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Good Breeders

Hi, I'm new here, I've had Dobermans for several years. My current Doberman is a red male named Mic who is 11 years old. He is half German and half American breeding.

To Kayla, a few things about finding a Doberman breeder. The forum administrator posted a link for you to an article about finding a good Doberman breeder. I skimmed it and it said do not be fooled by large commercial kennel breeders since they are in it for the profit. That is a good description of Hoytt. Another one like that is Kimbertal. I could go on but rather than write a book if you have any questions, ask me and I'll be glad to share what I know.

Male Dobermans are notoriously same-sex dog aggressive, so it isn't really a good idea to get a male Doberman when you have another male dog, especially of a large breed like a GSD. It sometimes happens that male Dobermans will live peacefully with other males, but it is the exception rather than the rule, and you can't depend on being one of the exceptions.

Do you have a schutzhund/PSA/or ring club you are training with now?
 

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Hello micdobe welcome to the site, we are interested in the opinions of experienced dobe owners.

Thanks for sharing and offering to help.

Maybe when you have time you could upload some of Mic's pictures in our gallery so we can get a look at him.

Thanks
DA
 

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Sure I can help.

Click on the gallery icon at the top of the page under the Dobermantalk logo. What you want to do is navigate to the "Memebers" section. You will then see a link to upload your photos. You may upload as many as you like. What will then happen is that a sub-category will be made with your username that contains all of your pictures. It will be a little mini gallery just for your pictures, each user on the site can have their own. I will then be notified that new images were uploaded and I will approve them( This keeps people from uploading illiegal or pornographic images). After that you will have your own image gallery.

I will most likely in the future remove the approval process for members that have been here and I know wont upload anything not fit for our site.

As always if you have any questions feel free to let me know.

Thanks!
DA


micdobe said:
Hi,
I would be happy to post pictures of Mic, but I don't know how to do it. Can you help?

Thanks.
 

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LCGSDmama said:
OMG Lexus! I love that site.. and I think I might get my dobe from him too!

I hope you will reconsider that thought.

The House of Hoytt is a commercial kennel, breeding dogs for profit not to improve the breed.

Although they are active in some obedience activities, they are not bettering the breed conformationally or adhering to the breed standard. They purposely breed oversized Dobermans to fill orders - that's not helping the breed.

Barrie Hoytt has admitted on a large public Doberman newsgroup that they breed for money. That's not the type of breeder I'd want to support. I'd want to support one that adheres to the breed standard.

In short, the dogs are not bred to the standard. There is little health testing done - look for Hoytt Dobermans in the OFA database or the CERF database, for example. Not a lot of recent results considering the amount of dogs they breed. Additionally, do your homework and contact Tennessee Doberman rescue organizations (and some of the others around the country for that matter) - there are plenty of Hoytt Dobermans that have come through rescue organizations and they can tell you their observations about health and temperament.

The "guarantee" that the kennel offers is just laughable if anyone with an ounce of common sense cares to scrutinize it.

You can do so much better than that.

I will once again recommend that anyone interested in a Doberman puppy would do well to spend some time on this resource
http://members.execulink.com/~korevaar/buyingguide.htm
 

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Why do you consider the "guarentee" laughable? I'd like to consider myself to have "an ounce of common sense" and I don't see it as laughable? Can't say that if something went wrong with my girl I'd send her back (I wouldn't) however that option is there anyway.

And dobermans are Mr. Hoytt's livelyhood, considering that I've seen his facilites first hand, the animals are loved, treated very well, their training methods are fantastic, all dobes and pups get one on one attention and are socialized. I don't see this is such a bad thing, considering how many bad people there are out there doing it and breeding animals that shouldn't be bred, etc. At least this is someone that takes care of the animals.

And there are dogs bred for what the people want to do with them, for example if LCGDmama wants a dog for competing in Shutzhund (mind you I admit fully I don't know a lot about schutzhund) however, I would assume that this would require an animal that is outgoing and whatever else. Hoytt has been doing this long enough that he is able to pick such an animal out for her. Rather than having someone else or herself guess that a pup will be made for her competitions. He doesn't have pups on hand all the time either, there isn't always a bred female at hand, whatever people may think. It may take a while before the right match has been made for parents.

A final thought is that many dobes from many breeders go (very unfortunately) through humane societies and rescues. As far as temperment, how much of that is a result of the owners? People get frustrated if a pup chews stuff (could be any dog, not just a hoytt dog) potties in the house too much, unfortunetely some people don't understand patience, the dog get thrown on their cage all the time, maybe they end up not having time for it, it gets thrown on a chain in the back yard, maybe their animal is higher energy and needs exercise and isn't getting it, it gets frustrated and causes problems for it's owner. Wasn't socialized enough, etc, we all know that sadly the list goes on and on for why any animal's temper can go sour.






MaryAndDobes said:
I hope you will reconsider that thought.

The House of Hoytt is a commercial kennel, breeding dogs for profit not to improve the breed.

Although they are active in some obedience activities, they are not bettering the breed conformationally or adhering to the breed standard. They purposely breed oversized Dobermans to fill orders - that's not helping the breed.

Barrie Hoytt has admitted on a large public Doberman newsgroup that they breed for money. That's not the type of breeder I'd want to support. I'd want to support one that adheres to the breed standard.

In short, the dogs are not bred to the standard. There is little health testing done - look for Hoytt Dobermans in the OFA database or the CERF database, for example. Not a lot of recent results considering the amount of dogs they breed. Additionally, do your homework and contact Tennessee Doberman rescue organizations (and some of the others around the country for that matter) - there are plenty of Hoytt Dobermans that have come through rescue organizations and they can tell you their observations about health and temperament.

The "guarantee" that the kennel offers is just laughable if anyone with an ounce of common sense cares to scrutinize it.

You can do so much better than that.

I will once again recommend that anyone interested in a Doberman puppy would do well to spend some time on this resource
http://members.execulink.com/~korevaar/buyingguide.htm
 

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Lexus said:
Why do you consider the "guarentee" laughable? I'd like to consider myself to have "an ounce of common sense" and I don't see it as laughable?
Well, for one thing, it fails to address the most common Doberman problems - dilated cardiomyopathy, thyroid conditions, vWD, CVI, etc.

I think that the "guarantee" depending on a yearly video requirement is ridiculous. Forget to send a video and your guarantee is void - how stupid is that? What does a video prove?

I also think that putting conditions down that may not correlate to a vet's recommendations is wrong. For instance, it specifies that if you spay/neuter the pet outside of Hoytt recommendations, the guarantee is void.

There are many mentions about the dog needing to be an "inside dog" for the guarantee to be valid. While I agree that Dobermans should always be "inside dogs", I don't think it should be a qualifier for a health guarantee. Health is health wherever the dog is or has been.


Lexus said:
And dobermans are Mr. Hoytt's livelyhood
Yes, I know - I said that they are. Frankly, I'm disgusted by people that make their living on the backs of their companion animals. I don't think that dogs owe us our financial freedoms.


Lexus said:
their training methods are fantastic
I was at the DPCA national in Colorado when the bitch of their breeding won the top 20 obedience. While her performance was technically correct thereby giving her the win, her attitude was extremely poor. The dog looked browbeaten. She was not a happy worker. She stood in stark contrast to most of the other Dobermans that appeared to be joyous in their routines. I felt uncomfortable watching her and I felt sorry for her. Seeing her performance certainly didn't give an impression that their training methods are fantastic.

Lexus said:
And he does offer larger dobes for people that desire that, if someone wants a oversize dobe they are going to find someone to get it from, at least this way, he knows the parentage, and there are coming from a good place, not a puppy mill.
A "good place" does more than just know the parentage and take care of the dogs. A truly responsible breeder cares about the standard for the breed and adheres to it. They fully health test their dogs (hips, elbows, vWD, thyroid, CERF, cardiac ultrasounds/Holters). A responsible breeder cares about the total package - conformation, health, temperament, longevity, working ability - they strive to prove it all, not just one or two aspects. They don't ship their puppies off all over the world to people that can provide a credit card number but can't be checked out personally, and they don't take custom orders as if they were selling pencils.


Lexus said:
A final thought is that many dobes from many breeders go (very unfortunately) through humane societies and rescues.
Yes, they unfortunately do. However, a responsible breeder home checks and tries their best to screen the home so that won't happen. And if it does happen, they will immediately take the dog back when contacted by an owner or a rescue organization. As I said to the original poster. contact some of the bigger Dobe rescue organizations in the US - ask them how many Hoytt dogs they get.

Lexus said:
As far as temperment, how much of that is a result of the owners? People get frustrated if a pup chews stuff (could be any dog, not just a hoytt dog) potties in the house too much, unfortunetely some people don't understand patience, the dog get thrown on their cage all the time, maybe they end up not having time for it, it gets thrown on a chain in the back yard, maybe their animal is higher energy and needs exercise and isn't getting it, it gets frustrated and causes problems for it's owner. Wasn't socialized enough, etc, we all know that sadly the list goes on and on for why any animal's temper can go sour.
Sure, that could happen - but wouldn't most of those people be weaned out in a good screening process?

I don't think that temperament is the result of an owner. *Behaviour* is the result of an owner. Temperament is genetic, and then may be influenced by an owner but good temperament is good temperament.

There was a woman on Doberworld a while back who had a Hoytt Doberman named Keeper. In short, Keeper tried to rip her scalp off, injuring her severely. She got no help from the Hoytts. Keeper wasn't very old either, I seem to recall he was under a year.
 

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The video purpose I do happen to know personally from Mr. hoytt, is to promote and ensure to him from a visual standpoint that the dog is being kept at optimum health, (weight coat condition all purely visual points) It is also more proof than a followup phone call that the dog is being cared for. As for the spay neuter against Mr. Hoytt's suggestions for age, that is his belief and as he mentions the VIN also beleives. Now personally I was a vet tech for years and years, and it was the belief of my vet then to spay before the first heat. Neuter at 6 months etc. Now I can accept that Mr. Hoytts beliefs for this are to his experience and those are his beliefs. No one has to agree to it unless they are participating in the garentee. We are talking a matter of three to four weeks for "before fist heat" or as he requests to keep the warantee "after first heat". Not that much time has to pass to keep the garentee valid.

As for the fact that this is his livelyhood and that disgusts you. Of course I can fully accept your opinion and how it makes you feel. I do realize however, there will be people that do this as a livelyhood no matter what. At least this breeder takes care of his animals, unlike many.

You mentioned that the bitch of the hoytt breeding won, that doesn't mean that Mr. hoytt or his trainer personally trained it. They offer training. Many people don't take it, I didn't, my dad didn't. The "look" you discribe could have easily come from her owners/handers. Also even if the training did come from Mr. hoytt's facilities, a dog is not a computer, you don't train it and it has it forever, the new handlers could have easily had a rough training program that made it that way. I have personaly seen many many hoytt dogs on the premises work and they are as happy perky and attentive as anyone could ask for. "It is also essential that the dog demonstrate willingness and enjoyment while it is working and that a smooth and natural handler be given precedence over a handler moving with military precision and using harsh commands. " quoted from AKC, so it must not have been to beaten down looking....

While Mr. Hoytt does screen to the best of his abilities, that doesn't mean that every dog will work out for every person. Imagine if he didn't screen to get the best match for a person/dog. Fact is people can be fickle, their situations can change, etc... A custom fit dog is provided to try and insure that new relationship will be a lifelong one, as the person will receive the exact dog they are looking for, protection level, size, energy level, (laid back, raring to go , etc)



As for the woman with "keeper" I did see that segment also. However, I am the first person to say with conviction, DON'T JUDGE WHAT YOU DON"T KNOW FOR YOURSELF AS FACT. I felt bad for her, however, I don't know for a fact all the facts to the situation. I don't know for a fact what was relayed to Mr. Hoytt about this, I don't know for a fact the "behavior" the dog was subject too or what may have been done to correct it well before hand.

I do know for a fact that Mr. Hoytt cares about his animals, the training they receive at the facilities is first rate reward and love system, that every dog I have seen there had a wonderful tempertment and were very socialized to all, I am a proud owner of a Hoytt dog that is TDI and CGC certified, who loves kids, cats, car rides, people, and has a very good head on her shoulders.

You are entitled to any opinion you have and it is no skin off my back. I have been in the horse show world for 10 years, and am now entering into the dog world (as far as showing and etc, I've always had rescued dog and cats) and I fully expected and understand that there are people that have differences in choice. It's exactly the same with horses.

LCGSDmama was looking for advice, I personally know that I was very Happy with Hoytt, and told her so from my first hand experience with them. If you aren't then you aren't, she is simply looking in to her options.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
WOW... Ok... I got to sleep for a few hours, and this happens!

MicDobe: I'm getting a Male.. I think bringing a female in here with my female rott would be suicide(sp?). My male is prefectly FINE with other males. its my female that isnt OK with Other females.

Yes, I have a Schutzhund group near me. BUT since its just me and the trainers(I live in the boonies) and they breed GSD's. that I doubt they would know any good working lines Dobermans. Another club, thats 3 hrs away from me, has a doberman breeder, but I cannot stand the breeder... she is... hmm.. a bitch to be nice.

Okie, I'll look for another breeder...
 
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