[JennSLK]

First off i want to apologise because I got snippy in my last post about Jazz's legs. I have a few things going on right now and I let the stress come out in my post.

I am VERY new to the show world, having been introduced to it only in January 2006.

Most people say that it is harder to get a AKC Ch. than a CKC Ch. Why? The only difference I know is AKC is 15 points and 3 majors were the CKC is 10 points and 2 majors.

So besides that is it the amount of dogs you have to beat for a major? What is the difference. I am willing to learn I just came off bad in the last post.

Please no fights.

 

[Murreydobe]

Most people say that it is harder to get a AKC Ch. than a CKC Ch. Why? The only difference I know is AKC is 15 points and 3 majors were the CKC is 10 points and 2 majors.

To earn an AKC ch. you need to earn 15 points. with at least two major wins under two different judges. Majors are defined as 3, 4, or 5 point wins.

To earn a CKC ch. you need 10 points, with one win being at least 2 points. I think you also need to earn those 10 points under at least two different judges.

The point system for AKC is calculated on prior entries, and is updated every year. It's also divided into different regions, with some regions having a higher point schedule than others.

My bitchette, for example, just earned a major last month in Utah. It was 3 points, just missing being 4 points by 2 bitches. As I remember, she beat 26 other class bitches that day. So that's one major under her belt-she still has to do that one more time just to fulfill the requirement for majors, in addition to earning 9 singles.

I don't know how the CKC calculates their point structure, but Duncdobe just posted that you need to beat 3 dobermans to earn a 2 point win. So it's possible to earn a CKC ch. with really minimal competition..no more than 3 dogs, and you only have to do that one time. By comparison, beating 3 dogs in my region won't even earn you a single point..I think you need to have a minimum entry of 4 dogs to earn one point.

So the requirements are considerably lower for a CKC championship. Also, when there's a lot of competition, it tends to raise the bar on quality for the average dog of that breed who earns the title. There's a greater range of quality among CKC ch.s than there is among AKC chs.

 

[MaryAndDobes]

To earn a CKC ch. you need 10 points, with one win being at least 2 points. I think you also need to earn those 10 points under at least two different judges.

It's 3 judges in Canada, same as the US in that respect.

 

[doberkim]

Jenn, you can read what it takes to be a champion in both countries on both the AKC and CKC website. It can be confusing, and at first when I entered the dog community I didn't understand majors and the points schedule.

While there is no doubt that there are some great dogs in Canada, the fact is there are not as many dobes at the shows, and from what I hear (As I have not been to a CKC show, and will not attend or show in Ontario due to breed bans) - there simply is not the number of dobes in each show. Mary I believe posted that a dog went BOB over 1 dog in Canada and it was bragged about - of course I would be super excited if my dog got BOB too, but its the same as getting high in trial when only 2 other dogs compete - there simply isn't the competition.

If you take all the dogs in canada and brought them to the US, it is true that some of them would NOT finish - because when you enter them into the highly competitive ring that the US presents most dobes with (thinking 20+ dobes in many areas - in my region, you typically need about 20+ to make a 3 pt major I believe) they wouldn't even get a second look. But when theres only two other dogs in the ring, it's much different.

You have had advice on other boards about just how competitive the dobe ring can be - I am not sure how much applies to canada since I don't know many people showing there (save for duncdobe and MaryandDobes, off the top of my head) -but its true down here. There are many good and not so good dogs down here in the US just like in canada - but the fact remains due to the smaller # of dobes you see at shows and the lower number required to beat a dog to get a major, more dogs of lesser quality will finish in canada potentially than in the US.

 

[MaryAndDobes]

In Canada you really have to look at *how* the dog finished, not just that it finished.

I've got a couple of Canadian champions that picked up 2 points 5 times. IOW, not much competition at all, and frankly, it was crappy competition!

And I have Canadian champions that picked up some of their points at specialties over American champions that were here competing. Their Canadian championships are a little more *meaningful*. ;-)

 

[duncdobe]

Can Ch.

you said it Mary.

When I got BOB, WD, BOW, Best Puppy with a puppy a few weeks ago it was nice and all but there weren't any specials entered and just a few dobes entered.

Although we got 3 points which was great. The same dogs WD win at our specialty under Mary Rodgers and more competition (including US dogs) was a more impressive win.

Here in BC we see some great dogs and many that can finish in the US and we see some really crappy dogs that go all over the place to finish. Sometimes there are only 2 dogs entered and if you're in enough shows you will get a Championship.

Funny story though last year at one of our shows we had a judge from Norway (I think) and she was witholding all over the place. In fact she witheld in Dobes in the males (there was only 1 male entered from the US).

 

[Murreydobe]

Sometimes there are only 2 dogs entered and if you're in enough shows you will get a Championship.

Needing so few dogs to earn points (and thus a championship) also makes it a LOT easier to "build your own entry", stacking the classes with your own dogs..many times these are pet quality dogs, entered just to get the numbers up enough to benefit one dog.

Not saying that doesn't happen here as well, it does at times. But it would be considerably harder for me to stack the classes with my own dogs when I'd need 20+ dogs to earn a major.

Even in this country, *how* a dog finishes is just as important (if not more) than whether the dog finishes. Finishing a dog with 3 or more majors is a little more impressive than getting 2 majors and the rest single points, 1 at a time.

And because our point structure varies (sometimes dramatically) by region, WHERE a dog gets their points matters as well. There are lots of jokes about taking dogs to Alaska to finish, because you only need something like 4-5 dogs for majors there. That doesn't mean there are no good dogs in Alaska-my puppy comes from Fairbanks. But good Alaskan breeders generally send their dogs out of state to let them have some real competition for at least some of their points..they don't rely on the Alaskan point structure to prove their dogs.

I remember when Murrey (my first champion) had both majors, and just needed a single to finish. All of her points up until then were earned in California..which at that time had the highest point structure in the country, and a legendary level of competition. Her breeder (who put most of her points on her) wanted to take her to shows in Nevada to get that last point..mainly because she wanted to go gamble. I said, "NO WAY, JOSE"..I wasn't going to blow "all points earned in California" over one lousy single.
Now there isn't that much difference between the point structure in Nev., OR, Utah, WA when compared to CA. But it made a big difference then.

 

[PeeWeesMama]

Jen, what did your friends say at comformation class? Were they helpful?

 

[Dobedad]

Is it possible to find out "how" a dog finished? Is there are resource for looking up results of shows including points earned, number of dogs in competition etc.?

 

[Murreydobe]

Is it possible to find out "how" a dog finished? Is there are resource for looking up results of shows including points earned, number of dogs in competition etc.?

You can get a lot of free information by following one of the doberman email lists that are centered around showing..a lot of show results are posted there.

Also by subscribing to Doberman Digest, where people will place ads for bragging purposes..individual win pics are published, and when dogs finish, a lot of the time their owners will detail how they finished-what shows the dog was pointed at, who the judges were and what points came from each win.

Or you can research through the AKC online store..for $8.00 they'll give you the awards record for any dog..that lists every show where they received a class placement, won points, went BOB, earned a group placement or BIS.

Most of these sources won't tell you the number of dogs entered, but if you know the points earned on any given day and where the show was, you can get a ballpark idea of what the entry was by checking the point schedule for that region.

 

[Okie-dobie]

Dobedad is in Ontario. So I am not sure if he means dogs in Canada or the U.S. ?

 

[Murreydobe]

Dobedad is in Ontario. So I am not sure if he means dogs in Canada or the U.S. ?

Oh, that's a different story..the AKC online store probably wouldn't be a great amount of help to get info about shows in Canada.

Maybe Maryandobes or Duncdobe can tell him if the CKC has a similiar service.

 

[MaryAndDobes]

I'm afraid that the CdnKC is way behind the AKC in terms of accessing databases/points etc on their website.

Show results are posted to the CKC website somewhere, but it may only be accessible to CKC members - I'm not sure. Club members used to get a printed monthly version of show results all across Canada but they took that away from us and we have to pay to get that now. The last time I looked up show results on the CKC site, it was unbearably slow and I just never did again.

For myself, I started keeping notes on my site of where my dogs earned their points and how many so people would have an idea of whether there was much competition or not.
Eg
http://members.execulink.com/~korevaar/Kismetmore.htm

 

[duncdobe]

CKC Results

they do have it on their website but it's really behind; something like 3 months behind.

I loved getting it monthly with our magazine but I guess that was too expensive.

 

[Dobedad]

Great discussion and answers, thanks for helping a novice!

 

[dobie lover]

This is very good info, as I am still learning about the show world as well

Mary

Does Brian still handle your dogs?? I was speaking with Pat& brian 3 weeks ago and I got to watch Brian in the ring for the first time, he is very good and I hope he can show me a few pointers..lol

 

[MaryAndDobes]

Mary

Does Brian still handle your dogs??

Yes, but I'm not showing anyone in conformation at the moment. This is an obedience year for me. Hoping to finish CDs on Zeke, Jessie and Karma and getting started training with Kismet and Shelby.

BTW, I tooled around on the CKC site last night and one does have to be a CKC member to access show results there.

 

[waiting]

This is very good info, as I am still learning about the show world as well

Mary

Does Brian still handle your dogs?? I was speaking with Pat& brian 3 weeks ago and I got to watch Brian in the ring for the first time, he is very good and I hope he can show me a few pointers..lol

How true Brian is amazing, I have seen him in action too. He has the knack!!!

 

[dobebug]

I'm another one who shows in Canada Kim. Generally put Canadian championships on my dogs as well as AKC ones. It really does depend on how the dog gets points in Canada when you start assigning merit to the wins.

The first Dobe I owned finished in Canada with me showing him at 10 months(and I was green as grass at the time). He won the breed four days in a row and went 2nd in the Working Group four days in a row. In Canada you can get points for Group placements as well as for a Group 1. He got four point for each of the Group 2's and I should have pulled him after the third show but didn't know about the points from the group placements at the time--but he had 12 points under three judges then. So he finished with 16 points under four judges. I'm sure people would have been very irked with me if it hadn't been clear that I knew NOTHING. That was in 1960 and I've shown most of my dogs in Canada since then as well as in the States.

I had one who was incredibly hard to finish in Canada--it was weird--most of his competition was Canadian and the only time he was winning was when the competition was primarily up from the States. He finished his AKC championship when he was just over two and it took him close to another year to get his last four points in Canada. On the other hand the last dog who I showed in Canada finished in something like 8 shows--and in four of them he was there only because I was there with another dog--and he was a very gangly puppy at the time and no way deserved to win anything.

But there are some wonderful breeders in Canada and some Canadian bred dogs have been stunning and have played a major part in the general breeding of North American Dobermans.

RM (Bug) Russell