American vs. euro
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there are already several threads about this topic - if you do a search, you should find them. It is a very touchy subject for a lot of us.
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Don't be sorry! It is a valid question and one that gets asked about a lot. I just want to point out that it is a much discussed topic - especially by newcomers to the breed. You can search and read up on the subject some - if you have more questions, you can ask them with more background.
I don't want to discourage anyone from asking questions - it is how we learn!
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Darn it, I would like to see this topic discussed. Could someone tell me where to find these threads? I'm still new to this forum stuff I have no idea where to look. I don't see why it can not be discussed again. And there should be no need for anyone feeling touchy. We all win as we pick the best breed in the world. Does it matter which side of the world?
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I agree its a shame it can`t be discussed but it is a hot subject. Maybe someday. I have searched on my own and know all I need to know. It just comes down to two different (strong opinons). 12-15 years ago you wouldn`t even know there was such a division. Internet educates us all. Google, search and you will find.
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If it were only that simple! There are a lot of strong opinions and more than a bit of intolerance on both sides of the issue. A lot of generalizations are made, frequently by people who don't have enough knowledge and experience to make them...this almost inevitably leads to insulting comments getting thrown around and people losing their tempers. In the end, these "discussions" wind up widening the chasm, polarizing people more than they might already be.
While the subject might be new to some of you, for many of us it's been done to death. It's just gotten boring.
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For years I have shown and bred horses. Several breeds but the last was American Quarter Horse. In fact I had a two year old mare that placed 8th in the 2yr old western snaffle bit futurity (out of over 350). I know that it takes a while to "break into" a show ring. I myself chose to hire two professional trainers/handlers. They have the expertise and the name.
With Quarter Horses, you either have a performance horse or a halter horse. Very seldom do you have a horse that does both. I just thought that it would be similar to American vs Euro. They each have their specialty?
Seems as though American bred dobes are bred more for a refined show look, and the Euro's I have seen are bred more for size for schutzhund. Not that Euro's and Americans don't cross that line, I'm sure they do.
Either way I think it is a personal preference. I can appreciate the beauty and characteristics of both liniage. In my experience in researching the breed, it seems as though the Euro's are a larger dog.
My one concern as a breeder (of horses) is sometimes breeders try to get certain physical characteristics out of an animal at the expense of what is healthy. For example, breeders started to want the small pretty head when breeding quarter horses. So this was a desirable trait. But suddenly the breed began to get problems with teeth. The heads where too small. So the backyard breeders my be replicating traits that are not desirable for the look of the dog. It is so important to breed good animals.
At any rate, I don't what to insult anyones preference. I have spent the last 6 weeks with my pup and I am head over heels for this breed. I want to go to some shows just to get a feel for it. In fact the annual dobe show is supposed to be in Fitchburg MA this year, right next door to me. I am so thrilled about this! This board has been so informative. You all have so much to offer us newbies. Thanks again for all the replies!
Lisa
With Quarter Horses, you either have a performance horse or a halter horse. Very seldom do you have a horse that does both. I just thought that it would be similar to American vs Euro. They each have their specialty?
Seems as though American bred dobes are bred more for a refined show look, and the Euro's I have seen are bred more for size for schutzhund. Not that Euro's and Americans don't cross that line, I'm sure they do.
Either way I think it is a personal preference. I can appreciate the beauty and characteristics of both liniage. In my experience in researching the breed, it seems as though the Euro's are a larger dog.
My one concern as a breeder (of horses) is sometimes breeders try to get certain physical characteristics out of an animal at the expense of what is healthy. For example, breeders started to want the small pretty head when breeding quarter horses. So this was a desirable trait. But suddenly the breed began to get problems with teeth. The heads where too small. So the backyard breeders my be replicating traits that are not desirable for the look of the dog. It is so important to breed good animals.
At any rate, I don't what to insult anyones preference. I have spent the last 6 weeks with my pup and I am head over heels for this breed. I want to go to some shows just to get a feel for it. In fact the annual dobe show is supposed to be in Fitchburg MA this year, right next door to me. I am so thrilled about this! This board has been so informative. You all have so much to offer us newbies. Thanks again for all the replies!
Lisa
It can be discussed, of course--but like several other people on this list I find it boring--since it inevitably seems to end up polarizing the groups on either side of the issue. This board has several lengthy discussions and you can search for those and read up on them and you'll see how the discussions get heated even though it shouldn't end up that way.
You can also find discussions about the differences (and occasionally about the similarities between Euro and North American Dobes on almost every other board and list that is related to Dobermans.
I have to disagree with you though alwayshadpets about the fact that the division of opinions is new. In my experience it's been going on as long as I've been showing Dobes and that's been since 1960.
The other thing I want to point out is that since the FCI standard for the Doberman was changed about 10 years ago now--it starts being a little like comparing apples and oranges. For most of the time that Dobermans have existed the AKC and "German" (read FCI these days) standards have been virtually identical--they no longer are.
Lisa I hope you can make it to the National which is in Fitchburg this year--I think you'll find it an eye opener.
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Bug said:
<<By the way--the most popular Shutzhund/Ring etc dog presently seems to be the Malenois--these are not big dogs, not heavy dogs and certainly generally are about the size of a Dobe bitch. A dog doesn't need to be bred for size for Schutzhund.****>>
I was going to pose a similiar response. There are many different breeds that can and do excell at schutzhund..ranging from breeds as heavy boned as a rottie to the malinois-which is considerably smaller and lighter boned than a doberman. My undersized malinois bitch put a decoy on the ground more than once. So I don't think it can be said that there's an ideal "size" for schutzhund.
In any event, no matter where they might be, good breeders breed to their standard. In the case of the doberman
, those standards are different. So it does become comparing apples and oranges.
<<By the way--the most popular Shutzhund/Ring etc dog presently seems to be the Malenois--these are not big dogs, not heavy dogs and certainly generally are about the size of a Dobe bitch. A dog doesn't need to be bred for size for Schutzhund.****>>
I was going to pose a similiar response. There are many different breeds that can and do excell at schutzhund..ranging from breeds as heavy boned as a rottie to the malinois-which is considerably smaller and lighter boned than a doberman. My undersized malinois bitch put a decoy on the ground more than once. So I don't think it can be said that there's an ideal "size" for schutzhund.
In any event, no matter where they might be, good breeders breed to their standard. In the case of the doberman
, those standards are different. So it does become comparing apples and oranges.
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Well..we discuss a LOT of stuff over and over again for the benefit of the newbies..ear posting information, housebreaking and other basic training issues being good examples. But those kinds of subjects don't invariably lead to arguments and bad vibes.
LOL, I think the "American vs. Euro" and "the morality of ear cropping/tail docking" subjects are A LOT like discussing politics or religion..your opinions are best kept to yourself, because inevitably someone is going to be insulted when they're opened up for discussion.
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I have been around both American and Euro types, and though diffrent in appearance, are quite similar in personality I think. Eaither way, when I see a nice looking doberman of eaither type it never fails to take my breath away. God bless the Doberman!
I guess ignorance is bliss, because I had no idea that there were even slight differences in the two strains. I figured a Dobe was a Dobe...It will be interesting to see photos of the adult Ziris compared to one of our 'American' Dobergirls to see if there is a marked difference.
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I disagree, if this info (and maybe it was ) around in the 6o`s most people would not have that kind of info (internet was not around) unless you were in the dobie circle and showing you would not know this. In the 60`s I was into horses and in the 70`s having babies. I feel like I am just now catching up with things that interest me. Dobies are one.
I like this statement.
Sheesbuzy (QUOTE)[Either way I think it is a personal preference. I can appreciate the beauty and characteristics of both liniage.
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I just went to the search feature and typed in "Euro Dobermans" - there are a whole bunch of threads. I don't mind of people want to rehash the subject on a regular basis, but I 'd like to see them go back and read previous threads first.
Forgive me for adding my comments on what is clearly a well discussed topic, imho, it appears to be one of mere cultural differences? THe US dobes are stunningly elegant, and appear more athletic , the 'Euro' dobes appear more solid in build, sometimes blurring the line between dobes and their stocker rottie cousins, however it is purely one of aesthetics and differences in taste.
Just my opinion, both types have their attractions but in essence the are still dobes.
Just my opinion, both types have their attractions but in essence the are still dobes.
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I think I see this the way you do. I do like to see discussion though. Maybe the upcoming generation will work it out as the present one does not seem to be able to do it.
Just like wars maybe we wouldn`t have them if differences were discussed instead of shooting everyone. Oh! Oh! now I did it, I put politics in it.
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