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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Since there was mention made on another thread about "surgically altering" dogs, I thought I would pass along some information on the subject as the previous poster gave completely false information. Katoba was alluding to the fact that it is illegal to recrop an already cropped Doberman. I assure you it is not.

The AKC rules with regards to surgical alterations are intended to prevent the exhibition of dogs changed with intent of hiding a possible inherited fault, one that would normally cause disqualification or severe penalization in the show ring. Examples of such would be missing or misaligned teeth, unacceptable markings, missing testicles, etc. Certain procedures would mask traits that could be passed on, and this is what the rules are designed to prevent. The recropping or redocking of an already cropped or docked dog simple does not apply here. I have personally verified this information correct with the AKC. They consider a recrop still a cropping, a redock still a docking, which is acceptable according to the rules, (as long as stated acceptable in your breed standard) no matter how many times you do it.

Many breeds besides Dobermans are cropped and/or docked and/or have dew claws removed. These are all considered acceptable alterations and the AKC recognizes as such in its rules and regulations. For example the AKC rules state:

A dog which is blind, deaf castrated, spayed or which has been altered by artificial means except as specified in the standard of its breed or a male which does not have two normal testicles normally located in the scrotum may not compete at any show and will be disqualified except that a castrated male may be entered as Stud Dog in the Stud Dog Class and a spayed bitch may be entered as Brood Bitch in the Brood Bitch class. A dog will not be considered to have been changed by artificial means because of removal of dewclaws or docking of tail if it is of a breed in which such removal or docking is a regularly approved practice which is not contrary to the standard.

A dog is considered changed in appearance by artificial means if it has been subjected any type of procedure that has the effect of obscuring, disguising or eliminating a congenital or hereditary abnormality or any undesirable characteristic, or that does anything to improve a dogs natural appearance, temperament, bite or gait.

Examples are:

1)The correction of entropion, ectropion, trichaisis or distichiasis
2)Trimming removal or tattooing of the third eyelid. (nictitating membrane)
3)The insertion of an eye prosthesis.
4)Correction of harelip, cleft palate, stenotic nares, or an elongated soft palate resection.
5)Any procedure to change ear set or carriage other than permitted by the breed standard.
6)Restorative dental procedures, the use of bands or braces on the teeth ro any alteration of the dental arcade.
7)The removal of excess skin folds, or the removal of skin patched to alter markings.
8)Correction of inguinal, scrotal or perineal hernias.
9)Surgery for hip dysplasia, O.C.D., patellar luxation and femoral head resection.
10)Alteration of the location of the testes or the insertion of an artificial testicle.
11)Altering the set or carriage of the tail.

Many times at cropping time ears are done too long or wind up miss shaped for whatever reason, and a recrop is warrented. Same for tails. Many times tails are done too long at three days old and need to be redone when the puppy is older. None of these procedures according to the rules is "illegal".

As a side note, and as a responsible breeder I am concerned when a person who is uninformed individual with personal agendas is diseminating false and misleading information. I hope this helps to clear up any questions.

Regards to all

Elaine Hopper
Starlaine Dobermans & Whippets
www.starlaine.com
 

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Somehow I missed those pages.
I guess I missed them too, but I'm glad Elaine picked up on it and provided the correct information. She's absolutely right-there's nothing "illegal" per the AKC about re-cropping or re-docking.

The idea that re-cropping would be against AKC rules doesn't even pass the common sense test.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I guess I missed them too, but I'm glad Elaine picked up on it and provided the correct information. She's absolutely right-there's nothing "illegal" per the AKC about re-cropping or re-docking.

The idea that re-cropping would be against AKC rules doesn't even pass the common sense test.
Those pages were actually removed from the server by the administrators for their content.

Elaine
 

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AKC regulations; surgical alterations; elective cosmetic surgeries...

Since there was mention made on another thread about "surgically altering" dogs, I thought I would pass along some information on the subject as the previous poster gave completely false information. Katoba was alluding to the fact that it is illegal to recrop an already cropped Doberman. I assure you it is not.

The AKC rules with regards to surgical alterations are intended to prevent the exhibition of dogs changed with intent of hiding a possible inherited fault, one that would normally cause disqualification or severe penalization in the show ring. Examples of such would be missing or misaligned teeth, unacceptable markings, missing testicles, etc. Certain procedures would mask traits that could be passed on, and this is what the rules are designed to prevent. The recropping or redocking of an already cropped or docked dog simple does not apply here. I have personally verified this information correct with the AKC. They consider a recrop still a cropping, a redock still a docking, which is acceptable according to the rules, (as long as stated acceptable in your breed standard) no matter how many times you do it.

Many breeds besides Dobermans are cropped and/or docked and/or have dew claws removed. These are all considered acceptable alterations and the AKC recognizes as such in its rules and regulations. For example the AKC rules state:

A dog which is blind, deaf castrated, spayed or which has been altered by artificial means except as specified in the standard of its breed or a male which does not have two normal testicles normally located in the scrotum may not compete at any show and will be disqualified except that a castrated male may be entered as Stud Dog in the Stud Dog Class and a spayed bitch may be entered as Brood Bitch in the Brood Bitch class. A dog will not be considered to have been changed by artificial means because of removal of dewclaws or docking of tail if it is of a breed in which such removal or docking is a regularly approved practice which is not contrary to the standard.

A dog is considered changed in appearance by artificial means if it has been subjected any type of procedure that has the effect of obscuring, disguising or eliminating a congenital or hereditary abnormality or any undesirable characteristic, or that does anything to improve a dogs natural appearance, temperament, bite or gait.

Examples are:

1)The correction of entropion, ectropion, trichaisis or distichiasis
2)Trimming removal or tattooing of the third eyelid. (nictitating membrane)
3)The insertion of an eye prosthesis.
4)Correction of harelip, cleft palate, stenotic nares, or an elongated soft palate resection.
5)Any procedure to change ear set or carriage other than permitted by the breed standard.
6)Restorative dental procedures, the use of bands or braces on the teeth ro any alteration of the dental arcade.
7)The removal of excess skin folds, or the removal of skin patched to alter markings.
8)Correction of inguinal, scrotal or perineal hernias.
9)Surgery for hip dysplasia, O.C.D., patellar luxation and femoral head resection.
10)Alteration of the location of the testes or the insertion of an artificial testicle.
11)Altering the set or carriage of the tail.

Many times at cropping time ears are done too long or wind up miss shaped for whatever reason, and a recrop is warrented. Same for tails. Many times tails are done too long at three days old and need to be redone when the puppy is older. None of these procedures according to the rules is "illegal".

As a side note, and as a responsible breeder I am concerned when a person who is uninformed individual with personal agendas is diseminating false and misleading information. I hope this helps to clear up any questions.

Regards to all

Elaine Hopper
Starlaine Dobermans & Whippets
www.starlaine.com
AKC's Director of Compliance, Mr. Jack Norton and I have discussed the repeated violations of AKC Rules of Dog Shows to great extent, which finds us having to face the fact that far too many are attempting to justify violating the rules. In a time when the anit-docking and anti-cropping threats are staring us in the face, I would hopw we would ALL want to follow as closel to what IS allowed and what IS best for the animal as possible. Our breed, per our standard, is allowed to CROP and DOCK our dogs. ONLY IF one chooses to challenge and further surgeries, will it be further investigated and found to have or not to have violated the rules of dog shows. Not to mention the MANY who find cropping and docking to be something less that admirable will be in full support of public scrutiny of those who choose to participated in additional elective or reparative cosmetic surgeries which are not supported by the standard or the Rules of AKC dog shows. THat said, Cropping is a surgery allowed. If it is done incorectly or not to hte satisfaction of the dog owner or handler, some re-crop in order to correct the carriage of the ear. As Starlainek9 lists above (from the AKC rules) this is NOT acceptable and is a serious violation of rule. Further, "Docking" is allowed through our standard. Any reparative surgery would be found to have given support to a violation of rule to change the appearance of the dog; additionally, at a certain time or age, "re-docking", as it is called to seem more appropriate, is medically termed "amputation". I do not see where amputation is allowed for in our standard. I cannot find ANYWHERE is our standard states we can crop and crop again - or that we can dock and dock again. It is clear to me that is says we can "crop"I find it clear that our Standard allows for "Cropping" and "Docking" and nothing more - not reparative elective surgeries, resetting of ears, amputations, stringing of ears, pinning or trimming, reducing or reshaping an already cropped ear, etc. With these issues now having been presented to the AKC in more than one case, it will be for the Board of Compliance to weed through the rule breakers - or not. There will always be those who have been successful who are in fear of finding themselves loosing their success after violating a rule ... then there are those who can get themselves out of anything. THere are MANY things that are considered against the rules - even giving medications to a dog that can/may alter or temporarily alter the appearance of your dog EVEN WHEN considered medically necessary - specifically stated in the Rules applying to dog shows. Consider this for one example: thyroid medication is USUALLY medically necessary - but it can and usually does grow "hair on a rock" (as once told to me) of the dog or bitch who may be lacking. So, all the dogs in the ring who are on thyroid meds could potentially be considered to be 'altered or temporarily altered" for dog shows. Additionally, there are some who give their dogs caffiene based products ringside to highten the 'presentation' of the animal - OR those who give their dogs meds or supplementation to calm the overassertive dog. This is a direct violation ... as is this the fact that some people spray paint areas of the dog or put eyeliner or mascara on the dogs less than perfect areas to again alter the dogs appearance. Furthermore, those involved who are aware of it and turn a blind eye can be found equally guilty and receive sanctions, suspensions, and even banned from AKC and AKC events depending on the outcome of investigations. It is my feeling that those claiming to be or those who ARE "Professionals", have NO excuse in not being aware in my opinion ... AND/OR those who are ingorant to the details of the rules need to know that 'ignorance is not always bliss'. The biggest point is this: "WHEN we know better we should do better". One can challenge the rules or details of the rules, or one can knowingly comply with them. Those who knowingly choose to violate SHOULD be held accountable. Hate the messenger if you want ... but the fact remains that these are the AKC Rules Applying to Dog Shows. Maybe the AKC is providing too much 'gray" area, maybe not. They shows, their rules. Our standard is our standard and the way I read it, it says crop, not crops... and dock not docks.
Interpretation of our standerd to some is gray, as may be the AKC rules. I do not find it to be that way not that I have really studied and been educated by AKC Director of Compliance, Jack Norton.
Starlainek9 editted/excluded the majority of the Rules Applying to Dog Shows, so I am encouraging EVERYONE to read it as it is made available on their website specifically at: http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/RREGS3.pdf. For information on the issues discussed here, I direct you more specifically Chapter 11 Section 8.
Kathy Babbitt
 

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plenty of puppies have a docking issue fixed when they are put under for cropping. It can be as simple as reparing some scar tissue or re-docking a too long tail. I don't think that the AKC would consider that a problem.

I also know of dogs that have ears fixed that were a poor crop or just too long to stand. I know that artifical methods like stringing are illegal, but re-cropping a poor crop is not "altering" the ear set..... kind of hard to do that IMHO. I also see dogs in the show ring with ears that don't stand well (curly tips usually)- the handler will usually "help" them when stacking the dog so that the judge can see how they would look if they were standing correctly. This is normally just in the puppy classes, but not always that I have seen. If the dog is a good correct Doberman, a non-cooperative ear is not going to keep it out of the ribbons.......... just may take a little longer. That said, if re-cropping the ear a little shorter will help them to stand, then I don't see a problem with that. Cropped ears are artificial and allowed in our standard.

I think basically, you are beating a dead horse here by microscopically looking at details and interpretations that were not meant to be read that way.
 

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I'm sorry all, and I appreciate what a serious topic this is, but the thought of Java in braces gives me the giggles....Reminds me of an earlier episode of 'Nip/Tuck' where a show dog (Shar Pei?) was brought in to have some work done.
 

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I'm sorry all, and I appreciate what a serious topic this is, but the thought of Java in braces gives me the giggles....Reminds me of an earlier episode of 'Nip/Tuck' where a show dog (Shar Pei?) was brought in to have some work done.
I understand the giggles with some of this stuff - it can get absurd really. I will say that the fixing of bite on some of the smooch faced breeds and toys can be a real problem, and can the breaking of tails to get the correct tail set.

In Dobermans, the docking and cropping that we do are already artifical and allowed per our standard......... it can be pretty amazing what is done that is not allowed.

I've watched the preparation of a westie for the ring where they work in a TON of chalk to make the coat full. I know that technically it is not allowed, but it seems that everyone does it in the open. Hairspay on poodles along with extensions................ In Dobermans, pretty much what you see is what you get..... at least in most cases. The one thing we cannot disguise is the actual conformation - a handler can do a lot to minimize a problem, but a good judge can see it.
 

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My question is this......I guess you can show a dog who does not have health testing? and if so, if that dog has hypothyroidism and is taking a thyroid replacement drug, aren't you replacing a missing hormone? versus your dog ingesting something that is not natural to the body such as caffeine? I would think altering the dog in the ring would be giving a normal thyroid dog, thyroid meds. Grooming and clipping is one issue, adding chalk and hairspray is another.
 

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Those pages were actually removed from the server by the administrators for their content.

Elaine
Ah, that explains it.

Although I'm gonna be honest, I can make it about two sentences into Katoba's posts, then I move on. There's a little thing called "paragraphs". The concept exists for a reason. People should use 'em!
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Kathy

If you care to have a reasonable comversation on this subject then I welcome the dialog. Differing opinions are a good thing however I do not understand why you continue to find the need to acuse others of wrongdoing to bolster your own opinions and actions. You are finding your "proof" on this subject by picking at minutiae that in no way proves your point.

To quote Jack Norton as your source of informaion is leaving readers to believe you have verifyable information, when the reality is your conversations with Mr. Norton center around an investigation launched against you (currently unresolved) for showing a dog permanently altered (testicle alteration).

My post was issued a a new thread simply as an answer your post of incorrect information inferring wrongdoing with regard to recropping/redocking. I have contacted the AKC as have several other concerned breeders and have verified, as have they, that my interpretation is indeed correct.

Having said that, if you still feel that recropping and redocking or "amputation" as you put it are illegal in the eyes of the AKC, then I will certainly assume that your dog, Electron's Stray Cat Strut aka "Rock" will no longer be appearing in any AKC show catalogs as an entry since you had his tail "reamputated" to remove scarring.

If you want to continue this conversation in a reasonable manner feel free.

Elaine Hopper
Starlaine Dobermans & Whippets
 
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