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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Greetings Everyone,

My Wife and I went to a breeder last night to meet an older puppy that was still on site. I won't identify the breeder at this time as I have seen several posts on these forums mentioning this breeder, some pro and some con.

Several questions were raised.

1. In a breeder scenario, are studs typically segregated, and is it normal behavior for two breeding males to want to fight each other when there are females around ?

2. Is it normal for the sire of a litter to not get along with his older puppies? The pup we looked at is 7 months old, almost 8. When their father was out in the yard, the two remaining males weren't allowed out of their pens.

Breed specific questions:

Reading on the AKC website, it mentions white coloration being disqualified with the exception of a patch under 1/2 square inch on the chest being permissible . Our current Dobe, whom we rescued has this little patch. The pup we looked at had white hair growing out of his ear from the docked side. He also had a small patch on his head which appears to be inherited from his father. It looks like someone hit him with a paint brush dipped in white, not very pronounced, but definitely noticeable against all of his black. We are seeking a family pet, so the white really doesn't bother us, except for the fact that they are being represented as pure pedigree European dogs. The boy seemed to have a nice temperament from the 1.5 hours we spent with him, but we are a little concerned with the knowledge that he hasn't lived in a house yet. Housebreaking could be an issue.

Our biggest concern was a growth between his toes I noticed. The breeder is going to have their Vet look at it, but a 7 month old shouldn't have growths already should it? There's also a small growth which could be a skin tag under his front right leg. ( in the "armpit" )

Any advice ?

Thanks in advance.
.
 

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The male on male aggression has already been addressed but more than that mating dogs can tend to be more aggressive to other males.

There are red flags but not regarding the males being kept separate.

Puppy not living in the house yet??? OUCH

The white on the head could be from an injury or tooth from a littermate. When a dog has an injury it can cause the hair to come back in white.

Why did the breeder not notice the lump on the foot??

Did you see actual registration papers??? If you have read both good and bad I would do some double checking just to be safe. Was there any health testing on the parents??? At least a minimum Vwd, OFA, Thyroid??? PDK4 would also be nice as a very minimum.

You might want to post the breeder to get more input but It is not sounding good.
 

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Sea Hag
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Greetings Everyone,

My Wife and I went to a breeder last night to meet an older puppy that was still on site. I won't identify the breeder at this time as I have seen several posts on these forums mentioning this breeder, some pro and some con.

Several questions were raised.

1. In a breeder scenario, are studs typically segregated, and is it normal behavior for two breeding males to want to fight each other when there are females around ?

2. Is it normal for the sire of a litter to not get along with his older puppies? The pup we looked at is 7 months old, almost 8. When their father was out in the yard, the two remaining males weren't allowed out of their pens.

Breed specific questions:

Reading on the AKC website, it mentions white coloration being disqualified with the exception of a patch under 1/2 square inch on the chest being permissible . Our current Dobe, whom we rescued has this little patch. The pup we looked at had white hair growing out of his ear from the docked side. He also had a small patch on his head which appears to be inherited from his father. It looks like someone hit him with a paint brush dipped in white, not very pronounced, but definitely noticeable against all of his black. We are seeking a family pet, so the white really doesn't bother us, except for the fact that they are being represented as pure pedigree European dogs. The boy seemed to have a nice temperament from the 1.5 hours we spent with him, but we are a little concerned with the knowledge that he hasn't lived in a house yet. Housebreaking could be an issue.

Our biggest concern was a growth between his toes I noticed. The breeder is going to have their Vet look at it, but a 7 month old shouldn't have growths already should it? There's also a small growth which could be a skin tag under his front right leg. ( in the "armpit" )

Any advice ?

Thanks in advance.
.
A white spot greater than 1/2 square IS NOT a disqualification. Larger than that is considered a fault, and it would be penalized to the extent of the deviation. The larger the white spot, the more it would be penalized. But the only disqualifications that exist in our breed standard involve dogs not of an allowed color, in the mouth (more than 4 missing teeth and overshot/undershot bites), and temperament.

White spots on the chest are pretty common. A lot of the time they'll disappear by 8 weeks of age or so, but also a lot of time they do not. This has nothing to do with whether the dog is purebred.

The puppy could have something like a foxtail that's worked between it's toes. Or an interdigital cyst. Nothing abnormal about that.

While it's possible to housebreak a dog at any age, I really would be hesitant to buy a dog who's lived in a kennel for the first 7 months of it's life. I'd be concerned about how much socialization the dog has received.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks for the input . We never got into paperwork as I slowed everything down when I found the growth. The breeder's website listed their health testing, and in person was reiterated, the parents have both been tested for vWD, hips, cardio and one other which I can't recall ATM... The sire has the same white blaze on his head almost the same identical spot, he is listed as a champion of European bloodlines. I am a little ignorant on the Euro Dobes. ( not proclaiming to be an expert in American Dobes either ) is it a normal thing for a European Dog to have any White on them? Again, we are looking for a companion, but if I am going to pay Pedigree prices ( at least what I think is a pedigree price, asking $1600 discounted from the 2k the newest litter on site is going to sell for) I want to be sure of what I am purchasing.

My Wife and daughter fell in love with this boy, I just don't want any issues down the road. We ignored red flags 10 years ago when we fell in love with a Bloodhound that turned out to have really poor temperament due to bad breeding. I would rather be overly cautious now than to ignore anything that has a possibility of being an issue.

Thanks again for helping out.
 

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Welcome to DT and thanks for doing your research!

To me the biggest flag would be that the puppies weren't raised living in the house. That makes it sound like a commercial breeding operation. The ideal breeder raises all of their puppies as family members in the home. If you're looking for an older puppy specifically to avoid the younger housebreaking stage, you're much better off to find one that is already used to living in a house, with people around on a consistent basis. If the dogs are living in a kennel in the backyard, you don't know how much socialization they've had either(exposure to many different sights, sounds, people and dogs - not including the other dogs that the breeder owns), which is really important in the first year of life.

Also the words "pure pedigree" don't really mean much, other than that both parents are registered, and thus the puppies are eligible to be registered. It doesn't mean that they come from a good pedigree, and it doesn't say anything about their conformation, temperament or health. The only way to know those things are to look at the health testing of the actual dam and sire, and whether or not they have received titles in any competition venues such as conformation, behaviour, agility, etc.

Good luck in your search!
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
A white spot greater than 1/2 square IS NOT a disqualification. Larger than that is considered a fault, and it would be penalized to the extent of the deviation. The larger the white spot, the more it would be penalized. But the only disqualifications that exist in our breed standard involve dogs not of an allowed color, in the mouth (more than 4 missing teeth and overshot/undershot bites), and temperament.

White spots on the chest are pretty common. A lot of the time they'll disappear by 8 weeks of age or so, but also a lot of time they do not. This has nothing to do with whether the dog is purebred.

The puppy could have something like a foxtail that's worked between it's toes. Or an interdigital cyst. Nothing abnormal about that.

While it's possible to housebreak a dog at any age, I really would be hesitant to buy a dog who's lived in a kennel for the first 7 months of it's life. I'd be concerned about how much socialization the dog has received.
Thanks for the clarification. I was reading the AKC site on a mobile phone last night when we went for some dinner, was hard to read and I was dead tired. I'm gathering that some of you are in fact breeders. Does a white patch on the head indicate anything other than a genetic anomaly? At a Pet fair last Winter I overheard a conversation where a breeder indicated that white hair on a Dobe shows inferior genes and bloodline.
 

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I would skip this one. You really shouldnt have ANY doubts about a puppy your about to purchase. Plus a doberman puppy raised in a pen for the first 8 months of its life screams NO. The white blaze, why are they even breeding that male? He would have to be outstanding in every other aspect. Does he have AKC papers and did you SEE copies of the health tests. In the future, it might be a good idea not to take wife and child to see pups till YOU are sure of the purchase.:) Cant believe I forgot to ask, is the sire titled in conformation or a working title?
 

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Doberman Slave
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And a euro dog that has white to that extent is no way titled, at least in Europe. Maybe a iabca title that you pay for.
However, like others, I would be VERY concerned with a puppy who was raised in a kennel. He is going to have issues, guaranteed. If your daughter is very young, I wouldn't do it. He may seem fine and probably very sweet at the breeders place, these types of dogs are generally that way in their own environment which they are comfortable in, but when you take him out of that environment and into the "real" world, watch out. When he hits about 2 years old, watch out. That is what I would be researching if I were you, lack of early socialization. Especially in a male Doberman.
 

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I am going to echo what others have said here. I would pass on this puppy. You are going to really fight an uphill battle for the house manners from a male puppy that is already so grown. Not only house training, but dogs that are raised in a kennel can pick up a lot of bad habits that are tough to break.

And while a few white hairs can be from a scrum wherer there was a scab, a while patch on the head is uncommon enough that it would raise eyebrows for me.
 

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I keep my intact males separated and I do not let them play with my puppies either. I would never let my intact male out with my intact 6 month old puppy. That is just commonsense.

I don't see anything to raise a red flag about with the fact they kept their boys separate. Just search this form and you will see many threads on same sex aggression, and why not to own two males.

I'd be concerned about the socialization of the puppy at that age. That would be my biggest worry.
 

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At 7 months with no socialization or house manners there is no way to evaluate the temperament enough to make me feel safe to bring into a home with children. And now another litter??? Is it outside also???
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I'd definitely pass on this breeder. Where are the dogs living if they are not in the house? In a barn? Sounds more like a euro greeder.

Did the dogs have hips done and posted on OFA? You can check here: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

Yes, the sire had testing. Still searching on the dam. The pups are in a barn with outside attached kennels, and pass thru doors. By posting the results, I realize I'm letting the cat out of the bad so to speak, as to who the breeder is. The reason I wanted to keep the breeder masked initially is to get honest opinions without a pre-determined bias built into the responses. I thank you all so far for the honesty. Definitely have some discussions ahead with my wife.

This isn't the breeder's web page, but does show a good view of the white on his ear, the second picture gives a decent view. Doberman Pinscher Puppies for Sale: Kiaser
 

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sufferin succotash
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ah yes, Thundervalley.


Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

Yes, the sire had testing. Still searching on the dam. The pups are in a barn with outside attached kennels, and pass thru doors. By posting the results, I realize I'm letting the cat out of the bad so to speak, as to who the breeder is. The reason I wanted to keep the breeder masked initially is to get honest opinions without a pre-determined bias built into the responses. I thank you all so far for the honesty. Definitely have some discussions ahead with my wife.

This isn't the breeder's web page, but does show a good view of the white on his ear, the second picture gives a decent view. Doberman Pinscher Puppies for Sale: Kiaser
 

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Holier Than Now
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You mention you had a bad experience with a Bloodhound pup that turned out to have a bad temperament.

I would personally be way more focused on this pup's temperament and socialization, rather than worrying over cosmetic things like a white patch.

Kennel dogs can very well end up with many behavioral vices, just as horses kept stalled all the time do.

When that lifestyle has been all they know from puppyhood, it can be very, very difficult, if not impossible, to overcome.

If you at this point are still even remotely considering this puppy, ask to see him out in various settings, a farm/feed store, a park, heck, just take him for a walk off the property.

I'm betting you'll see troublesome behaviors, esp. if you are good at reading "dog language."

I guess ultimately, it all depends on whether you want a big project, or a great pet.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
No, we aren't looking for a Euro specifically, just a solid male Dobe companion. I am in WI, in case my cryptic location wasn't able to be deciphered. :D I might be stubborn or naive, but I really don't believe in buying anything sight unseen, especially a pup / dog, so any breeders would need to be within driving distance.
 
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