[LCGSDmama]

On lookin for a doberman...

I want a male... a male pup will do FINE in my home... its a female that would be ground beef when she would get older... My Female Rottie, does NOT like other females... Malachi, my male GSD, love both male and female...

I called Bonnie, of Wittrock Dobermans, and she will NOT sell one of her male pups to a home that already has a male... But a female if OK...

WTF? I know MORE dog fights that occure because of two females living in the same house then two males... its called pack order.. HELLO...

I have a friend who shows/trains and breeds West German Show line GSDs.. she'd have NO issues with giving me a male... then again, she KNOWS me...

Marcia from JKK dodermans called me the other day, but I was driving, and I asked her if I could call her back, no probs... well, I've tried calling her back, no answer.. I've sent her an email.. no reply... Did I shoot myself in the foot by telling her that I would call her back? I was TRYING to be a SAFE driver...

:damnit: :damnit: :damnit: :damnit: :damnit:

 

[Lexus]

I'm sorry you're having such a tough time, that just means when you finally find your dobe pup he will be all the more special and worth every minute you put into finding him.....
As for the two female thing- you know your Rottie, and stick to your guns, if a female is a no go, and just plain and simple NOT WHAT YOU WANT, then keep looking for your male! He's gonna show up! The hell with the people that flat out blow you off and don't even hear you out for what you know about your dog to be a fact.

The poster that mentioned CARA dobes seems to be onto something too, I checked out that website and was impressed.......any interest with them?

Remember too, not every two opinions will ever be the same....if you do finally find someone you're happy with or interested in, not everyone will be happy to hear who it is maybe or the bloodline, or god only knows what else........ make your own choices.

ALthough it's a shame that people don't return phone calls or emails, and I don't jump to defend them as I don't know the situation, remember it may either be a blessing in disguise, or they could just have so many phone calls or emails, inqueries, whatever that unfortunely they just don't respond timely. Please don't give up.....

Sorry if I preached.......

 

[LCGSDmama]

Hey Jess,

Nope you didnt preach, you are just kinda giving me a light at the end of teh tunnel... Cara, I'll have to re-check them out...

Thanks for the ray of hope!

 

[MaryAndDobes]

On lookin for a doberman...

I want a male... a male pup will do FINE in my home...

With all due respect, you do NOT know that.

You do appear to know that a female will not work in your situation - that's fine.

But you do NOT know what a male Doberman is going to turn into, no matter what your current dog is like. In fact, if your current male is a pushover, it may mean that the Doberman male will just have an easier time becoming a bully.

Bonnie Wittrock, while I don't know her, has been in Dobermans for a number of years. She KNOWS what her males are like. She also obviously knows what male Dobermans, in general, are like. Male to male aggression in Dobermans is so intrinsic to the breed that it's addressed in the standard. We can't always overcome it just because we think we're alpha or dominant or whatever terms you want to use. We can't always overcome nature just because we want to. The fact that your current male gets along with other males doesn't mean that whatever male you add to your family will get along with him.

Honestly, I would give up *at this time*. If you want a Doberman male, wait until your current male has passed on. I hope that's a long time from now. I'm certainly not wishing him any harm.

 

[LCGSDmama]

With all due respect, you do NOT know that.

You do appear to know that a female will not work in your situation - that's fine.

But you do NOT know what a male Doberman is going to turn into, no matter what your current dog is like. In fact, if your current male is a pushover, it may mean that the Doberman male will just have an easier time becoming a bully.

First, how do you know that it WON'T work?

Second, I hope you didnt think I was talking bad about Bonnie, because I wasn't. I was just stating what she had told me. My appologies IF it was comming out like I was bad-mouthing her, I was NOT.

I had a few other breeders of Dobermans, NOT have an issue with my wanting a male, when I already had a male in my house. My GSD is NOT a push over... He just likes other dogs... When he's had enough of play time, he lets the others know... Yes, he plays the submissive roll well, butu when he's has enough.. its enough...

 

[MaryAndDobes]

First, how do you know that it WON'T work?

The chances are extremely good that it won't. Doberman males usually are same sex aggressive once they reach maturity. I believe I've mentioned that but it doesn't seem like you're listening to those who have many years of experience with the breed.

I've had Dobermans for 24 years. I've been active in rescue for a few years. One of the most frequently heard reasons for giving up a male is that it's fighting with another male in the household. The family didn't know that would happen or they were warned and chose to ignore it because they knew better. :sadcry: I've been on many Doberman newsgroups and bulletin boards over the last 10 years, and it's a situation that goes on time and time again. There's a current thread about it on the Doberman Pinscher Discussion Forum as a matter of fact - a male Doberman that has reached maturity and no longer tolerates living with a good-natured, innocent, male pug that was there before him. Over and over, it happens. As I said, male to male aggression is such a big part of this breed that it's mentioned in the standard. It's not simple bantering over pack position - when it breaks out, and it often breaks out without a moment's notice, they mean to kill. You can think you're the dominant one or the alpha one in the household but at that moment, you are nothing to them.

I'm sure you have had breeders that would sell you a male, but with all due respect, I've seen some of the breeders you've been discussing here and they probably need the sale. The knowledgeable, responsible, experienced breeders like Bonnie are not going to put their dogs in a situation that has a high chance of failure.

Here's a link to an experienced breeder's story
http://www.kinetic-unity.com/males.html
Unfortunately, her tale is extremely common. Amy is an experienced obedience person who has titled her dogs.

 

[TakirasDad]

I personally do not know enough about the subject to comment. I did read the website that MaryAndDobes posted and I would certainly have second thoughts of owning 2 males after viewing the article.

I would hate to have to make that decision, so I dont think I would ever put myself in that situation, just IMO.

DA

 

[daynakb]

Learn from my experience

I believe I am the person MaryandDobes is talking about from the other forum. Hopefully there aren't two of us in this position! I'll see if I can explain the situation without writing a novel.

My husband and I decided we wanted a big dog and discussed several breeds before deciding on a Doberman. We already had two small dogs at this time - a female miniature pinscher and a male pug. We acquired both of these dogs by "accident". My husband knew the couple that bred Lily (min pin) and they gave her to us as she was the runt and they didn't think they would be able to sell her (it was their first litter). Mr Cheeks (pug) was owned by acquaintances of ours that were abusing him and when the lady told me one day she wanted to get rid of him I snatched him up without a second thought. In deciding on getting a Doberman, my husband wanted a bigger dog to protect me. At that time he was grounds manager of a cemetery and we lived in a house on the cemetery property. There were no neighbors and we were way off the main road. At that time I was walking quite a bit for exercise and Ron didn't like me walking alone, especially in such an isolated area. For my part, I have always loved big dogs but never had one. My mother didn't care for pets. We discussed different breeds but could only agree on the Doberman. We thought we were being proactive in researching Dobes online and I spoke to a lady at work that had a rescue Dobe and had owned another Dobe before that one. Everything we came across said their temperment was excellent and they were good with other dogs. The lady at work told me the same thing. We decided on a male because Lily (min pin) is 100% alpha dog. She's also a very big dog in a little bitty body with attitude to spare. We thought that bringing another female into the house would cause problems because of Lily's attitude and neither of us wanted to deal with the fighting. Lily will not back down from bigger dogs. She will fight with everything she has to prove how "big" she is inside. Cheeks (pug) on the other hand is such a mild mannered passive dog. He has such a sweet, loving attitude; have never even heard him growl during play! He loves every person, animal and thing on the planet and it never enters his mind that something may not love him back. We didn't think he would mind at all holding up last place in the pack.

Anyway, to make a long story shorter, we brought Klaus, our Dobe, home when he was about 9 weeks. He was good natured and lovable. Lily never did really take to him and maintains her alpha status to this day but Cheeks was in heaven having a new playmate. Klaus and Cheeks would play all the time. We penned Klaus in the kitchen at first when we had to go to work as we didn't have a kennel. We used a baby gate to block the doorway. Cheeks would jump the gate while we were gone so he could play with Klaus. (That's where Klaus learned to jump the gate, so we got the kennel.)

Then at just over a year old Klaus' attitude toward Cheeks took a dramatic turn. He began aggressively attacking Cheeks out of the blue with no warning and nothing seeming to provoke him. At first it was random and long periods passed between attacks. As time went on the attacks happened more often and now they are almost constant. Cheeks has never been seriously hurt, although he has been bloodied, but that's because someone is always near enough to pull Klaus off before he could do serious damage. Klaus is always kenneled when we are not home so they are never alone together. Now at 17 months old and 85+ pounds Klaus is a force to be reckoned with when the aggression takes over. And that's exactly what it does - TAKES OVER!!!! There is no redirecting him at these times. His mind is completely focused on killing Cheeks and he sees nothing else around him. It takes every ounce of strength I have to drag him away. My husband had to resort to squeezing his throat once because he had Cheeks in his jaws off the ground and was shaking him and would not release him.

There was no warning before this aggression started and no reason for it to happen at all. Now we live in a house divided with the barricades in doorways so the big dog never comes in contact with the little dogs. I am researching all over again and again searching for trainers. And it is only now that I learned that male Dobes typically do not get along with other males of ANY breed once they hit maturity. Every trainer, vet and so one that I have spoken to has told me this. Funny it was never mentioned when we originally researched. At this point I am being told that Klaus may never be able to be around Cheeks even with more training.

Please keep this in mind. The two males in your home may get along at first but it can change in a heartbeat and there is no time table on when or if this change will occur. It was over a year before it happened to us. If nothing else learn from my mistake.

 

[Lexus]

Hi Kayla, ..... of course it is your opinion that counts here, not mine if you don't agree with me and agree with others that's just fine and dandy with me, however I just wanted to tell you anyway

1) You are familiar with large dogs that have the tendancy or ability to be aggressive, GDS rotties, etc...

2) Pack order with you as the dominant DOES count (as you are well aware with your large dogs).

3) You live with, train, and show these large dogs, so a dobe isn't going to be a uncrossable bridge for you. Or something you've never dealt with before.

4) Deepest sympathy to the woman with the pug, however one major part of her story grabs my attention, she admitted to not having experience with large dogs, much less dobes (a possibly aggressive animal as opposed to a large breed like a lab or something..)

5) dobe ownership is different from another large breed, they need and crave human contact and need to be second to their human (just like a GSD, you can't let them run the house or you will get in trouble)

Now I realize, that of course it can go the other way, however Kayla is experienced with large potentially aggressive dogs, and as this is to be a competative animal would be trained from day one. If there is someone out there that can handle this and raise this animal to behave correctly, it is her.
As a personal experience note- years before Lexus, my house was home to a male GSD and a rescued male Dobe, this dobe was a ex police dog turned "junkyard" (tied out in a scrapyard to live out his life barking at the end of a chain) dog. They lived out their lives peacefully with eachother and with OBEDIENCE work and submission (to me) work nearly daily, if anybody attitiude was even remotely what I considered "off" that day, time to work, everything was earned, from food to playtime . So it can work. I've always had large breeds, GSD's for the most part, my smallest dog is my rescued aussie, so lexy is only my second dobie, but I've always had large dogs in my home.

Once again, I truly value that it is stated that male on male dobe may not work all the time, however it does work time and again for many people. As I said, Kayla, to each his own. I only offer my opinion, you make the ultimate choice. Good luck and best wishes.... feel free to email me if you want to talk....

Jessie

 

[LCGSDmama]

WOOHOO!

Thanks Jessie!

ANd everything you just did say, is the stuff that I had been thinking about... but I just didnt think I could say them with out sounding like a bitch... So, thank you for reading my mind!

 

[MaryAndDobes]

1) You are familiar with large dogs that have the tendancy or ability to be aggressive, GDS rotties, etc...

2) Pack order with you as the dominant DOES count (as you are well aware with your large dogs).

*I* am also familiar with large dogs, especially Dobermans considering that I've owned them for 24 years. The link to Amy's website -- as I mentioned, Amy is also considerably Doberman experienced. We both breed them, we both compete with them in shows and obedience trials. Being "familiar" with them doesn't overcome deepseated instincts.

Pack order has nothing to do with this. Just because we humans want something to work doesn't mean it will.

I'm done. I'm experienced enough with dogs to know what is likely to work and not work and I'm experienced enough with humans to know when I'm talking to brick walls ...

Just keep in mind that it's the dogs that pay for our decisions.

 

[LCGSDmama]

I'm experienced enough with humans to know when I'm talking to brick walls ...

Hey now, theres no need for name calling.. :sadcry:

Did I say F*** this, I'm getting a dobe no matter what? Nope... I never said that...

Did I say I was gonna go to a BYB to get one? Hell no, I would never do that...

RIght now, I'm a little sad, because I DO LISTEN to what you and the other chick said... and like Jessie said that other chick had NO experience with big dogs... so she had to learn the hard way...

For right now, I think I'll stop looking for a Doberman, I'll just wait.. I have NO PROBLEMS with that... yes its gonna be a pain in the ass since I've wanted a Dobe for YEARS... but whats a few more years gonna kill?

Oh, you made a comment about the breeders that I was looking at... why do you think I joined this forum? SO i could LEARN about what breeders to stay away from... How is an average person supposed to know whos a good breeder and a bad breeder? And THAT would go to ALL breeders. I came in here so that I could ask questions, get answers, and go from there.

Is that so damned wrong?

 

[daynakb]

I apologize if I offended anyone when I discussed problems with my dobe and aggression. That wasn't my intention. Sometimes I get a little too detailed. I posted my aggression issues simply to mean that, while I know not every dog is the same, it's always a possibility and it was a real surprise to me since the dobe and pug were best friends for over a year. I wasn't implying anything with the post or trying to say Kayla should not get a Doberman.

Just to clarify, as Lexus said - yes, I am inexperienced with large breed dogs. That's why I researched when we decided on a Doberman. My mistake was moving too quickly and not researching enough. I thought it was enough. Since I am again researching to solve the aggression issue if possible I dug out my notes from the beginning and went back over them. I researched online at several different sites and Doberman specific forums. I called every vet in the phone book and asked their opinion and asked them to provide me a list of qualified breeders who could help. I got virtually the same list from each vet. Some of the numbers on their lists were no longer good. Of the breeders on the list with good working numbers only two sounded intelligent. Red flags went up right away with one who told me that she only had one male and would charge an amount I can't specifically recall now but was well over $1,000.00 and based solely on the fact that he was a big puppy from birth and because of this she estimated he would grow to be over 100 pounds so was worth more money. The breeder I really liked flat out said that she didn't feel one of her dogs would be good for me since she bred, raised and trained protection and helper dogs and I was not experienced enough especially for a male. The breeder we chose sounded great but knowing what I know now is really not a "professional" and not as knowledgable as I first thought. I also had several discussions with a lady I worked with that had adopted two rescue Dobermans (not at the same time) and also had a rescued miniature dachsund in the home with her second Dobe. All forums, websites, vets, breeders and coworker told me how fabulous Dobes were and that they would get along well with other dogs and are very people oriented and loving and so on and so on. Aggression was brought up but I was told again by everyone that either they had never experienced this or if I started obedience classes right away it wouldn't be a problem. That's why we felt comfortable enough to go ahead with the breed despite inexperience.

It is only now that I'm learning the truth and I've had to research much deeper to get it. But you know, you can't sell dogs if you start off with the negative. Bad way to think of things if you ask me but it happens. And living in Columbia, MO didn't help. It is a college town and runs as such. I was looked at in horror when mentioning prong collars and told that was cruel and dogs should be trained positively only with no negative reinforcement. As for the vets, large breeds were owned in town but people shied away from the so-called "aggressive" breeds and so didn't see many Rotts, Dobes, Pits and such and vets were quoting from text instead of speaking from experience.

Not everyone will share the same experience I did but I am putting it out there as a warning so others don't make my mistakes. I am now starting over again with my dobe and I will do everything I can to help him be a better dog, even though I know that I may never be able to "cure" his aggression with the pug and will probably have to keep them apart from now on.

Kayla, I hope it works out for you. I can see you love Dobermans and I do too. You have more experience with large breeds than I do and are getting better information. I hope you find a fantastic Dobe and will keep checking back to see if you do!

 

[Blackdog]

Why don't you contact your local doberman rescue??? You could take ALL your dogs with you to see if they have something that ALL your dogs can get along with. You could get a dobe and save a life at the same time.

The dobe rescues across the country are listed here www.dpcacope.org

If you decide at some point to buy a doberman, I'd recommend reading this

http://members.execulink.com/~korevaar/buyingguide.htm

thoroughly before contacting any breeders. It will save you a lot of time and help you to weed out the less than reputable breeders.



PS to the Admin - the list of breeders posted by Paige when the board first opened are a "who's who" of gawd awful breeders - a couple of them breed albinos. I get the feeling you are trying to do right by this board, and you should probably remove those listings before someone thinks they are truly recommended breeders

 

[Lexus]

*I* am also familiar with large dogs, especially Dobermans considering that I've owned them for 24 years. The link to Amy's website -- as I mentioned, Amy is also considerably Doberman experienced. We both breed them, we both compete with them in shows and obedience trials. Being "familiar" with them doesn't overcome deepseated instincts.

Pack order has nothing to do with this. Just because we humans want something to work doesn't mean it will.

I'm done. I'm experienced enough with dogs to know what is likely to work and not work and I'm experienced enough with humans to know when I'm talking to brick walls ...

Just keep in mind that it's the dogs that pay for our decisions.

I don't believe I ever once attempted to insult or question your experience.....

I value your opinion about the pack order, however I don't quite fully agree with it, but I do so also without any name calling.

Jessie