Counting teeth WITHOUT opening the mouth? - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
 
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post #1 of 7 (permalink) Old 05-08-2011, 04:18 PM Thread Starter
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Counting teeth WITHOUT opening the mouth?

I was at a show this weekend (not AKC) and noticed something that disappointed me - but before I say anything about it to people that need to know, I would like some feedback.

Can a judge count teeth (or tell if a dog is missing teeth) by only looking at a closed mouth and lifting lips?

.... or does the mouth have to be open in order to tell if a dog is missing teeth?

(Basically, the judges this weekend weren't counting teeth - they were judging our dobes' mouths by asking to see the bite and then moving on - not giving us time to open the mouth. ONE judge asked one of the other dobe exhibitors to lift her dogs' lips along the side of the muzzle so he could see the rest of the teeth.)

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post #2 of 7 (permalink) Old 05-08-2011, 04:34 PM
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some only check for missing pre molars and insicors by quickly flipping up the lips on each side.

But NO, they cannot tell if there are any missing teeth without opening the mouth up and visually checking/counting them!

unless they are psychic judges!
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post #3 of 7 (permalink) Old 05-08-2011, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sizzledog View Post
I was at a show this weekend (not AKC) and noticed something that disappointed me - but before I say anything about it to people that need to know, I would like some feedback.

Can a judge count teeth (or tell if a dog is missing teeth) by only looking at a closed mouth and lifting lips?

.... or does the mouth have to be open in order to tell if a dog is missing teeth?

(Basically, the judges this weekend weren't counting teeth - they were judging our dobes' mouths by asking to see the bite and then moving on - not giving us time to open the mouth. ONE judge asked one of the other dobe exhibitors to lift her dogs' lips along the side of the muzzle so he could see the rest of the teeth.)
The very back molars are not visible without opening the mouth to look. Many times these teeth are quite small, as well. I don't know anyone who can easily see all the lower incisors either if the mouth is closed.

We have a disqualification in the standard for more than 3 missing teeth and penaties for 1-3 missing. It is a REQUIREMENT for judges to check for these disqualifying/penalizing faults. Shame on the judge for not doing so and shame on the exhibitors for not making a complaint to the AKC/CKC (or whatever show) rep. If exhibitors don't say something how will this get corrected? If one feels a judge is not qualifying for the basic issues in a breed then we as exhibitors have a duty to let the rep know.


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post #4 of 7 (permalink) Old 05-08-2011, 06:11 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StarlaineK9 View Post
The very back molars are not visible without opening the mouth to look. Many times these teeth are quite small, as well. I don't know anyone who can easily see all the lower incisors either if the mouth is closed.

We have a disqualification in the standard for more than 3 missing teeth and penaties for 1-3 missing. It is a REQUIREMENT for judges to check for these disqualifying/penalizing faults. Shame on the judge for not doing so and shame on the exhibitors for not making a complaint to the AKC/CKC (or whatever show) rep. If exhibitors don't say something how will this get corrected? If one feels a judge is not qualifying for the basic issues in a breed then we as exhibitors have a duty to let the rep know.
This just happened today - it was a UKC show (and the UKC standard is 3 missing teeth is a DQ) and usually the UKC judges are on the ball on this sort of thing - not this weekend though. I have to make a complaint about something anyway, so I'll include this as well.

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post #5 of 7 (permalink) Old 05-08-2011, 07:43 PM
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Yes! That happened to Reggie once at an AKC show. The judge was an older guy last name "Greathouse". Karin went to open Reggie's mouth for him, and he gave a dismissive gesture and just kept going over the rest of him. He didn't check any dog's mouths, yet was on the floor watching the down and back.
Maybe some people have X-ray vision? Reggie won that day, and thankfully has all of his teeth. If he didn't have all of his teeth he still would have won and nobody would have known the better.



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post #6 of 7 (permalink) Old 05-08-2011, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sizzledog View Post
This just happened today - it was a UKC show (and the UKC standard is 3 missing teeth is a DQ) and usually the UKC judges are on the ball on this sort of thing - not this weekend though. I have to make a complaint about something anyway, so I'll include this as well.
Good for you for voicing a concern!


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post #7 of 7 (permalink) Old 05-09-2011, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobes&Hounds View Post
Yes! That happened to Reggie once at an AKC show. The judge was an older guy last name "Greathouse". Karin went to open Reggie's mouth for him, and he gave a dismissive gesture and just kept going over the rest of him. He didn't check any dog's mouths, yet was on the floor watching the down and back.
Maybe some people have X-ray vision? Reggie won that day, and thankfully has all of his teeth. If he didn't have all of his teeth he still would have won and nobody would have known the better.
I have found from my years of exhibiting...that SOME judges (esp men) will check out the "butts" on the girl handlers more thoroughly than the teeth on the dogs..!! LOL
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