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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Im sure this would have been discussed before, but I cant find it from searching!

Could someone please explain the US point system for titles please? (or point me to a 'Points system for dummies' link! :D) I've looked at one on the AKC website, but I didnt quite understand it. It mentioned about different amounts of points depending on how many dogs are in the class? And it didnt say the minimum number of dogs in the class? What is the minimum age a dog can start collecting points for a championship? Do 2nd places get any points or not?

So far Rupert has won x1 BPIB and 1st Junior (beating 6 other Junior dogs) and then came 3rd in group at an open show and x1 1st AV working, then working group 1 but only 3 dogs entered at limit show, then he's had x2 first places where there was only one other dog entered. He's had plenty of 2nd and 3rd places at open and champ shows. Would any of these count for any points in the US? :thanx:
 

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The AKC point system lists the number of dogs required to receive that point. 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 points. If they have fewer than that, the can not get that point or points. The points are different in each area. Look at the state where the show was held and it will tell you the number of dogs required to be awarded that point. They are different in dogs and bitches, each having a number of dogs listed.

If you have fewer dogs than is listed for 1 pt, no points will be awarded. Unless for instance you have go Best of Winners and there is a point in the other sex. If you happen to have no competition in bitches or too few bitches for a point, but go over the dog for Best of winners, you will be awarded the same number of points as the dog.

With 3 dogs, I can almost assure you that there would only be 1 pt. Remember too that you have to have at least two majors in the AKC to become a champion. That takes many dogs, I'm think going on twenty or more in that sex. No easy task.

Hope that answers your question.
 

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http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/RREGS3.pdf
Chapter 16 explains how championships are earned. The country is divided into different reagions, and a "point schedule" is made for each region, based on how many dogs of each breed compete compete in an area.

American Kennel Club - How to count Grand Championship points at AKC Dog Shows
This one explains Grand Championships.

Basically, "class", that is, non-champions, compete for points. The best male "class" dog is called Winners Dog, and the best "class" bitch is called Winners Bitch. They are the only ones awarded championship points. It gets a bit complicated from there, but that is the basics. Also, a dog has to win two "majors", that is, 3 or more points in one show, and a total of 15 points, under at least 3 (I think), judges, and the majors must be under different judges.
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thank you for your help!

So am I right in saying you have all the classes for dogs and bitches, eg Puppy, Junior, Limit, Open ect and the overall winner for each sex is winners dog, then they go on to compete for BOB? And champions dont count, so if for example we were in a class as non-champ and we came second in our class to a champion, we would get the points and not the champ? :confused:

Its super confusing about the different areas having different points! So I guess its easier to gain a championship in some areas than other areas?

So a major is a show with more than 20 entries? When you say 20 dogs, is that 20 dogs in each class (junior, limit open ect) or 20 dogs overall? 20 dogs in a class would be unheard of here, except at a large champ show for bitches maybe.

Our system seems so much easier to understand by comparison :p
 

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Sea Hag
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Thank you for your help!

So am I right in saying you have all the classes for dogs and bitches, eg Puppy, Junior, Limit, Open ect and the overall winner for each sex is winners dog, then they go on to compete for BOB? And champions dont count, so if for example we were in a class as non-champ and we came second in our class to a champion, we would get the points and not the champ? :confused:


While there's nothing preventing a champion from entering classes for non champions, 99% of the time, the only class a champion will be entered in is BOB.

If you see a champion competing in a non champion class, it's usually because they finished their championship during that cluster of shows, and they're staying in the non champion class so as not to break a major entry-ie, if they moved to the BOB class, there wouldn't be enough animals of their sex for a major.

Yes, there are regions where it's a LOT easier to finish dogs than other areas. The point system for each region is calculated annually, based on the entries for that region in the last three years.
 

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Sea Hag
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So a major is a show with more than 20 entries? When you say 20 dogs, is that 20 dogs in each class (junior, limit open ect) or 20 dogs overall? 20 dogs in a class would be unheard of here, except at a large champ show for bitches maybe.


Points are never calculated at the class level.
 

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American Kennel Club - Point Schedule
This is a link to the latest point shchedule. Different areas have different numbers of dogs that need to be defeated, based on how many dogs of each breed compete in the area.

The classes we have are :
Puppy, 6-9 Months
Puppy 9-12 months
12-18 Months
Novice
Amateur-Owner-Handler
Bred-By-Exhibitor
American Bred
Open

These classes are offered for dogs and bitches. All the dogs that win their class compete for Winners Dog. All the bitches that win their class compete for Winners Bitch. Winners Dog and Winners Bitch are the only ones awarded points. Everyone else gets a ribbon, and bragging rights about winning their class. WD and WB then compete for "Best of Winners". That's when things start to get more complicated. Whoever is BOW gets the higher number of points awarded that day. Say, WD took BOW, and he had 1 point. If there were enough bitches shown that WB had a 3 point major, then WD would also get 3 points (instead of his 1), because he beat WB for BOW. WB would not lose her points, though.

Then, let's say that WD/BOW also takes Best of breed. He moves on to the Group Ring. If he wins the Group, and beats another class dog who has a 4 point major, then he would get 4 points, instead of three. Now, let's say that he also takes Best in Show, and beats another (class dog) group winner who had a 5 point major. Then the dog aould get 5 points, instead of four. None of the other dogs would lose their points, but, our class dog, who originally had only one point, now has five.

Champion dogs entered in Best of Breed do not compete for championship points, and do not count in the number of dogs defeated by a class dog, even if they beat champions to get BOB. They do, however, compete for Grand Championship points, which is a whole 'nother novel, and which I haven't figured out myself.
 

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Sea Hag
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So am I right in saying you have all the classes for dogs and bitches, eg Puppy, Junior, Limit, Open ect and the overall winner for each sex is winners dog,
Small point-the overall winner for males in the classes would be winners dog. In bitches, winners bitch.

In the BOB class, winners dog and winners bitch compete against one another for best of winners. BOW gets the higher of the points offered that day. For example: WD earned 3 points and winner's bitch earned 2 points. WB goes BOW-and so walks away with 3 points.
 

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You know, I've been showing for years and I know the point system, but reading explanations about how we count points is certainly confusing! :) With respect to the Open class in Dobermans, there are actually 2...Open and Open AOAC (Any Other Allowed Color). In the Open AOAC, you'd find the reds, blues, and fawns.

I don't think the link below was shared, but it provides some different scenarios for counting points. In the US we have 15 different divisions. For example, Jordan is entered in BOB in 2 weeks at a couple of shows here in Idaho, so that would be Division 13.

American Kennel Club - How to Count Points at AKC Dog Shows

Jan
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks again for the help guys :) I'm slowly getting bits of it, but I think i'll need to read the same bits over and over again before it sticks. I find it really interesting how different parts of the world operate. Im beginning to understand more now why people talk about following judges and travelling to different areas to get points. Im normally in the USA at least once a year, next time im over i'm definitely going to make an effort to attend a few shows!

I think its great that champs arnt entered with other dogs once they've already got their championship, here the same dogs seem to get the CCs over and over again and it almost prevents really nice dogs finishing because they're stuck below a nicer dog who wins at all the champs. It also seems harder to finish than I initially believed it to be; I thought the most points you could get in one go was 5 points and if that was correct then a dog could become a champion in 3 shows, over one weekend if there were a cluster of shows.

Ive never seen a blue or fawn Dobermann in the UK, let alone in the ring!
 

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Sea Hag
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It also seems harder to finish than I initially believed it to be; I thought the most points you could get in one go was 5 points and if that was correct then a dog could become a champion in 3 shows, over one weekend if there were a cluster of shows.
5 points per show IS the maximum you can earn. You can finish a dog in three shows, in one cluster of shows with three 5 point majors. The number of dogs who are able to do that can be counted on one hand, it's NOT easy at all!

Just last year a puppy did just that. 3 five point majors over one weekend in 4 shows. He was a champion at 6 months, 10 days old. This is once in a blue moon stuff, most especially for a puppy.
 

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Oh, yeah, some breeds/varieties do have divisions for open class, based on color (Dobe, Great Dane), size (Boston Terrier), or coat (Dachshunds). Most breeds or varieties only have the one Open class, though. Also, Varieties (Cockers, Poodles, Doxies, etc.) don't compete ainst each other for BOB, but each Variety has a Best of Variety, so you will have three different Cocker Spaniels in the Sporting Group, three Dachshunds in the Hound group, two poodles in Non-Sporting, etc.

Yes, the most points you can get in one show is 5, and technically, a dog can finish in three shows, if they are all 5 point wins, and under different judges. It's a possible, just not likely senario.

It's also possible for a dog to get all their points at the group and BIS level. If there are no other dogs of their breed entered, and they are awarded BOB, and they win the group, they get the same number of points as any other class dog they beat in the group.

Like I said, it gets more complicated after WD and WB.
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
A champion at 6 months WOW can I ask his name so I can look him up?

I guess it varies a lot for the time it takes to finish a dog? So some dogs will finish very quickly, others will take months of campaigning?

Over here under 18 months we collect points for a JW (Junior Warrant) which is 24 points. You get 1 point for winning BPIB or coming 1st in Junior at an open show and 1 point for winning BPIB or 1st in Junior at a championship show were CCs were not on offer, or 3 points where CCs were on offer. Minimum of 3 dogs in a class to get a point. I believe over here you have to gain at least 1 of the 3 CCs required over 18 months of age so we cannot have puppy champs.
 

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I think this is him.

Dobequest:Dog Profile Page

I believe his call name is Brew. I was actually just looking through the issue of Doberman Digest that announced his championship.
 
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I'm not sure if this was posted or not yet, but heres the schedule of points which explains how many dogs/bitches need to be there to earn a certain number of points. Shows | Point Schedule

And yes, there are certainly different ages that each dog finishes at. I'd say 2 or 3 years is the average age for dobermans to finish in my area (from what I've seen.) Avril finished at just over a year, and some dogs don't even start showing until they are a year.
 

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5 points per show IS the maximum you can earn. You can finish a dog in three shows, in one cluster of shows with three 5 point majors. The number of dogs who are able to do that can be counted on one hand, it's NOT easy at all!

Just last year a puppy did just that. 3 five point majors over one weekend in 4 shows. He was a champion at 6 months, 10 days old. This is once in a blue moon stuff, most especially for a puppy.
And that specific blue moon puppy was a Connor grandson, wasn't he? :)
 

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Sea Hag
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And yes, there are certainly different ages that each dog finishes at. I'd say 2 or 3 years is the average age for dobermans to finish in my area (from what I've seen.) Avril finished at just over a year, and some dogs don't even start showing until they are a year.
True, a lot depends on *when* someone starts showing a dog.

Connor was over two when we started showing him, and he finished lightening fast-in 14 shows. Razzle was shown at a younger age, but sparingly, only on selected weekends-she was 2 when she finished, but was only shown 9 weekends in total. There were periods that lasted months when she wasn't shown at all.

Thunder, whom I bred, finished at 8 months of age. His litter brother was pointed from the puppy classes, then stayed home a good long time to grow up. When we brought him out again at age 2, he finished quickly.

Quality varies even between champions, so there can be huge variations in how long it takes and how many shows it takes to finish dogs, even if they begin showing at the same time. Some dogs are always competitive in any competition and under any judge. Others get dragged around for a long time and have to struggle to finish.
 

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5 points per show IS the maximum you can earn. You can finish a dog in three shows, in one cluster of shows with three 5 point majors. The number of dogs who are able to do that can be counted on one hand, it's NOT easy at all!

Just last year a puppy did just that. 3 five point majors over one weekend in 4 shows. He was a champion at 6 months, 10 days old. This is once in a blue moon stuff, most especially for a puppy.
Wow, that is amazing! Is he the youngest doberman to become an AKC CH?
 
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