Dobe's aren't really dog park dogs when they get older anyway... usually play too rough. It's best, at this age, to arrange play dates with dogs you're more familiar of and in a more easily controlled setting.

I had a client who had a pom they used to take to the dog park until the day a young pit snapped her neck. I haven't been back to the park since... though I don't think Whiskey would do well in one as a mature adult anyway.

 

i don't like dog parks. i absolutely agree with Whiskey's suggestion of play dates. they work out much better for us.

 

A third to what Whiskey and Falnfenix say. I don't personally take my dogs to the dog park. I arrange playdates with friends whose dogs I know and trust. Or I find enclosed places I can take my dogs to run, like tennis courts or enclosed ball fields.

There is too much risk from other dogs and what they might do and clueless owners who don't keep an eye on their dogs.

 

It is your responsibility, in building your pup's confidence, to set her up for success with safe playdates and interactions.

Once you've shown her she can't trust you to protect her from bullying and inappropriate actions from other dogs, you've broken part of your bond with her.

You've let her be in situations where she has become "really upset" and is clearly frantic and terrified by your description of her body language and reactions--ask yourself how THAT is building her confidence?

You don't let a four-year old loose with a bunch of hoody teenagers and say "work it out," you know?

I'm not trying to be harsh on you, just jog you into really thinking about this.

 

Even though I took care of the situation and we calmed down and left, when you say broken a bond with her I can't stop thinking about it. Did everything just change and it won't be the same or can I just let it go and continue to do the right things and grow together strong again?

 

I took my Boxer to the local dog park about 3 times before i realized that most dog owners are ignorant. They let their dogs and kids run a muck while they chit chat with other people who don't care what their animals do. I agree with everyone on the playdate idea. Dog parks are the worst

 

Thanks for the fast response. It just pissed me off seeing how the owner didn't even bat an eye to correct. I don't have many friends with dogs that lead by example, I was thinking about a beginners obedience class. If it is that unpredictable I would say our dog park days are over.

 

No worries, that is why I came to this forum in question. Our 'working it out' was having her join me in another area of the park and sitting while I harnessed her. I surely want her to trust me as much as I will in her. I really did think it out. Just looking for more suggestions. I appreciate all the input. I posted less than 15 mins of coming home after the park. It just REALLY got to me seeing how it was there. Thankfully this was the first time shes ever gotten that upset. I screwed up but I am doing my best to find out what works and what doesn't. First time doberman owner and I am learning a lot.

 

No worries, that is why I came to this forum in question. Our 'working it out' was having her join me in another area of the park and sitting while I harnessed her. I surely want her to trust me as much as I will in her. I really did think it out. Just looking for more suggestions. I appreciate all the input. I posted less than 15 mins of coming home after the park. It just REALLY got to me seeing how it was there.

I'm glad you have a new plan.

I think class is a great way to get started--lots of opportunities for guided, supervised socialization.

It is pretty much human error, the problems with dog parks--most of the handlers are clueless, ignorant, and vastly lazy, in my experience.

They will sit there texting or surfing on their smartphones, or chatting, drinking, smoking, with other folks, and never even know where in the park their dog is, or what it's doing.

Then there are the ones whose dogs clearly aren't behaving appropriately or safely, and they defend their dog's actions or make excuses, even get belligerent with the handler of the innocent party.

It's really not worth all that risk, danger, and aggravation.

 

Join a training club and take a puppy class. Ask the other puppy owners if they'd like a play date. You could also take your puppy to an agility trial and just walk her around. At every trial I see young puppies being exposed to lots of things like noise, other dogs, smells and people.

Dog parks are not a good place to take your dog. Too many idiots.....two legged and four legged.

 

Swagger goes to the park all the time. The trick is to try various ones at various times. Find the best one for you. We found one that has the same dogs everyday, owners are great about monitoring their dogs, and we all work together to make sure we help out. I agree though for hte most part dog parks can be bad if you are not diligent.

Also to say dobermans are not dog park dogs is not really accurate. It all goes with how well your dog it trained, the temperment, etc. So many people have fallen in love with the breed after their dogs play with Swagger and see how sweet he is.

 

You know... Whiskey was awesome in the dog park with mostly dogs we knew until just after he turned twoish... then he would sometimes get snippy and it progressed to the point that we felt we needed to remove him from that situation period. He does ok with a single dog play/park date but no more then that. He gets overly excited and then he'll start stuff with other males.

 

I avoid dog parks as well. I don't trust other people's judgement on their dogs 'friendlyness'. It only takes a fraction of a second for someones dog to bite and do damage, especially if your pup is only 4 months old! She relies on you to protect her, and if that means no dog parks, just avoid them.

Do what is suggested above - have scheduled play dates with dogs you know and trust

 

I would never trust someone elses judgment with their random dog and my own. I do not agree with dog parks at all. Its better to go to a trainer and have a supervised puppy class or someone you know with a well socialized/behaved dog/puppy. If someone is not controlling the pack other dominant puppies/ dogs will easily take over and that might set you back as far as the training you wanted to do with your pup. To build their confidence I would suggest to find a trainer that specifically deals with behavioral stuff. Light treadmilling and light agility can really build a puppies confidence at a young age. Good luck!

 

I too am one of those folks who avoids the dog park like a plague! There are two sections, one for the small dogs, one for the big dogs and sadly there are too many dogs in the big dog area that are bullies and not very well trained.

We have play dates as well-we play with a little bijon believe it or not! He keeps up really well with my two girls. And also two labs. Yesterday we had both of mine, the wee bijon and the two labs all playing together. And who was the boss? Why the little bijon of course!!

 

NOT a fan of dog parks because too many people use them as a substitute for proper exercise instead of the social reward for having exercised well. Human nature is also to look for the fault in what others do but not see what we do in kind.

Dogs can learn and respond at any age. You change and they will change. If you are always worried about something (even if it is the dog you're worried about) they will react to that until you change it.

Concerned that you haven't brought the other dog you have around to where you'd like them to be in confidence and demeanor. It shouldn't be some other owner did something so we leave the dog as is forever. The older dog also deserves to be calm and confident, not skittish.

The pup will also take cues from the older dog whether you like it or not. You should be working with both dogs to bring them to a calm, confident and well behaved state.

If you don't think you can do it for both dogs I'd get a consult with a well recommended behaviorist to see what it is that you are inadvertently doing that is keeping the dog in a skittish state and what you can do that will bring them out of it. It will help all 3 of you.

Some beginner group classes and play dates are also a good idea.

 

You know, you've had quite a few posts here on DT that leave most readers just shaking their heads. (Did you ever go back to where Megs asked you about your credentials, specifics about your Master's you claim to have in animal behavior, and answer her?)

I find myself more confused than usual, about your comments above.

What do you characterize as "skittish" exactly, about a four month old puppy reacting appropriately to the inappropriate behavior of a strange dog at a dog park?

Or are you only characterizing the OP's older dog as "skittish"?

And if that is the case, I'm sorry but you lost me in the Cesar-esque psycho-babble about the human's state v. the dog's state.

I mean, that kind of talk sounds all Im.Press.Ive.Ly. Pack.Lead.Er.Ish.

But, in practical terms, we don't have nearly enough info to know whether the OP is influencing her older dog to "be skittish," not nearly enough info.

We don't know the dog's background, personality, breeding, training level, none of that, right?

So, best to lose the "blame the owner" stance. Also it smacks of mild fear-mongering to suggest her potential service dog candidate (am I understanding right, OP, that is what you are working towards?) is going to "cue off" the "skittish" older dog.

 

4 months is very young. I started taking Maya to the dog park when she was just under 6 months old. At first she was very timid because she did not have any experience being around other dogs off leash. It took her a while to get comfortable with the entire dog park atmosphere. Dogs running, chasing each other, play wrestling, barking, growling. That's how dogs act. She's been growled at, snapped at, and barked at, countless times. This doesn't stop her from wanting to rush into the park when we get there. She is an extremely brave dog.

Today is a totally different story. I open my car dog and she literally sprints to the gate wanting to rush into the park. She's learned so much since a few months ago. She is much more confident now however she is still a puppy and less than 9 months old. She's been with many older dogs, and bigger dogs. Some male dogs have tried to mount her inside the park and she is extremely resistant and not submissive at all.

The good thing now is that Maya can handle herself around other dogs. She is used to being around other dogs. Bigger dogs, smaller dogs, older dogs, and even younger dogs. Some puppies in the park are younger than her, however most dogs are older. She has a nice temperament. Friendly, energetic and playful.

It's important to pay attention to how the dogs are acting in the park and to also monitor your dog at all times and stay close to her/him while you are in there. I bring water so she can drink when she gets thirsty but many dog parks have hoses to give them water as well. They get very thirsty from all the activity going on in there. Chasing after each other, etc. Remember, if you do not like what's going on inside the park at any given time, you can simply walk out and leave, and then return on another day.

It's good to go at a time when they know some of the other dogs in there. They feel more comfortable when they see some of the other dogs that they already know.

The beginning experience in the dog park can be very hard, as it was for Maya. But it does get better, at least it did for her anyway. Best luck with your puppy.

Maya is a big dog now. She weighs 80 pounds and is not finished growing. I anticipate her to weigh in between 90 and 100 pounds when all is said and done considering her father is enormous and weighs 130.

My Yuki has had all her shots and was cleared to go to our local dog park. We have been there a few times already so she knows the area. This one older pitbull mix entered the area and as soon as they did, he targeted the youngest and most submissive dogs and just bullied them. Yuki was one of those. She yelped to say hey, you're playing too rough!! But he wouldn't let up until I moved my body between them and claimed the space. She was very upset afterwards, but I let her work it out and we left. I am working towards training my doberman as a working dog for my conditions. Will this effect her later down the road? What kinds of things can I do to build up her confidence even more? She's really sweet, I take her out usually everywhere I go. Very well behaved. I want to take her to the dog park again but when another dog is VERY aggressive in play or dominance she pins her ears back and yelps and whines while running away. Of coarse that antagonizes the other dogs prey drive. I have a dog that is very skittish from previous owner abuse but I am trying my best to raise my pup to be brave. We live in a busy and loud world!

 

Maya77, based on those photos, your young puppy is very overweight.

Please look into upping her fitness level and trimming her down--Dobermans are meant to be a lean, fit, very athletic breed, NOT a huge stocky Molosser breed type, and certainly NOT to weigh 130 pounds, as you claim her sire weighs.

She will have joint issues and other health problems related to that excess weight, if you don't take and keep it off of her.

 

This was my first thought as well when I saw Maya77's pictures.

Beautiful dog that would look even more gorgeous if she were fit and healthy

 

Just because he is a European Doberman does not mean he's exempt from the standard? Especially not as a stud dog? The Europeans usually follow the standard set by the FCI

SIZE AND WEIGHT: SIZE Height at the highest point of withers: Males: 68 to 72cms. Bitches: 63 to 68cms. Medium size desirable.

WEIGHT Males ca. 40 to 45 kg. Bitches ca. 32 to 35 kg.

In imperial that would be 26 to 28 inches for the boys, 24 to 26 for the ladies. Weight is 88lb to 99lb for Males and 70lb to 77lb for bitches. If you want to round out, 90 to 100lb for boys, 70 to 80 for ladies. In conformation dogs can be penalized for exceeding or not reach the desired height limits.

Now, a dog that is not in show condition might be 10-15lb over the standard, MAYBE 20 if they have a ridiculous amount of muscle, and still be at a healthy weight but 30lb seems like a lot. As in Molossus sized. Some breeders will let their "European" dobes be overweight to make them look more massive (we mean overweight not obese). I don't know your breeder so I can't pass a judgment on that specific stud dog, but it definitely raises some red flags.

FYI, your puppy doesn't seem badly overweight but she does seem overweight. Chubby maybe. This might not be a concern in other breeds, and if the vets she's seen aren't necessarily familiar with dobes specifically they may not know. But with larger breed dogs it's best to keep them on the lighter side while they're growing because of the long term stress it can cause on their forming skeletal structure. Best be a little underweight than a little over. (Btw this is why Great Dane puppies can be on the ribby side. I'm not saying your girl needs to have her ribs visible, but it's not a bad idea for her to maybe be a little more trim. When she's a grown up she can put on more weight and muscle and not risk long term problems into her old age!)

 

It's sometimes hard to tell in pictures. Sometimes the dogs look bigger in photos than they do in person. Saying that, she gets a tremendous amount of compliments. People stop their cars to say what an amazing looking dog she is. Possibly because she comes from very good bloodlines. Her sire is an international champion.

I can't see her ribs but I can sure feel them when I put my hands on them.

I have seen big dobermans and also smaller dobermans. From what I hear from other people and people who own european dobermans, they generally are large dogs.

Just because he is a European Doberman does not mean he's exempt from the standard? Especially not as a stud dog? The Europeans usually follow the standard set by the FCI



In imperial that would be 26 to 28 inches for the boys, 24 to 26 for the ladies. Weight is 88lb to 99lb for Males and 70lb to 77lb for bitches. If you want to round out, 90 to 100lb for boys, 70 to 80 for ladies. In conformation dogs can be penalized for exceeding or not reach the desired height limits.

Now, a dog that is not in show condition might be 10-15lb over the standard, MAYBE 20 if they have a ridiculous amount of muscle, and still be at a healthy weight but 30lb seems like a lot. As in Molossus sized. Some breeders will let their "European" dobes be overweight to make them look more massive (we mean overweight not obese). I don't know your breeder so I can't pass a judgment on that specific stud dog, but it definitely raises some red flags.

FYI, your puppy doesn't seem badly overweight but she does seem overweight. Chubby maybe. This might not be a concern in other breeds, and if the vets she's seen aren't necessarily familiar with dobes specifically they may not know. But with larger breed dogs it's best to keep them on the lighter side while they're growing because of the long term stress it can cause on their forming skeletal structure. Best be a little underweight than a little over. (Btw this is why Great Dane puppies can be on the ribby side. I'm not saying your girl needs to have her ribs visible, but it's not a bad idea for her to maybe be a little more trim. When she's a grown up she can put on more weight and muscle and not risk long term problems into her old age!)

 

As for what she should look like, this is an excellent thread. http://www.dobermantalk.com/doberman-health/67818-not-fat-doberman.html

 

I'll be one of the odd balls out, I know. I really like the dog park. Tali, also REALLY loves it there.

But.

There are risks. You have to know that going in and make your own call.

I think one large part of "bad parks" is some of them really are, just a small open field with a chain fence. I may be wrong. Theres a few of these in my city, and I avoid them at all costs. Too small, too many dogs in a small area. If your dog and you don't have a lot of room to maneuver/get away from a hazzard - thats a very bad thing.

Theres 3 very good parks in my city. One is only 5-7 minute drive, that I goto every day.

Panamoramic picture of about 1/6th of the area.

The park is huge. Even when busy, tonnes of room.

Size isnt the only problem of course, people/strangers and their unkown dogs are there too. However, size helps you avoid most encounters if you don't get a good vibe from them. The whole "velcro dog" with Tali comes in very nice this way. She will only go about 50-75 feet away from me most times, so if I see a dog i'm unsure of coming towards us, I can go another direction and she will follow.

Of course observation is your best key. Reading other dogs in the distance you've never seen, how they interact with the environment around them - all tools you need to have with you to determine "Maybe i'll go this way instead".

Large packs are a bad idea too, typically 3 dogs is usually the most I want around Tali at once (Assuming those 3 dogs are not part of one pack). If more run over to us, i'll usually start walking away.

As for rough play - Yup tali does that. She's good about doing it with dogs her size or bigger though. Tali's a neck-biter/pinner with some dogs, but she knows when to stop. If another dog whines/crys at all from it - she hops off them. This type of play I usually either inform the other owner when it starts to pick up, or see what their reaction is like. I know a lot of people are not used to seeing their dog pinned down by the neck - so I make sure to stop tali from doing it, inform them, and if they seem reluctant about it, we leave them.

Now, with all that said - Things still can go wrong. I've had 2 dogs storm after tali when she went to go greet them, snapping like hell and not letting the chase off. One time I started moving toward the dog as they did this and the dog charged at me, giving tali time to get away from him. I then calm backed away, not staring at the dog and eventually the dog turned and went back to its owner. The reality is, you have to be ready to do these types of things.

I'm fortunate that the parks I frequent MOSTLY have responsible owners and are interactive with whats happening rather then just standing chatting and loosing focus on the dogs around them. Thats not the case everywhere though.

Best of luck!

 

As for dog parks, we have one here, there are quite a few rules posted, but some of the highlights are: no children under age 11 in the dog runs, no food (human or dog) inside the dog runs, pick up after your dog, and only one dog per owner. I took Ilka to our park on a weekend day, when there were other people there once. When the woman with her dog, her dad's dog (who was leaving loose, runny poops all over the place) and her 3 year old kid broke out the bag of dog treats, we left. I'll take Ilka by herself, or both girls when I can have my husband go with us, but only when there is nobody else there.

 

Maya, did you get her from Kimbertal? If so, that would explain a lot of things.

 

She's still too heavy in those pictures, especially for her age.... She's a 7 in those photos.




If your breeder is in fact kimbertal...congrats that's a glorified mill who has horrible guides they give all their owners on having an obese dog that everyone thinks is just "big and thick and well built"

You obviously don't agree on her weight and I'm not about to get in a kimbertal fight so. I'm out of this thread.

 

My dog is extremely socialized and is good around people and other dogs.

My dog gets fed what could be considered the best dry dog food out there, Orijen.

My dog can handle herself "off leash" around other dogs.

My dog gets over 1 hour of exercise every single day.

Can you say the same for your dog?

The next thing I'm going to hear from you is Orijen is not good food.

Stop being jealous and resentful and worry about your own dog. I've seen your dog in pictures and could easily make a few comments but I have enough class not to. Peace.

 

For me, I can tell she is overweight by looking at where her neck meets her shoulders and at the base of her tail.

Dobermans should never be the size of a Great Dane. 130lbs is not healthy for a medium sized dog. If her sire is an international champion, he most likely received his championship at a young age, before he out grew the standard. If he's in the United States, it's probably because no reputable breeder in Europe would use an oversized dog as a stud when they have access to much more correct dogs, generally speaking. It's common for crappy breeders in the US to swoop up reject breeding dogs from Europe with any sort of title.

This is coming from someone that much prefers the European type too.

 

Maya- Here are some pictures of some euro bitches- euro show line bitches (like your girl is)- at adulthood:

Even at retired weight, the older girl at the top is nowhere near the girth of your puppy. The girl at the bottom is still competing and is kept in peak physical form.

My boy is also 100% Euro- and a male- albiet younger than your girly. This is the weight I much prefer growing puppies to be at. The girls above are his grandmother and mother respectively... and were cleaning his and his brother's ears

Don't think his skinny self doesn't have any muscle! This picture is a bit blurry, but you can see the lines of his muscles popping in this one. I don't exercise him past a block or two walk every day and a TON of free play in the yard, but I also control his intake portions and I make him work for at least one meal per day.

So, as you can see, even Euros in a muscular state are not "round" but still slim and lean with good muscle growth on their shoulders and thighs. Many Euro dogs are shown a little tubby (or a lot tubby), just like American dogs (of various breeds, not just dobes), but they should not be kept at that excess weight!

It's a lot better to keep growing dogs a little lean- it's better on their joints and for their overall health. You don't need a super muscular with tons of bulk on it's butt and shoulders/back but keeping them thinner than your girl's present state is much muuuuch healthier for them in the long run.

 

Very nice looking dogs. I just got back not too long ago from the store and put Maya on the scale. She's just about 80 pounds.

She looks bigger in some of those pictures that were posted previously than she does in person. The vet assistant said she does not look fat at all. I even mentioned it to her and told her several people have said she is very overweight. She started laughing and said it's completely not true. I agreed. You can't JUST go by pictures. Sometimes the angle of the picture makes the dog look bigger than they really are.

Do I want Maya to quickly put on weight? Of course not.

She runs every single day. She's a tall girl. I personally don't think a few pounds over or a few pounds under is a big deal. What I think is more of a big deal is what I listed earlier.

- socializing your dog to be decent around people and other dogs

- feeding your dog a very high quality food

- making sure your dog is getting enough exercise, daily (this does not include walks since daily walks alone are completely insufficient)

- making sure your dog is well trained and can handle themselves off leash

A goal of mine was to have Maya socialized at an early age. That's why I started bringing her to dog parks so she could learn, and she has learned a lot. Maya is a very active puppy with a lot of energy. Yes, she's big. Does bigger mean better? No.

Saying that, I will continue to monitor her weight and make sure she does not get too heavy. I will bring her to the Vet soon and ask their opinion as well. I'll post some pictures in the near future.

 

Maya, the people here are giving you constructive feedback. They have posted wonderful educational info that is consensus from vets, the doberman standard and even helped by providing photos. You don't even seem to be reading the posts. If I were you, I would be thanking people for this feedback as it can help your puppy to be in better overall health. I suggest that you take time to think about your responses before posting.

Edited to add: orijen is an excellent food. The thing that you have to keep in mind is that the grain free high-end foods are more nutrient and calorie dense than other commercial dog foods. The serving size is much lower for this foods.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App

 

So she is from kimbertal then huh? Explains the ranting nonsense about things I never even said or questioned that I'm not even going to justify answering.

Dobermans are a medium size breed.

Again, your dog is fat. Do her joints a favor and think about cutting back the food.



Edit to add..

Nope her grandparents aren't fat (in those pictures) , that's what your dogs waist and tuck should look like.

Why is my dogs pedigree relevant to a weight discussion?