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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-07-2007, 08:08 PM Thread Starter
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American vs. euro

What are the main differences between a euro and an american bred dobe. Seems at though the euro's are a bit bigger? Americans a bit more refined?
Thanks,
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-07-2007, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheezbusy View Post
What are the main differences between a euro and an american bred dobe. Seems at though the euro's are a bit bigger? Americans a bit more refined?
Thanks,
Lisa
there are already several threads about this topic - if you do a search, you should find them. It is a very touchy subject for a lot of us.

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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-07-2007, 10:33 PM Thread Starter
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ty

thanks,
I dont want to bring up any touchy subjects!



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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-07-2007, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by sheezbusy View Post
thanks,
I dont want to bring up any touchy subjects!
Don't be sorry! It is a valid question and one that gets asked about a lot. I just want to point out that it is a much discussed topic - especially by newcomers to the breed. You can search and read up on the subject some - if you have more questions, you can ask them with more background.

I don't want to discourage anyone from asking questions - it is how we learn!

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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-08-2007, 12:08 AM
 
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Darn it, I would like to see this topic discussed. Could someone tell me where to find these threads? I'm still new to this forum stuff I have no idea where to look. I don't see why it can not be discussed again. And there should be no need for anyone feeling touchy. We all win as we pick the best breed in the world. Does it matter which side of the world?
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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-08-2007, 12:18 AM
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Use the search link. Go to the forum index and look around the top of the page. You will see it. I personally won't touch this question for the reason Velma stated.

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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-08-2007, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandysBlackRoses View Post
Darn it, I would like to see this topic discussed. Could someone tell me where to find these threads? I'm still new to this forum stuff I have no idea where to look. I don't see why it can not be discussed again. And there should be no need for anyone feeling touchy. We all win as we pick the best breed in the world. Does it matter which side of the world?
I agree its a shame it can`t be discussed but it is a hot subject. Maybe someday. I have searched on my own and know all I need to know. It just comes down to two different (strong opinons). 12-15 years ago you wouldn`t even know there was such a division. Internet educates us all. Google, search and you will find.
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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-08-2007, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by MandysBlackRoses View Post
I don't see why it can not be discussed again. And there should be no need for anyone feeling touchy. We all win as we pick the best breed in the world. Does it matter which side of the world?
If it were only that simple! There are a lot of strong opinions and more than a bit of intolerance on both sides of the issue. A lot of generalizations are made, frequently by people who don't have enough knowledge and experience to make them...this almost inevitably leads to insulting comments getting thrown around and people losing their tempers. In the end, these "discussions" wind up widening the chasm, polarizing people more than they might already be.

While the subject might be new to some of you, for many of us it's been done to death. It's just gotten boring.



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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-08-2007, 11:26 AM Thread Starter
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For years I have shown and bred horses. Several breeds but the last was American Quarter Horse. In fact I had a two year old mare that placed 8th in the 2yr old western snaffle bit futurity (out of over 350). I know that it takes a while to "break into" a show ring. I myself chose to hire two professional trainers/handlers. They have the expertise and the name.
With Quarter Horses, you either have a performance horse or a halter horse. Very seldom do you have a horse that does both. I just thought that it would be similar to American vs Euro. They each have their specialty?

Seems as though American bred dobes are bred more for a refined show look, and the Euro's I have seen are bred more for size for schutzhund. Not that Euro's and Americans don't cross that line, I'm sure they do.

Either way I think it is a personal preference. I can appreciate the beauty and characteristics of both liniage. In my experience in researching the breed, it seems as though the Euro's are a larger dog.

My one concern as a breeder (of horses) is sometimes breeders try to get certain physical characteristics out of an animal at the expense of what is healthy. For example, breeders started to want the small pretty head when breeding quarter horses. So this was a desirable trait. But suddenly the breed began to get problems with teeth. The heads where too small. So the backyard breeders my be replicating traits that are not desirable for the look of the dog. It is so important to breed good animals.

At any rate, I don't what to insult anyones preference. I have spent the last 6 weeks with my pup and I am head over heels for this breed. I want to go to some shows just to get a feel for it. In fact the annual dobe show is supposed to be in Fitchburg MA this year, right next door to me. I am so thrilled about this! This board has been so informative. You all have so much to offer us newbies. Thanks again for all the replies!
Lisa



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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-08-2007, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alwayshadpets View Post
I agree its a shame it can`t be discussed but it is a hot subject. Maybe someday. I have searched on my own and know all I need to know. It just comes down to two different (strong opinons). 12-15 years ago you wouldn`t even know there was such a division. Internet educates us all. Google, search and you will find.
It can be discussed, of course--but like several other people on this list I find it boring--since it inevitably seems to end up polarizing the groups on either side of the issue. This board has several lengthy discussions and you can search for those and read up on them and you'll see how the discussions get heated even though it shouldn't end up that way.

You can also find discussions about the differences (and occasionally about the similarities between Euro and North American Dobes on almost every other board and list that is related to Dobermans.

I have to disagree with you though alwayshadpets about the fact that the division of opinions is new. In my experience it's been going on as long as I've been showing Dobes and that's been since 1960.

The other thing I want to point out is that since the FCI standard for the Doberman was changed about 10 years ago now--it starts being a little like comparing apples and oranges. For most of the time that Dobermans have existed the AKC and "German" (read FCI these days) standards have been virtually identical--they no longer are.

Last edited by dobebug; 04-08-2007 at 11:45 AM.
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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-08-2007, 12:07 PM
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I guess I just don't see the need to discuss it as it's been discussed and those discussions are available for anyone to view if they are in fact interested enough to look it up.

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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-08-2007, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheezbusy View Post
I just thought that it would be similar to American vs Euro. They each have their specialty?

***That's not quite the case--in the case of the Euro Dobes there is quite a division between their "show" and "working" lines--and for the dedicated "working dog" group one of the favored insults is to say that some dog with a full array of Schutzhund titles is "really a show dog". ****

[Seems as though American bred dobes are bred more for a refined show look, and the Euro's I have seen are bred more for size for schutzhund. Not that Euro's and Americans don't cross that line, I'm sure they do.]

***Well, it might have been different when the standards were virtually identical but that's no longer the case--so the jury is out on that as far as I'm concerned. By the way--the most popular Shutzhund/Ring etc dog presently seems to be the Malenois--these are not big dogs, not heavy dogs and certainly generally are about the size of a Dobe bitch. A dog doesn't need to be bred for size for Schutzhund.****

[Either way I think it is a personal preference. I can appreciate the beauty and characteristics of both liniage. In my experience in researching the breed, it seems as though the Euro's are a larger dog.]

***Not necessarily--unfortunately there is a contingent of North American breeders who breed (and brag about it) only for size--and there are a number of lines where the breeders are actually attempting to breed to the standard and get dogs bigger than they should be. The acceptance of the more open shoulder in the FCI standard has allowed for a taller dog but it also has a size disqualification on both sides of their standard. There might be more bone on average in the Euro dogs but I don't see enough of them to know that for sure. If I had to judge by second generation dogs with one Euro parent there isn't anything that proves to me the way to get bigger bone is through adding Euro to a breeding program.****

[ So the backyard breeders my be replicating traits that are not desirable for the look of the dog. It is so important to breed good animals.]

***Ummmmm--well, yes. That's sort of a built in assumption--that you should start with good animals for breeding stock. But the puppy mills/BYB and John Q Public down the street breeding a once and only once litter usually either don't care or wouldn't recognize good breeding stock. And generally none of them have a clue about how to produce any particular trait
But I don't think that has anything much to do with the division (real and imagined) between Euro Dobes and North American Dobes.****

[At any rate, I don't what to insult anyones preference. I have spent the last 6 weeks with my pup and I am head over heels for this breed. I want to go to some shows just to get a feel for it. In fact the annual dobe show is supposed to be in Fitchburg MA this year, right next door to me. I am so thrilled about this! This board has been so informative. You all have so much to offer us newbies. Thanks again for all the replies!
Lisa
Lisa I hope you can make it to the National which is in Fitchburg this year--I think you'll find it an eye opener.
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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-08-2007, 12:26 PM
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Bug said:
<<By the way--the most popular Shutzhund/Ring etc dog presently seems to be the Malenois--these are not big dogs, not heavy dogs and certainly generally are about the size of a Dobe bitch. A dog doesn't need to be bred for size for Schutzhund.****>>

I was going to pose a similiar response. There are many different breeds that can and do excell at schutzhund..ranging from breeds as heavy boned as a rottie to the malinois-which is considerably smaller and lighter boned than a doberman. My undersized malinois bitch put a decoy on the ground more than once. So I don't think it can be said that there's an ideal "size" for schutzhund.

In any event, no matter where they might be, good breeders breed to their standard. In the case of the doberman(n), those standards are different. So it does become comparing apples and oranges.



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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-08-2007, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie W View Post
I guess I just don't see the need to discuss it as it's been discussed and those discussions are available for anyone to view if they are in fact interested enough to look it up.
Well..we discuss a LOT of stuff over and over again for the benefit of the newbies..ear posting information, housebreaking and other basic training issues being good examples. But those kinds of subjects don't invariably lead to arguments and bad vibes.

LOL, I think the "American vs. Euro" and "the morality of ear cropping/tail docking" subjects are A LOT like discussing politics or religion..your opinions are best kept to yourself, because inevitably someone is going to be insulted when they're opened up for discussion.



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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-08-2007, 04:42 PM
 
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I have been around both American and Euro types, and though diffrent in appearance, are quite similar in personality I think. Eaither way, when I see a nice looking doberman of eaither type it never fails to take my breath away. God bless the Doberman!
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post #16 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-08-2007, 06:01 PM
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I guess ignorance is bliss, because I had no idea that there were even slight differences in the two strains. I figured a Dobe was a Dobe...It will be interesting to see photos of the adult Ziris compared to one of our 'American' Dobergirls to see if there is a marked difference.
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post #17 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-08-2007, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
.

I have to disagree with you though alwayshadpets about the fact that the division of opinions is new. In my experience it's been going on as long as I've been showing Dobes and that's been since 1960..
I disagree, if this info (and maybe it was ) around in the 6o`s most people would not have that kind of info (internet was not around) unless you were in the dobie circle and showing you would not know this. In the 60`s I was into horses and in the 70`s having babies. I feel like I am just now catching up with things that interest me. Dobies are one.

I like this statement.
Sheesbuzy (QUOTE)[Either way I think it is a personal preference. I can appreciate the beauty and characteristics of both liniage.
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post #18 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-09-2007, 08:36 AM
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I just went to the search feature and typed in "Euro Dobermans" - there are a whole bunch of threads. I don't mind of people want to rehash the subject on a regular basis, but I 'd like to see them go back and read previous threads first.

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post #19 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-14-2007, 04:28 PM
 
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Forgive me for adding my comments on what is clearly a well discussed topic, imho, it appears to be one of mere cultural differences? THe US dobes are stunningly elegant, and appear more athletic , the 'Euro' dobes appear more solid in build, sometimes blurring the line between dobes and their stocker rottie cousins, however it is purely one of aesthetics and differences in taste.

Just my opinion, both types have their attractions but in essence the are still dobes.
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post #20 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-15-2007, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
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Forgive me for adding my comments on what is clearly a well discussed topic, imho, it appears to be one of mere cultural differences? THe US dobes are stunningly elegant, and appear more athletic , the 'Euro' dobes appear more solid in build, sometimes blurring the line between dobes and their stocker rottie cousins, however it is purely one of aesthetics and differences in taste.

Just my opinion, both types have their attractions but in essence the are still dobes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think I see this the way you do. I do like to see discussion though. Maybe the upcoming generation will work it out as the present one does not seem to be able to do it.
Just like wars maybe we wouldn`t have them if differences were discussed instead of shooting everyone. Oh! Oh! now I did it, I put politics in it.
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post #21 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-15-2007, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
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I disagree, if this info (and maybe it was ) around in the 6o`s most people would not have that kind of info (internet was not around) unless you were in the dobie circle and showing you would not know this. In the 60`s I was into horses and in the 70`s having babies. I feel like I am just now catching up with things that interest me. Dobies are one.

I like this statement.
Sheesbuzy (QUOTE)[Either way I think it is a personal preference. I can appreciate the beauty and characteristics of both liniage.
LOL! I just saw this reply from alwayshadpets. Believe me the disagreement was around and going on in the 60's. There have always been a few Euro imports coming in. Just recently there have been a lot more--partly because there seem to be more Euro puppy mills these days than there ever were in the past and the Euro bred added to North American lines is the "gimmick" sales feature at present.

The difference today really is the internet and forums, lists and boards like this. Information was harder to come by when it involved snail mail or the telephone. I was showing Dobes from 1960 on--so I was in Dobe circles and I saw some of the imports as they came along if they were on the west coast at all. Even then there was a different look to the Euro dogs.

But early on the biggest thing I disliked on the imports I saw in the 60's was temperament. Most of it was pretty iffy--a good many of them tended to be sharp shy.

Sheesbuzy (QUOTE)[Either way I think it is a personal preference. I can appreciate the beauty and characteristics of both liniage.[/QUOTE]

I kind of smile about the quote--if you get to the absolute bottom line--the lineage is the same--go back far enough and behind every Doberman are the same ancestors--and they were German. But over the years there has been a fairly noticeable separation between the Euro and North American dogs. That German standard change (which is what all FCI countries now judge Dobes by) was a perfect example of rewriting the standard to accomodate the dog that was being bred. Taller, straighter in shoulder--acceptably more rectangular. And it has been suggested in several of the threads about Euro vs American that the Euro dogs that make it to these shores are not the best of the Euro dogs.

I don't know....I don't care for the European look. They accept some faults that really bug me--cow hocks are common and they don't seem to bother the breeders, judges or owners. Most of the heads are unattractive to me. Occasionally I see a picture of a Euro dog that I quite like but I haven't seen one in person that does much for me.
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post #22 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-16-2007, 11:34 AM
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As a nurse, I always tell my patients, there is never a stupid question and if I don't know the answer I will direct you to someone that knows or can inform me.

I guess I equate this question to the question of "I'm new to the forum, What is the best food to feed my new Doberman." Although it is a very good question and there are very good answers, it has been discussed many many times here and all threads related to this type of topic can be found by using the site search engine. By now, I've done research on this forum and on the internet and it is now a very boring topic for me.

So.........use the search engine!
When I first found this site, the first thing I used was the search and found exactly what I was looking for without having to start a new thread. search: stinky doberman
(BTW, Rudi doesn't know he stinks a lot, so don't email him and tell him)

I highly value what is on this forum. You have longtime trainers and breeders as well as afficionados and then someone like me who rescued their first dobe 2 years ago. (and I am now hooked!) I use this forum (especially the search function) as my own personal stack of Doberman encyclopedias.

I now can haz a sister?



If you are not fully health testing and titling your Dobermans, I'm not buying. I'm not a sucker for a greeder, back yard breeder or puppy miller. I've done my research......have you???

Last edited by Riagogogo; 04-16-2007 at 11:44 AM.
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post #23 of 23 (permalink) Old 04-16-2007, 12:46 PM
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I see alot of "observational" type posts in this thread which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but you can't really make anything concrete from it. Selective breeding is an art form, and while there is a written standard for European and American liniage, you need to adress the fact that this art form gives *some* degree of personal interpretation... giving us differences (pedigrees) within American and European breeding programs. Thus, comparing different pedigrees from American and European lines is like comparing apples to oranges.

Really,the only true way to compare the two regional differences is to compare the written standards word for word. Both written standards are availible through the dpca.
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