Hi every one!
So I've been reading a lot -again- about the differences between American and European Dobermans, but it is not my intention to start a debate of which one is better or bigger, or prettier, etc .. Thing is I found a video of Doberman judging in the last world dog show in Shanghai (which I posted in the last thread I created) where there's a European Doberman competing with a bunch of Americans, so I think there are a lot of things to discuss about that rare sight ( I think), from the handling and gait to the size and physical characteristics even though it is a video taken from some distance and may be subjective.
First thing first, here is the full video https://youtu.be/-YM0tczNzAg
I think the European dog is ARXANGEL VON SCHWARZE KRAFT and I think is the best male judging, to get the certificate of aptitude for conformation championship (CACIT).
Best of breed was Alristar's The King of Glory (didn't found pictures of him)
-Then about the size. Euro certainly looks a little thicker than the dogs surrounding him. Either way, I don't see to much of a difference (especially with the dog at 4:11) and may be related to weight or the non-appreciable tuck up in the Euro ... or both? I don't know, still difficult to appreciate yourself. If we look at the lateral view at 4:31, the dog behind the Euro has no up tuck and his body looks pretty much with the same proportions.
Also, I don't see any difference about the height, there are dogs that look a little shorter and dogs that look the same height or a little taller (maybe due to the stacking).
I have to say that the Am's look definitely leaner than the Euro, if you see 3:00 you cannot see the "waist" of the dog and he looks a little overweight IMHO.
It's really hard to tell much from the video--but I have to ask--is the dog shown Euro style--collar down at the base of the neck with the dog pulling the handler--the only European entry and the rest are all American (AKC?) dogs?
I think that the dogs generally are all the same height except for the dog immediately behind the Euro dog. That dog looks to be substantially taller--interesting since I don't know what standard is being used. If Euro--there is a slight difference in allowed height BUT the AKC standard has no DQ for out of standard height while the Euro standard has a DQ for over or under allowed height.
If by "thicker" you mean that the Euro dog looks heavier? He looks to me to be downright fat--and it's been commented on before about the weight at which the Euro dogs are shown. That straight underline (no tuck up generally is a result of excess fat in a heavy pad at the dogs belly.
The "American" dogs look better conditioned and to be carrying more appropriate weight than the Euro dog. The only other dog that looks overweight is the one behind the Euro dog and he looks distinctly overweight but not to the extent that the Euro dog does.
-Color. Markings are definitely darker (which I personally love).
-I don't see any important differences in chest depth and rib cage at least in this video.
-Angulations. I don't think we can compare front and rear angles since it's impossible to appreciate arms and shoulders and the differences in stackings are really important in the rear and, more importantly, angulations vary from dog to dog more than between lines right?
Marking color is definitely darker in the Euro dog but I know, because I've seen enough Euro dogs over time to know that some of the darker color isn't darker rust (which would be proper) but the fact that often the black, or red leaks into the marking color significantly and some dogs are noticeably melanistic--not correct at all. My bottom line is that I'm not terribly picky about dark rust markings--I'm more interested in excellent conformation.
The difference in stacking is so significant that you can hardly tell what the dogs conformation is like--certainly can't really compare front and rear angulation. If you are saying that the balanced front and rear angulation varies from individual dog rather than from American compared to Euro--I don't think that's entirely the case--I think you could make an argument that there is likely to be are similarity of angulation in different lines (breeding lines) which would appear to be dog to dog in a show ring where there might only be one dog from one breeding line in any given class. But I think that the Euro angulation does look different than the American angulation--in general. But so much of it relates to the stacking I'm not sure of that.
Gait. I am no expert in conformation and far less in looking at gaiting, but I find the movent of the Euro more sound than the other dogs, especially in the rear.
I don't think there was any way to evaluate movement in the Euro dog--even in the rare occasions when he was moving in a somewhat controlled manner--he was pulling away from the handler and the leash was at all time taut--almost all Euro dogs in that exagerated stack look cowhocked because the stack takes all the weight off the rear--and you can see the handler trying to correct that appearance by straightening out his hocks when he stops.
-Croup in the Euro looks rounder and I think that is more common in Euro than Am's
Yes, I think his croup looks rounder than that of any other dog in the ring. I've heard that it is more common in the Euro breeding--but from what I've seen that's not universal. I think his croup is more than "slightly rounded".
-The biggest difference I find is the head and neck. Head looks heavier in Euro, with a longer muzzle, big lips, more pronounced stop, and wider skull (0: 40-0: 50). Since there are no closer takes I can't see specific differences. Neck also looks thicker than in the Am's and looks like it is more forward than the other dogs, however, I think it is also related to the stacking style.
I would agree that the difference in the head is substantial. Again, the video doesn't really allow for a good look but the Euro's head looks blockier to me. I don't think his muzzle looks longer. And his stop is more pronounced than it should be (according to the AKC standard which still resembles the original German standard more than the Euro standard does now). The AKC standard calls for a "slight stop"--most of the Euro dogs I've seen (granted mostly in photographs) have stops like Great Danes--"pronounced". "Big lips"--looser it looks like to me and I can't remember exactly what the Euro standard says but the language in the AKC standard which is virtually identical to the old German standard say "head, long and dry"--that means no loose skin, floppy flew or dewlaps. In general I think the European heads tend to have broader skulls and look to me to be blockier--the standard (AKC) says blunt wedge.
The neck set is not as smooth as most of the AKC showline dogs--and this particular dogs neck looks very heavy--possibly he's older than the rest of the entries--that can make a significant difference.
-Of course, handling is completely different. I think this played against his handler who looks uncomfortable trying to stop the dog going to get the ball and the second handler who, by the way, had to be running around the ring, zigzagging between people, etc. An important detail is that the dog steps on the handler's feet, I don't know if like a reference or to let the dog pushing forward without slipping its feet. At last, I don't understand the double leash? too many things to handle at the same time.
The handling style is really different. And it looked to me like the in ring handler of the the Euro dog hadn't had a lot of experience at handling. I've seen video of other Euro shows and the handlers seemed to have at least moderate control of the dogs--she really didn't seem to be in control most of the time.
About the detail of the dog stepping on the handlers feet--I went through the video at least a dozen times and never did see where the dog was stepping on the handlers feet so I have no idea what that means. And I looked for a double leash--never did find that? The Euro dog didn't appear to have a double leash?
-Funny thing I thing Euro won reserve cacib and almost leave without it.
It was that detail that made me wonder if this was a very inexperienced handler
What do you think?
Please feel free to express your opinion and correct anything I wrote, the only objective of this thread is to learn
Well, that's what I thought--but for all of the years of showing AKC dogs in this country my experience with Euro dogs to some extend is pretty limited. I've seen a few video's of Euro Doberman judging. I've seen a few Euro dogs in this country--far enough back that cropping was still being done in most of the no crop countries and when I started showing (1960) there were still some pretty nice Euro bred dogs being imported and since they mostly came in as puppies and were never trained in what became the Euro style of conformation exhibition the didn't look so very different in the ring.
But this stuff is just my opinion...for what it's worth.