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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I was recently notified of a red dobe male in a local shelter. Haven't seen him yet. Apparently very skinny and very confused. The shelter director referred to him as "goofy" and I couldn't help but think that the term is synomous with the color RED. Came from animal control, and recently neutered. He is 3 years old and not doing well in the shelter scenario. SO, I am going to meet him Tuesday and more than likely bring him home as a foster. Any suggestions would be helpful. Even though he is through a shelter, they have given me the authority for placement. Have such mixed emotions, somehow I think I may very well be a foster failure but at the same time realizing that he needs a home of his own. But that remains to be seen. ATTY is doing very well, has put on good weight, coat is shiny and has become so spoiled he demands to sleep under the comforter. A very deserving boy. My question is? Since the new boy was recently neutered and Atty has been for some time, should I anticipate problems? with 2 males? Atty has definitely accepted training and is very calm and not invasive to other dogs space. I am not an advocate of separation in crates and prefer to have the dogs together. Any suggestions would certainly be appreciated. Thanks!!!
 

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Male on male aggression is ridiculously common in this bread. There are probably a million threads on DT about the topic. If you take this dog as a foster, you will need to crate and rotate. That means they are never out at the same time. Neutering does not make a difference in this trait.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Male on male aggression is ridiculously common in this bread. There are probably a million threads on DT about the topic. If you take this dog as a foster, you will need to crate and rotate. That means they are never out at the same time. Neutering does not make a difference in this trait.
Thank you. I know I have heard of this being a common issue. But I currently have 2 males (for several years) and have not had the need to separate. They sleep together and even play together. And I have honestly NOT had any problems. One will lay on the couch with other literally laying on top him. Both are trained and respect each other as well as me My concern is simply, adding a 3rd unknown male.
 

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The problem is, everything can be fine with two males until the day it isn't. We've seen so many stories that start the same as yours..."they sleep together and play together" and then, bam! One day it's on, and from then on they are trying to kill one another. I hope you never experience that, but the odds are not in your favor. I sincerely hope you are not ever leaving them alone unsupervised.

Adding a third dog of any gender really changes the dynamics. If you decide to foster this boy, I would keep him entirely separate. Why take the risk?
 

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Heat Seeking Missile
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Having two males is asking for issues, adding a third male is guaranteeing an issue. It doesn't matter how well trained your boys are, male on male aggression is a breed trait. I would seriously reconsider fostering this boy and maybe finding him another forever home, especially as you mentioned you are not advocate for crating.

Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
The problem is, everything can be fine with two males until the day it isn't. We've seen so many stories that start the same as yours..."they sleep together and play together" and then, bam! One day it's on, and from then on they are trying to kill one another. I hope you never experience that, but the odds are not in your favor. I sincerely hope you are not ever leaving them alone unsupervised.

Adding a third dog of any gender really changes the dynamics. If you decide to foster this boy, I would keep him entirely separate. Why take the risk?
Definitely understand your train of thought and have read numerous thread to this, BUT is it possible that each dog is an indivdual as their humane counterpart. That the training, schooling and socialization of that animal may very well be condusive to their ultimate behavior? Is it also possible that the apprehension involved by owneres with multiple males could very well be instilled into the dogs.? Could the separation of males also cause hostility? Please, understand that I am not attempting to enter into a controversy but it appears to me that if dog on dog, male on male agression is a true reality, then why the harmony in dog parks? I am not suggesting unaltered, but merely altered. I have read that the testorone level on a mature dog take up to 6 month to succumb/ Is this also true? Is this same scenario also applicable to mutliple bitches?
 

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Definitely understand your train of thought and have read numerous thread to this, BUT is it possible that each dog is an indivdual as their humane counterpart. That the training, schooling and socialization of that animal may very well be condusive to their ultimate behavior? Is it also possible that the apprehension involved by owneres with multiple males could very well be instilled into the dogs.? Could the separation of males also cause hostility? Please, understand that I am not attempting to enter into a controversy but it appears to me that if dog on dog, male on male agression is a true reality, then why the harmony in dog parks? I am not suggesting unaltered, but merely altered. I have read that the testorone level on a mature dog take up to 6 month to succumb/ Is this also true?
We're talking about male/male aggression in the Doberman breed in particular, so seeing dogs of other breeds in dog parks is not terribly relevant. Some breeders are naturally more accepting of other dogs, particularly those breeds that are bred to work together.

I do not believe that training and socialization can remove this trait, as it's part of an inherited, genetic temperament. Yes, they have some effect, but you cannot overcome an inherent tendency towards aggression. There are many, many people here on DT that have been in the breed for decades, put tons of titles on their dogs, and still have males that are aggressive towards other males. Does that mean their dogs can't behave in public, on a leash, when another male is present? No. But it certainly means they cannot play off-leash or live with another male.

This is not something you can train out of your dog, nor is it something you can "cause" by being anxious or worried.
 

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Heat Seeking Missile
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Definitely understand your train of thought and have read numerous thread to this, BUT is it possible that each dog is an indivdual as their humane counterpart. That the training, schooling and socialization of that animal may very well be condusive to their ultimate behavior? Is it also possible that the apprehension involved by owneres with multiple males could very well be instilled into the dogs.? Could the separation of males also cause hostility? Please, understand that I am not attempting to enter into a controversy but it appears to me that if dog on dog, male on male agression is a true reality, then why the harmony in dog parks? I am not suggesting unaltered, but merely altered. I have read that the testorone level on a mature dog take up to 6 month to succumb/ Is this also true? Is this same scenario also applicable to mutliple bitches?
There are several responsible, knowledgeable owners here that have well behaved males, do everything right and would still be faced with the same ending if introducing a 2nd male. Male on male aggression is a trait of this breed. What makes you think that your outcome would be any different?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
There are several responsible, knowledgeable owners here that have well behaved males, do everything right and would still be faced with the same ending if introducing a 2nd male. Male on male aggression is a trait of this breed. What makes you think that you would be any different?
Thank you so much for your input and I will certainly take all that has been said into consideration! But I have been to dog parks that have had multiple MALE dobermans as well as the intervention of a female (all altered) There have been no issues that were evident at the time, however, I have to say that I am not a fan of dog parks. Again Thank you!
 

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Heat Seeking Missile
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Thank you so much for your input and I will certainly take all that has been said into consideration! But I have been to dog parks that have had multiple MALE dobermans as well as the intervention of a female (all altered) There have been no issues that were evident at the time, however, I have to say that I am not a fan of dog parks. Again Thank you!
Well, in the end it's your decision, I don't know why your asking for suggestions when your are being given facts about male on male aggression, and because it's the answer you don't want to hear you ignore it. You cannot ignore how many threads there are on DT regarding male on male aggression. What goes on at a dog park is completely different as to what goes on in a house and backyard in closed quarters.

Hope we don't see a post from you looking for help or sympathy when something goes wrong, and I hope it doesn't, but probably will, because I seriously think members will say "told you so."

Good luck.
 

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I applaud your decision to foster this boy, but I cannot help but feel you will have the same problem I have. My male Dobe is great with one of my male Terriers, but with the other it is armagedon with fur on.
I do however hope it works out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Well, in the end it's your decision. You cannot ignore how many threads there are on regarding male on male aggression. What goes on at a dog park is completely different as to what goes on in a house and backyard in closed quarters.

Hope we don't see a post from you looking for help or sympathy when something goes wrong, and I hope it doesn't, but probably will, because I seriously think members will say "told you so"

Good luck.
Again thank you for you input, however, I feel it is very unlikely that I will come here asking for sympathy and certainly not to hear " I told you so" as I do not hopefully anticipate this being an issue. I do believe there is an exception to every rule, and every dog as every person is an indivdual and therefore performs differently and perhaps even requires differnet guidance. I do feel confident in my ability but perhaps had hoped that there would be some new input which I hadn't have given consideration too. Thank you and I appreciate your good luck wishes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
I applaud your decision to foster this boy, but I cannot help but feel you will have the same problem I have. My male Dobe is great with one of my male Terriers, but with the other it is armagedon with fur on.
I do however hope it works out.
Thank you for the vote of confidence. I am not entirely new to the breed but am always eager to learn new things, opinions do matter to me, but they are opinions and should be treated as such. I will bring both my boys to the shelter! I will observe his interaaction with the dogs that he has next too, as well as mine. Alot can be said about the walk down the aisle out of the shelter. I would never put my dogs in danger and certainly not this poor soul. Although I do have boys I do not leave them unattended or left to their own devices when not home. They are supervised. Again Thank you!
 

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Well. Maybe YOUR males will be okay, but what about this new dog? If he decides so go on a killing rampage?

I habe no exprience with male/male aggression -just have heard horror stories.

Curious to see how things turn out.
 

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Just remember the third dog can and will change the dynamics. Since the dog is from the shelter and you have no history, remember that he may be more subdued the first few weeks and you won't see his true behavior until maybe a month in.
I think you are one of the rare ones to have 2 males that get along and are taking a huge chance with a third. The mistake is that often the owner likes to think it is his ability and he can do it again. Keep us posted...if it is successful, we would like to hear about it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Well. Maybe YOUR males will be okay, but what about this new dog? If he decides so go on a killing rampage?

I habe no exprience with male/male aggression -just have heard horror stories.

Curious to see how things turn out.
Thank you and that is my primary concern. As I had mentioned alot can be seen in a shelter, since there are so many other dogs of different breeds. Be assured I would never consider bring home any dog that I would deem initially detrimental to the welfare of my own dogs and certainly not to the new dog. . Yes, my boys are wonderful and YES, I do trust then explicitly. They go everywhere with me in the confines of the backseat of a car. I take them as a pair to the flea market and parks, etc. They heel admirably and sit as required. Both have their CGCs. Have they growled at each other? certainly! , but that is my position to let them know in NO uncertain terms that it is unacceptable behavior and will be treated as such. They are well behaved and the question "IF" is certainly applicable to any any scenario.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
Just remember the third dog can and will change the dynamics. Since the dog is from the shelter and you have no history, remember that he may be more subdued the first few weeks and you won't see his true behavior until maybe a month in.
I think you are one of the rare ones to have 2 males that get along and are taking a huge chance with a third. The mistake is that often the owner likes to think it is his ability and he can do it again. Keep us posted...if it is successful, we would like to hear about it.
Agian. thank you and I have given that a great deal of thought. You are absolutely correct in the changing of the dynamics of the home. I am hoping to put some weight on him, do a little basic training, hopefully putting a CGC certification on him prior to placement j He will however have to become a contributing memeber to the family. Whereas my boys sleep in bed under the covers, perhgaps thtat will not be a priviledge that he will enjoy. Since he is a RESCUE and hopefully will be placed it is imperative to me to makes sure that he is placed in a knowledgeable and educated home. I want to make sure that he has everything he can have going for him before placement. And agian your assistance and opinions are valued and appreciated.
 

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Since you plan on placing him, be sure he doesn't get a bite history. It will defeat your purpose.

I think something you might want to be careful about is if he is overwhelmed and not comfortable with 2 other males, he may well bite and if it is bad, he won't be able to be adopted out. And you never know...if you had no other dogs or male dogs and took him in and he was just fine, then he could easily be adopted out. So be aware...it can happen in a split second.

Sounds like the two males you have are wonderful.
 

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These 2 were happy buds at one time as well.

There are a lot wiser people on this board than I am but I will give you my experiences. If you search Wheeler you'll see photos to back up the relationship between Wheeler and Walker. They were absolutely the best buds ever. They would share their toys, went swimming together, slept in the same rocker, one on top of the other. They were always touching each other. I can send you tons of shots of them playing and racing and having the best of fun.

Walker was about 1 1/2 when I bought Wheeler. Wheeler was taller than Walker but Walker was the alpha dog. Wheeler was Mr. Happy Go Lucky. By age 3ish and 1 1/2ish I thought I could see a problem creeping in -- just once in a while. They still loved each other. I thought for sure I had control of them except twice. The first time it was maybe over a frog, who knows. I was not there but you know, it would not have made any difference. When they turn on each other it's immediate and horrific. Walker although the alpha took the brunt of the injuries. I remember he had something like 70 stitches up his leg and on his chest. Wheeler didn't have to have any stitches. Of course I separated them in crates and they wouldn't even look at each other for days. The second time was about 4 years later. Mr. Goof Ball Wheeler went flying off a retaining wall and accidentally brushed Walker. The fight was on. I was maybe 100' from them and it would not have made a difference had I been 10 feet away. They tore each other's throats open and the top of Walker's head was cut from ear to ear.

Watching that almost gave me a heart attack. I couldn't scream loud enough to stop them. Luckily a worker was here and he took Wheeler's hind legs and I took Walker's hind legs and pulled them apart. (I believe that is the safest way to separate them. I have heard fireworks work but I don't know.)

After that, for about 3 years, they never went out together unless my son and I were both with them. Wheeler also became alpha and Walker more or less bowed to Wheeler--first out the door, etc.

I know others on this site have successfully kept males together. Elly and her husband are successful at it. I wasn't. My boys never met a stranger and loved other dogs. But twice over something so very minor, the fight was on.

So not for the world would I put my own Doberman male with another Doberman male. I just won't run the risk again.

I don't like guilt feelings but my dogs look to me to feed them, give them shots, etc. I believe it's my responsibility to do my best to keep them out of harm's way as much as I can.

You have a tough decision. Good luck.



 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Since you plan on placing him, be sure he doesn't get a bite history. It will defeat your purpose.

I think something you might want to be careful about is if he is overwhelmed and not comfortable with 2 other males, he may well bite and if it is bad, he won't be able to be adopted out. And you never know...if you had no other dogs or male dogs and took him in and he was just fine, then he could easily be adopted out. So be aware...it can happen in a split second.

Sounds like the two males you have are wonderful.
Thank you and I will certainly keep this in mind. I know that it takes a good month to see the REAL dog, and his personality It certainly did with the senior male I adopted, and as time progressed he just became far more wonderful that I would have imagined, He sleeps with my other boy, they pplay tug of war with toys (and I will admit that does not please me) but a simple No seems to do the trick and each will get their own toy .and un assumingly drop it in my lap. I will let anyone interested know IF I do bring this other boy home. I realize that there are going to be trial and tribulations but I firmly believe any dog is worth that effort!
 
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