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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello Doberman Lovers, mind me but this is a bit of a long story.
I want to ask some things to the communiy. I am having a hard time with all this, I dont see my boy growing and I am concerned. He is from SA lines. I know the answer is wait and see but I need to vent.

Growth History:
  • Since puppyhood he had ALWAYS been a picky eater, he learned to eat when he saw other dogs eating kibble about 4 month old. So maybe his first months he was a bit underweight and IDK if maybe malnourished? He wasn't a skeleton though.
  • Up to 6 months he was at a good hight, maybe a bit skinny still and had no tight muscle but looked like a promising prospect.
  • From 6 to 8 months he had health issues, bloody diharrea, vomiting, elevated liver enzymes, possible giardda, looked like a skeleton and had tremors at night. I thought he was going to die. They told me it could be a LIVER SHUNT. Those two months he didn't grow at all, in fact he lost weight and had a terrible roached back.
- From 8 to 9 months we started all his treatments and grew 1 inch + 11 pounds in a month. Now he had just turned 9 mo and he is 26.5 inches and 76lb.


Diagnosis: unknown + VET checks:

  • Vaccines all done in time + regular deworming.
  • Fecal test negative.
  • PEI bloodtest came up normal.
  • Ultrasound and Doppler done: Liver Shunt negative. Organs are okay.
  • We went to a reputable Traumatologist and said all his bones are okay, that he will grow maybe a bit but he also isn't an expert on the Doberman breed so who knows. He suggested to take an X ray of elbows and hips if I was too concerned.
  • Reputable GI suggested possible hepatopathy so he put him on metronidazole for a month, I took the liberty to stop the treatment because I am a bit hypochondriac and sense it wasn't doing any good to his gut. He have already had 3 weeks of antibiotics for Giardda and his stool was loose. Plus he went into vacations and never answer back.
  • Went to another vet: started with vitamins, probiotics, GI enzymes, Pancreatic Enzymes, GI kibble, and now he has normal stools (they aren't always the same but vet said they were within the range of normal stools FINNALY).
  • We also had another bloodwork done and his ALT levels are better ( ALT: 1300 a month before, now 353 UL).
- Right now I have realized I had never had a thyroid pannel done by any vet. Do you think I should get him tested ASAP in case he needs medicine and that is messing up with his growth?


It is a bit disappointing to me because I wanted a tall dog within the standard. I waited 2 years for him. On his pedigree all male dogs are about 27.5-28 inches and his father is a bit over the height limit. From his mother side they are average size. He has Novak de Akido San as sire, Thor de Akido San and Elvys de Las Armonias as grandparents and another important dogs in Argentina like Trotyl de Black Shadow, Iñaqui de Black Shadow. Females are also from showing line.
Everyone here told me he was going to be TALL like his father. He wasn't purchased for showing but as he started to grow he looked like a good prospect so I thought I could start a new hobby.

His Handler knows his cousins, father, grandfather etc.. he shows this line. When he was ill he told me he wasn't looking good at all and didn't wanted to show him until he looked better or if he ever looked better. Now he told me a few times dont to worry, he says the dog is okay now, that he still have time to go upwards. Should I believe and wait?

His breeders told me he is a bit petite for his age based on his genetics but that I have to give him time. His brother from the first litter (the one they kept) was more or less the same at this age and then he grew.
Another breeder told me dont to expect to him to grow any taller..

Sincerely I dont believe he will grow upwards any more.. what do you guys think? Is it possible a growth sprout at this point? I look at his teeth and hey are small.. does that mean anything?

Today I stack him (as I could) and for me it looks almost like a finished dog. It looks like his grandparent who is a bit petite. I ll show you some pictures at the end.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Another stack from yesterday, he looks a bit chubby but it was right after eating and drinking. I am 1 meter and 22 inches tall.. so maybe he looks tall but NO. For me he looks like a done dog.

Dog Carnivore Dog breed Fawn Companion dog


Second photo: His grandparent Elvys who is a bit short. Handler says maybe he will reach the same hight. IDK.......

Working animal Dog breed Liver Fawn Carnivore
 

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I remember you posting about this about a month ago... I really think you need to just relax and let him grow at his own pace. You can't force him to grow into something he can't be - it's out of your hands. His genetics will determine his final height, and it's certainly not out of the question at 9 months that he will grow more. And he will most certainly continue to fill out...he's still just a very young dog.

So many people seem to get so caught up in size, and I truly don't understand it. A Doberman has such PRESENCE - the few inches difference that might exist between dogs can really disappear when it comes down to it. My boy is on the smaller end of the standard, but I regularly have people commenting on how big he is (ha!), or saying, wow! what a dog! He just exudes that Doberman presence, and being another inch taller isn't going to change that.

If your boy's breeders aren't concerned, I would trust them. They know their lines. Try to relax and enjoy your puppy. Time goes far too fast to get focused on such a small thing...believe me, I say this from the perspective of living with my 10 year old right now. Enjoy him.
 

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I am not an expert in confirmation, but he looks like a great specimen and perfectly Doberman. He is within the breed standard, has a shiny coat and, if he is healthy, you are ahead of the game. Have fun with him and let him be who is he meant to be.
 

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I wholeheartedly agree with MeadowCat. No reason to get caught up in height/weight, etc. What you have is a dog who is very clearly a Doberman, and a pretty handsome one at that.
For what it's worth, my male (who was in the DPCA Top Twenty 2 years in a row, and is pretty right on the standard) continued to fill in into his 4th year, and even added just a little height. He is now 6.5 and looks better than ever. But I never tracked his height as he grew. More important to me (with that boy as well as my current show prospect girl puppy) is if they are balanced/square and put together well, do they move well, etc. for show purposes.

Outside of the show ring, the average Joe has no clue if the dog is too tall, short, long, etc. It just isn't something worth your time worrying about, especially given you can't do anything to change it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hello,

Thank you MMcCown and MeadowCat for taking the time to read my post and giving me your honest opinion. I really apricate it.

Yes, I had post about this a month before when some vet misdiagnosed him and told me he had a shunt and could possibly die. That event tigger my OCD and I could not stop thinking about his growth or if he was OK. Or if I was missing something and because of me the dog wouldn't grew like his genetics dictate. Like the thyroid pannel (last night I realiased we missed that).

Breeders and Handler had been by my side knowing I am too anxious and hypochondriac, constant messages, they own a medal. Yeah so they tell me he will mature really slow (like his siblings) and that he is TOO young to reach his final height. To chill out and let him be. The same things you people tell me.

To MeadowCat: I understand what you say about presence, on the streets people tell me fantastic things.. or cross the street 😂

I will try to do my best to came out of this spiral. Thanks again
 

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I've raised a lot of male Doberman puppies--the is no cut and dried rate at which they grow--sometimes it varies widely even from very similar breeding.

MeadowCat, M&M and Kristen have all said just about what I said when you were worrying about his health (and size and weight) when he was younger--and am going to tell you again. Relax--he's only a puppy--he is not through growing and even if he was he would still be within the normal size for a male. Even a couple of my males who put on most of their height early still grew at least 1/2 an inch after they were a year and some of my slower growing males put on a full inch after they were 9 months.

And the males fill out in their 2nd and 3rd years and even beyond. You are trying to do too much comparing by looking at the pictures of a grandsire who is a mature and in his prime--there is no comparison between a growing puppy and a mature adult.

About his health--you vet can tell you or should have told you that liver values can fluctuate wildly because of things that have no actual relationship to the health of the liver--but I'm glad you finally have ironed out most of your concerns about his general health. Picky eating can be the result of a very smart Doberman training an owner to give them what they want not necessarily what they should have. But even his weight looks fairly appropriate for a growing puppy.

Thyroid--any time I'm having a blood panel done I make sure that it's one that will have at least a T4 for system thyroid and unless that comes up very low I don't do much about testing for thyroid until the dog is 2 years--then I'll have a full panel done and in the states I have it sent to Michigan State University--their vet school is still the gold standard here. I've hear from other people in other countries that they sometimes send blood sample to MSU for testing--I know you are in--um Argentina? But your vets probably know if that's necessary or not.

I think if your breeder isn't worried about the dogs size at this point and the handler says he's fine--he probably is fine--and your handler obviously know when he didn't look fine and didn't hesitate to tell you that.

By the way--you say you think he looks like a finished dog? I don't--I think he looks like what he is--a very nice puppy who has a long way to go as far as "finished" goes--I think he's probably going to grow somewhat taller and will definitely fill out and that just plain takes time. He is what he is--a well bred (I know and have seen a fair number of relative from his pedigree) puppy with quite a lot of promise as a show prospect.

Listen to his breeders and the handler--they are probably the people who would know best what to expect.

Good luck with him--I'm looking forward to seeing more pictures of him as he grows.

dobebug
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hello Kristen C,

Outside of the show ring, the average Joe has no clue if the dog is too tall, short, long, etc. It just isn't something worth your time worrying about, especially given you can't do anything to change it.
[/QUOTE]

Hahah you made me laugh. Yeah, you are right. When we go out, people are like wow OR super scared. They dont doubt he is a Dobermann.
-------------------------------------------
For what it's worth, my male (who was in the DPCA Top Twenty 2 years in a row, and is pretty right on the standard) continued to fill in into his 4th year, and even added just a little height.
[/QUOTE]

Who is your handsome boy? I like having shared experience from people who actually has dobes, not random internet information.. so thank you. The breeder told me his dad also added a little extra height when he was about 2 and a half years old.

After a month of doing a lot of bloodworks etc I know my dog is healthy and had in fact grown 😅 I had also never measured a dog until this last month. And of course I went meassuring him every 2 days.. crazy woman.

In regards to his conformation thank you for your comments. I like how he is turning up, I gotta work on this fixated idea of him being extra tall. You are right, it is more important to have harmony. Only time will tell, meanwhile I will keep him healthy and I will focus more on obedience than conformation to relax a bit.
 

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Good advice given above. As long as he's at a healthy trim, don't sweat it!

Our Neo is still only 67 lbs. at 17 mos. but is 26.5" height. He just hasn't filled out girth-wise in the chest like our previous male Dobe, Spock, who was 82 lbs. at this point, eventually 85 lbs. at 2 y/o. I think Neo might settle out around 70 lbs. at 2 y/o.

Question- Did you see your puppy with littermates at around 8 weeks? Neo was a runt when we went to get matched with him. I'm glad as we are getting up in age ourselves, so he's easier to pickup if necessary and he loves to be a lap dog! I know experienced breeders say runt's don't always turn out small, but I think in our case it's will be true.

Neo seems stronger than our prevous Dobe, even though in a smaller package and definitely a higher energy boy!
That's why I call the little guy, "Joe Pesci, Jr." 😁

"Your Next !" Neo - Green Runt alongside Gray Littermate Brother (7.5 weeks Job Interview Day)
Dog Liver Gesture Carnivore Ear



Runt Neo Green Next to Purple Show Girl (7.5 weeks)
Brown Dog Carnivore Dog breed Liver




Neo (a.k.a. Joe Pesci, Jr.) 17 mos. - 67 lbs. x 26.5" Yesterday
Plant Tree Working animal Dog breed Collar
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Hi spocksdad,

First I wanna day Neo is a cutepie, and as you say, it is more convenient for you. I am glad your breeder did a good job matching him with you. And thanks for sharing photos of him :love:

As regards to Hans, he was the biggest of the litter, I did saw them. Breeders chose him because of his conformation and because he looked similar to his brother from the previous litter (the one they kept). Also, I wanted a calm dog and he was the best choice. He has never destroyed anything at the house and is able to free roam, not as my female dobe who is older but has to be crated.
She is super hyper and extremely obedient and they do match well together. He teches her to be calmer and she teaches him obedience. They copy each others behavior. Plus he is submissive towards her. So I am happy they matched him with me.

I am worried he hasn't had a good development in those crucial 6 to 8 months cause of his health issue. And when he was little he was such a picky eater, maybe he wasn't in a good shape and that affected him in some way.
 

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Well, at this point, whether or not he was a picky eater or in bad health at some point, that's all in the past. All you can do now is forge ahead, with good diet, exercise, training, keeping up with any health concerns you have...he'll grow to the size and shape he was meant to be.

The past is the past; the future is the future. You can't do anything about his past. You've got a good plan to move forward into the future from where you are now. There's not much more you can do.

So now, your job is to love him as he is, and to continue to teach him manners, give him mental and physical stimulation and help him develop a personality you can live with LOL.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I've raised a lot of male Doberman puppies--the is no cut and dried rate at which they grow--sometimes it varies widely even from very similar breeding.

MeadowCat, M&M and Kristen have all said just about what I said when you were worrying about his health (and size and weight) when he was younger--and am going to tell you again. Relax--he's only a puppy--he is not through growing and even if he was he would still be within the normal size for a male. Even a couple of my males who put on most of their height early still grew at least 1/2 an inch after they were a year and some of my slower growing males put on a full inch after they were 9 months.

And the males fill out in their 2nd and 3rd years and even beyond. You are trying to do too much comparing by looking at the pictures of a grandsire who is a mature and in his prime--there is no comparison between a growing puppy and a mature adult.

About his health--you vet can tell you or should have told you that liver values can fluctuate wildly because of things that have no actual relationship to the health of the liver--but I'm glad you finally have ironed out most of your concerns


Hello dobebug,

You have always so much information and knowledge, you are really helpful.

Even a couple of my males who put on most of their height early still grew at least 1/2 an inch after they were a year and some of my slower growing males put on a full inch after they were 9 months.
This gives me peace of mind, If he put one more inch I won't lie that will be glad.
I think I relate this whole issue to my female dobe development, she is under the standard but I purchase her as pet quality. Altought her pedigree is more or less aceptable, she has Philmar Sobe Monster and Dabney's Phenomenon.. IDK if they ar in fact good studs. But certainly she isn't well bred.


I think if your breeder isn't worried about the dogs size at this point and the handler says he's fine--he probably is fine--and your handler obviously know when he didn't look fine and didn't hesitate to tell you that.
[/QUOTE]

My handler says I am traumatized by her o_O and that Hans will be done by the age of 3 year old based on his line. Next Tuesday I will see him and certainly will discuss the issue.. AGAIN. Once he made ir very clear dont to tag him in photos if the dog isn't in a good shape cause he looked really bad and ill. He is a saint for addressing all my doubts. I should certainly trust him more.
And also the breeders. They haven't ever ignored my worries and messages.

In regard to his health, vets really scared me about the liver not working well, but thankfully it was a wrong hypothesis. Thyroid: I will take him tomorrow to the vet to finish the investigation 😬 There are a few good labs and she sends the samples to one of them. I estimate having the result for next week.

I think I compare him to finished dogs because I am anxious. It is like I can't imagine him gettin bigger, His chest looks it has already developed, his toes dont look big to me.. Well I had never had a male dobe so this is also new to me also. I hope he grows an inch more at least. And in his pedigree the dogs are tall.. so that was what I was expecting.
I am glad you think he is a well bred dog.

Thank you very much dobebug.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
To dobebug,

I am constantly comparing him to her, cause bitches here have his size not hers.
She is exactly 2 years old 24 inches and 63 pounds, small size. And him at 8 an a half months in the photo. Here in Argentina you go to shows and there are a lot who look much bigger, I mean not fat, just like MORE everything. There is a show in two weeks, I will go and see.


Dog Plant Dog breed Carnivore Fawn
 

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I don't have much experience with dobermans, but I can share my dog is also a picky eater and was 27.5" at 9 months and now at 13 months he is 28", so he grew a little bit. I think there is a good chance your dog will continue to grow more, maybe another inch. I noticed with my dog is growing taller in the front, but not much in the back legs, so now he doesn't look so high in the rear.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I don't have much experience with dobermans, but I can share my dog is also a picky eater and was 27.5" at 9 months and now at 13 months he is 28", so he grew a little bit. I think there is a good chance your dog will continue to grow more, maybe another inch. I noticed with my dog is growing taller in the front, but not much in the back legs, so now he doesn't look so high in the rear.

Denu, what breed do you have?

Well if he grows and inch more it will be ideal.
He was such a picky eater, he learned to eat when I took him to my aunts house and saw two weimaraners and a beagle eating. And now my female is in heat and he dosent eat either. So I have to do meatballs of kibble and pass it down his trought. Terrible.

Thank for sharing.
 

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As someone who also tends to obsess over health and weight and height, simply because of my experience with my last dog, I understand where you are coming from. I still freak out about Arrow once in a while, but have gotten peace of mind from people on here and her breeder saying that she won't be fully mature till three. Her line is just slower growing for whatever reason. She's average size for a female from the parents, and doesn't look very big to me but she certainly drives everyone away 😅 I tend to get a very respectful, oh what a beautiful dog!!! Or, why would you own such a monster?! Those things kill people! Only gotten one, that dog's gonna kill you some day so far lol. At this point I've gotten myself to calm down a lot on things by talking myself down on stuff like freaking out about minor things and her weight, I took her in to the vet a few times within a few weeks to check her weight and seeing she was steadily gaining helped a lot with calming down. She's always been a picky picky eater and having finally found something that works, she eats good. So just hang in there! I bug people for encouragement and stuff too. Outside eyes help a lot. Your pupper looks like a stunner already, and good size to me, but Ive only seen one fit male doberman, and he wasn't the best example for size because he was massive. The others have been females, and I'm short so dogs can .
look taller to me than other people too.
 
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