Newfoundland. The Georgia people lived in Connecticut at the time of sale, and I drove there to meet / home check them. The Quebec people lived nearby at the time of sale and we met a couple of times prior to placement, both here and there. The Newfoundland woman flew in to meet us, and had wonderful references from others that I know here. It's generally been my bottom line that my puppies don't go places where I can't easily get to them, if required.

I was recently contacted by a breeder in Florida who had sold a dog here, the people no longer wanted it, the owners were refusing to put it on a plane and send it back, the breeder thought rescue here would have a home for him. And that's the big fear -- when people no longer want a dog, they often won't keep their word and pay for a flight. They want it gone and they want it gone now. That's why I like to be close to my puppies (although I like to think I wouldn't sell to someone that wouldn't keep their word like that but geez, you never know.)

When thinking about show potential, I'm the first to say that I'm having some success here in Canada, but I have produced nothing to finish in the US as yet. A couple of my own puppies have been shown there briefly and I've produced a couple that I *think* could do well if I had the money to send them (not to mention the inclination) but the bottom line is we have done next to nothing in the US. If one did want to pursue showing in the US, it would only make sense to buy from someone who has proven success there. We have some great Canadian breeders, but again, if one wants to show in the US they shouldn't just take the breeder's word that they can do well in the US ring - there should be actual indication of that. I'm one of the ones honest enough to say that!

FWIW, I feel the same way about performance. If you want an obedience / rally / agility dog, I hope you'll look for proof of that in what the breeder has previously produced.

Additionally, I think you really need to deal locally because of the girlfriend / wife (sorry, I don't remember which). If she has a fear of Dobermans, she has to meet them and she needs to be on board with this. She needs to meet the ones where you are dealing, and she needs to be feel comfortable with this decision.

tjmom said:

Good for you for doing your research. It could be an exhaustive search but trust me when you finally get that dobie pup home it will be all worth it. I do agree with checking out the local shows if you get a chance and the dobie magazines but weary of the breeders in those magazines that are selling pups and have no champion lines.

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I agree. The dog magazine breeders are usually to be avoided. Not only that - but "champion lines" are misleading. It doesn't stand for reputable breeding program, extensive health testing, CH. titles, show prospects, or even that they are showing their dogs. It doesn't always mean that they have CH.'s in the first place, or show quality Dobermans or prospects. That could mean there is a CH. somewhere back there, very very far back. It could mean one dog is an Int' CH, which is really a very easy CH. title that most Dobes can attain easily, it is not an indication of quality and cannot even be compared with an AKC CH.

IMO "champion lines" doesn't mean much, as ads in the paper even say that nowadays. Many BYB's claim "CH. lines". These BYB's try to make a quick buck off of individuals in the past that actually did title their dogs, or they lie about it, or their word CH. doesn't stand for the same things as CH. does to most in the know dog show people. These BYB's do nothing but breed and claim "CH. lines" as a selling gimmick to unsuspecting buyers.

What you really need to look at are the parents and also the grandparents, their health, and if they are CH's, their longevity, what titles they hold, and so forth. Look at the breeding program as a whole, the reputation of the breeder, the number of litters produced and what those produced are doing and what titles they hold, the amount of health testing on sire and dam, and the generation before, those results, and things of that nature. Pretty much refer to Mary's buying guide.

DobeNovice said:

Thanks again for the info!

I have come across several other breeders since my last posting and one happened to be quite cynical. The breeder was hesitant about my interest in a Dobe because I would be a first time dog owner. Furthermore, the breeder seemed repulsed at my suggestion that I would have the dog obedience trained by a licensed trainer; it was suggested that I train the Dobe myself. Lastly, I was told that owning a male is not for a first time Dobe owner and that I could only adopt a female from this breeder. It was a rather interesting conversation and one that I suppose offered the darker side of breeders experiences. Ultimately, it seemed as though too many Dobes were returned to the breeder by irresponsible owners and thus the breeder was bitter.

On with my obsessive research!

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I don't know if I'd call it cynical as much as realistic. IMO, this *isn't* a breed best suited for the first time dog owner. It's been said this isn't a "starter breed", and I think there's a large element of truth to that. This breed demands owners with well developed training skills and leadership ability. I don't breed anymore, but when I did it was pretty unlikely I would have ever placed a puppy with a stone cold novice to dog ownership. You have to go with the numbers..while the occasional first time owner can succeed with a doberman, they definitely don't represent the majority.

And being honest, having someone else train a dog for you isn't a good idea with ANY breed. Everyone has to earn the respect of their dog on their own..just because your dog might respond to my commands (if I trained it) DOES NOT mean it would respond the same way to you. Quite the contrary, it can cause a lot of problems when the dog is better educated than the owner.

And really, far more important than actually teaching the dog to sit, to down or whatever is the process of learning to communicate with your dog, bonding with your dog, learning leadership skills. Training your own dog provides opportunities that really shouldn't be missed.

Murreydobe said:

I don't know if I'd call it cynical as much as realistic. IMO, this *isn't* a breed best suited for the first time dog owner. It's been said this isn't a "starter breed", and I think there's a large element of truth to that. This breed demands owners with well developed training skills and leadership ability. I don't breed anymore, but when I did it was pretty unlikely I would have ever placed a puppy with a stone cold novice to dog ownership. You have to go with the numbers..while the occasional first time owner can succeed with a doberman, they definitely don't represent the majority.

And being honest, having someone else train a dog for you isn't a good idea with ANY breed. Everyone has to earn the respect of their dog on their own..just because your dog might respond to my commands (if I trained it) DOES NOT mean it would respond the same way to you. Quite the contrary, it can cause a lot of problems when the dog is better educated than the owner.

And really, far more important than actually teaching the dog to sit, to down or whatever is the process of learning to communicate with your dog, bonding with your dog, learning leadership skills. Training your own dog provides opportunities that really shouldn't be missed.

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DobeNovice said:

Thanks again for the info!

I have come across several other breeders since my last posting and one happened to be quite cynical. The breeder was hesitant about my interest in a Dobe because I would be a first time dog owner. Furthermore, the breeder seemed repulsed at my suggestion that I would have the dog obedience trained by a licensed trainer; it was suggested that I train the Dobe myself. Lastly, I was told that owning a male is not for a first time Dobe owner and that I could only adopt a female from this breeder. It was a rather interesting conversation and one that I suppose offered the darker side of breeders experiences. Ultimately, it seemed as though too many Dobes were returned to the breeder by irresponsible owners and thus the breeder was bitter.

On with my obsessive research!

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I am going to agree with the MurreyDobe and the breeder. That breeder sounds like they care for the future of the dog and care about you.

Like has been said before, Dobermans ARE NOT the dog for everyone, esp. busy puppies. They are not easy and require a lot of work, extensive socialization, lots of training, lots of love and attention. They require and demand a lot from their owners at all stages. They stay puppies for a long time and generally have high prey drive and high energy. They are very smart, and many times they can easily manipulate and exhaust owners that don’t know how to deal with such a smart and active breed.

Doberman rescues are full b/c many breeders didn't take the time to talk to them about what living with a Doberman all the time is really like or offer to help them when times got tough. Young males are most likely to be found in rescue for a reason. Doberman males do NOT at all make good first time dog owner dogs statistically speaking. They are generally bigger, more testy, and harder to handle. They are more prone to marking, displaying dominant behaviors, and it isn't at all unusual for Doberman males to become dog aggressive, which is not easy or enjoyable for a novice to handle.

Don't take that as in insult that the breeder was being honest. Why would you say that is the darker side for that the breeder not to just agree with what you want – regardless of your personal experience. Sounds like the breeder has been around Dobes for awhile and is just showing concern and care for the breed. I think you are being overly sensitive here.

About training - it is MUCH more rewarding and important to spend some time and train your own dog. Most of "dog training" is owner training I have found. Paying someone else to train your dog isn't near as effective as going through a good training club and learning how to train your dog yourself in the way that works best for both YOU and your dog. Dog trainers are everywhere, they are a dime a dozen, you need to be smart to understand the differences in their teaching styles and techniques. Giving your dog to a “trainer” can ruin certain Dobermans if it is bad experience.

I have heard horror stories of Dobermans being treated overly harsh when given to a training place for a few weeks because they are “Dobermans”. One summer I worked as a trainer and saw the effects on an oversized Dobe bitch who went to a private trainer who used techniques that were not appropriate for her. There was a lot to un-do from this “trainers” training. So just keep that mind. I know that doesn’t always happen but seeing it in person really made an impact in my mind.

Dobermans can be very sensitive in training. I have one that I only have to use mild voice corrections and the Dobe will respond very well to that as long as it is mild. Rarely any corrections are needing, training that Dobe is easy. My male isn’t phased by corrections much at all; his training requires a different approach. They are all very different. I use lots of toys, treats, and positive training, but corrections are sometimes needed. But I do a ton of off leash work, they are taught to heel off leash in my house inside and outside in the backyard before I expect any real heeling in class (their off leash heeling is always much sharper than on leash b/c of this) (also heeling is much different than just walking nicely loose leash) so I don’t depend on a leash and collar much so the higher levels are easier b/c we have the foundation and teamwork already in place, they want to work and love to work. My goal is teamwork regardless of leash and collar. If you train your own dog, you get to be the boss of what type of techniques are used and get to see the rewards of your own hard work first hand. There is something to be said for a title you get with your dog, all that work, all the hours, all the love and training put into that with you and your dog is significant.

I love training and competing, it is addictive. You mentioned you wanted to do something with your dog like performance, conformation, even SchH. Why wouldn't you want to train the dog yourself? Are you just going to pay someone to have all the fun? Teaching basic commands are VERY easy with Dobermans, most owners can handle that themselves. If you are showing in conformation, you need to train your puppy to at least stand and other commands. If you are doing SchH, you need to train as well in tracking, obedience, and laying the foundation for a successful well adjusted dog. So what is your real goal here with this Doberman you plan to get? Something to think about…

I train my extended families dogs and have found dogs respond one way with "the trainer" and another way with their family unless the family knows what they are doing and how to handle the dog in the way that is best for that dog.

For example, I remember baby sitting a dog in my extended family; the dog got dirty and needed a bath. So I basically put her in the tub (60 lbs) with no leash, no collar (like my own), and gave her a bath. She tried to bolt once but I firmly said no and blocked her and went about the bath like it wasn't a big deal b/c as far as I was concerned, it wasn’t. She was good the whole time and it was a non-issue. Later I found out she has to be tied up for baths and acts up during them for the owners. It is all relative. Now the owners can give the dog a bath by insisting she stay in the tub and making it a non issue. It was all about training them, I am not the one that owns that dog, I don't live with her 24/7, they do, so it is important they know how to handle their dog and learn to train her themselves. Another time I potty trained my sister’s puppy, but within days of going back to the old environment, the puppy reverted.

The training is not effective unless the owner gets in on the training, practices, knows what they are doing, how to reinforce commands, is consistent, and effective. We do live in a society that values convenience and fast everything, but just giving the dog to someone else to train is not always a "quick fix" and short cut to the owner putting in the time to train the dogs themselves. I do have a trained and titled Doberman male who *knows* without a doubt the commands others are telling him, he just doesn’t give a care. This is the type of dog that unless you earn his respect and put in your time with him, he doesn't care what you command him to do. He couldn't care less.

Good luck on your search and keep up the research!

DobeNovice said:

Thanks again for the info!

I have come across several other breeders since my last posting and one happened to be quite cynical. The breeder was hesitant about my interest in a Dobe because I would be a first time dog owner. Furthermore, the breeder seemed repulsed at my suggestion that I would have the dog obedience trained by a licensed trainer; it was suggested that I train the Dobe myself. Lastly, I was told that owning a male is not for a first time Dobe owner and that I could only adopt a female from this breeder. It was a rather interesting conversation and one that I suppose offered the darker side of breeders experiences. Ultimately, it seemed as though too many Dobes were returned to the breeder by irresponsible owners and thus the breeder was bitter.

On with my obsessive research!

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Hi again DobeNovice,

I hope you read Murreydobes last post very carefully because I'm about to make the same sort of points. Also it looks like D&D was writing the same time I was--her points on training are excellent.

I think you found a breeder to talk to who wasn't so much cynical as both experienced and truthful.

Murreydobe said that Dobes are not a starter breed. They definitely aren't. Which isn't to say that a lot of people don't get Dobes as their first time dog but across the board it probably isn't the best idea for either the dog or the prospective owner. At very least I'd hope that the first time Dobe owner had experience with dogs in the household when they grew up.

And as far as having a dog trained rather than training a dog yourself. Everything that Murreydobe said about why you should set out to train the dog yourself rather than have a trainer do it for you is absolutely true. It's kind of like that old saying about catching a fish for a hungry person will feed them for a meal--teaching them how to catch a fish will feed them forever.

You talked about having a "licensed" trainer do the training and I've got a question about that. Who exactly is the licensing body for a dog trainer? None of the states I've ever lived in license trainers. The American Pet Dog Trainers Association provides a certificate I think--but you can get one by taking a 100 question multiple choice type of test. I've stood and watched those trainers run classes for PetCo/PetSmart (who make a big deal out of the fact that they use APDT for their classes) and many of them are not very skilled and have no idea how to go about problem solving. Some have never actually trained a dog for anything more than household obedience.

The bottom line is that you'd be WAAAAY better off learning how to train your own dog.

The question about having a male versus a bitch has come up on these forums a number of times. Even though I think that across the board males are sweeter, more even tempered Dobes than bitches, who frankly, can be just that....bitches I think for most first time Dobe owners a male isn't necessarily the dog to get. Adolescent males, neutered or not, can have enough issues that have to do with who will have the upper hand that a bitch is perhaps a better choice for a first time Doberman.

Frankly not all people should EVER have Dobes....a lot of Dobes end up going back to breeders because the "owners" can't seem to get a handle on how to deal with them. Even more Dobes end up in rescue--and if you talk to some of the rescue people one of the age groups that show up in great abundance are males in the 12 to 24 month range--usually because they are high energy, untrained and distructive.

Of course in the case of the particular breeder--she had a role too in getting those dogs back. The better breeders screen their prospective puppy owners very carefully. Sounds like the one you talked to has learned that in a painful way.

Anyway--keep looking. After saying everything I've said here--I got very lucky with my first Dobe--while my family had dogs from the time I was in my early teens so I knew something about dogs, no one had ever had a Doberman (that's not even quite true--my stepdad had one but he was long long before he met my mother and I met him). The breeder of the litter and I had an opportunity to laugh about it later but he always said that if he had actually been selling the males in the litter (he wasn't--he'd leased the bitch and part of the lease fee was that the owner got all of the males to sell) he'd have never sold me the dog I got who was at least the pick male in the litter and perhaps the pick puppy as well as a highly dominant dog who was not a good choice for a 20 year old first time Doberman owner.

It subsequently turned out that I'm far more dominant than any Doberman that has ever walked the face of the earth and while males and I get along just fine I probably never should have on a full time basis any sort of a bitch. I haven't owned one since the middle 60's. I love the bitches that belong to friends and I dog sit for several but it's a little like being a grandmother--I can send 'em home after a few days.

Keep looking, you'll find the right Dobe and the right breeder for you eventually.

I agree with your statements regarding training. I believe it is important to train with the pup, by attending classes that trainer both pup and owner.

If the Dobe is not for the first time dog owner, as you say, then I will do my best to find out before adoption. Perhaps my exhaustive search will leave me unsettled about adopting one, but I hope that is not the case.

I am very intrigued that several individuals who have bred the Doberman have warned me against adopting a pup. It appears that your belief in part supports the stigma associated with the breed. If you believe that someone who is caring and willing to learn, but has never owned a dog before, is not meant for this breed then there is an issue somewhere. Considering that any lay person can acquire a Doberman, or any similar breed, this presents a problem--one that legislative bodies are trying to "fix", e.g. BSL. I don't agree with it, nor do I believe in it. However, I do understand that -if- your belief is correct then the public and the breeds should be protected from irresponsible and novice owners; how this should be done is beyond me. I know in all likelihood you did not intend to come across this way; I am just sharing my perception

I still love my buddy's two Dobes. I believe they are the sweetest and most loving dogs I have ever met. I've been threatened by the "softer" breeds before but never by the Dobe. Nevertheless, I know that the Dobes I have come across may be special cases. Nevertheless, I will do my best to educate myself before I choose whether to adopt one or not.

I appreciate everyone's insight, as always.