Video comparison, Euro vs American - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-17-2020, 05:50 PM Thread Starter
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Video comparison, Euro vs American

Hi every one!
So I've been reading a lot -again- about the differences between American and European Dobermans, but it is not my intention to start a debate of which one is better or bigger, or prettier, etc .. Thing is I found a video of Doberman judging in the last world dog show in Shanghai (which I posted in the last thread I created) where there's a European Doberman competing with a bunch of Americans, so I think there are a lot of things to discuss about that rare sight ( I think), from the handling and gait to the size and physical characteristics even though it is a video taken from some distance and may be subjective.

First thing first, here is the full video

https://youtu.be/-YM0tczNzAg

I think the European dog is ARXANGEL VON SCHWARZE KRAFT and I think is the best male judging, to get the certificate of aptitude for conformation championship (CACIT).
Best of breed was Alristar's The King of Glory (didn't found pictures of him)

-Then about the size. Euro certainly looks a little thicker than the dogs surrounding him. Either way, I don't see to much of a difference (especially with the dog at 4:11) and may be related to weight or the non-appreciable tuck up in the Euro ... or both? I don't know, still difficult to appreciate yourself. If we look at the lateral view at 4:31, the dog behind the Euro has no up tuck and his body looks pretty much with the same proportions.
Also, I don't see any difference about the height, there are dogs that look a little shorter and dogs that look the same height or a little taller (maybe due to the stacking).
I have to say that the Am's look definitely leaner than the Euro, if you see 3:00 you cannot see the "waist" of the dog and he looks a little overweight IMHO.

-Color. Markings are definitely darker (which I personally love).

-I don't see any important differences in chest depth and rib cage at least in this video.

-Angulations. I don't think we can compare front and rear angles since it's impossible to appreciate arms and shoulders and the differences in stackings are really important in the rear and, more importantly, angulations vary from dog to dog more than between lines right?

-Gait. I am no expert in conformation and far less in looking at gaiting, but I find the movent of the Euro more sound than the other dogs, especially in the rear.

-Croup in the Euro looks rounder and I think that is more common in Euro than Am's

-The biggest difference I find is the head and neck. Head looks heavier in Euro, with a longer muzzle, big lips, more pronounced stop, and wider skull (0: 40-0: 50). Since there are no closer takes I can't see specific differences. Neck also looks thicker than in the Am's and looks like it is more forward than the other dogs, however, I think it is also related to the stacking style.

-Of course, handling is completely different. I think this played against his handler who looks uncomfortable trying to stop the dog going to get the ball and the second handler who, by the way, had to be running around the ring, zigzagging between people, etc. An important detail is that the dog steps on the handler's feet, I don't know if like a reference or to let the dog pushing forward without slipping its feet. At last, I don't understand the double leash? too many things to handle at the same time.

-Funny thing I thing Euro won reserve cacib and almost leave without it.

What do you think?
Please feel free to express your opinion and correct anything I wrote, the only objective of this thread is to learn
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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-17-2020, 06:08 PM
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I don't think much difference between that "Euro" doberman and some "American" dobermans I see in the ring, other than the style of the head.

Regarding his movement, I can't judge that because in my opinion he was not gaiting properly, likely due to lack of training. He was pulling against the lead so it is not easy to judge the reach and drive based on what I see on this video.
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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-18-2020, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isra View Post
Hi every one!
So I've been reading a lot -again- about the differences between American and European Dobermans, but it is not my intention to start a debate of which one is better or bigger, or prettier, etc .. Thing is I found a video of Doberman judging in the last world dog show in Shanghai (which I posted in the last thread I created) where there's a European Doberman competing with a bunch of Americans, so I think there are a lot of things to discuss about that rare sight ( I think), from the handling and gait to the size and physical characteristics even though it is a video taken from some distance and may be subjective.

First thing first, here is the full video

https://youtu.be/-YM0tczNzAg

I think the European dog is ARXANGEL VON SCHWARZE KRAFT and I think is the best male judging, to get the certificate of aptitude for conformation championship (CACIT).
Best of breed was Alristar's The King of Glory (didn't found pictures of him)

-Then about the size. Euro certainly looks a little thicker than the dogs surrounding him. Either way, I don't see to much of a difference (especially with the dog at 4:11) and may be related to weight or the non-appreciable tuck up in the Euro ... or both? I don't know, still difficult to appreciate yourself. If we look at the lateral view at 4:31, the dog behind the Euro has no up tuck and his body looks pretty much with the same proportions.
Also, I don't see any difference about the height, there are dogs that look a little shorter and dogs that look the same height or a little taller (maybe due to the stacking).
I have to say that the Am's look definitely leaner than the Euro, if you see 3:00 you cannot see the "waist" of the dog and he looks a little overweight IMHO.
It's really hard to tell much from the video--but I have to ask--is the dog shown Euro style--collar down at the base of the neck with the dog pulling the handler--the only European entry and the rest are all American (AKC?) dogs?

I think that the dogs generally are all the same height except for the dog immediately behind the Euro dog. That dog looks to be substantially taller--interesting since I don't know what standard is being used. If Euro--there is a slight difference in allowed height BUT the AKC standard has no DQ for out of standard height while the Euro standard has a DQ for over or under allowed height.

If by "thicker" you mean that the Euro dog looks heavier? He looks to me to be downright fat--and it's been commented on before about the weight at which the Euro dogs are shown. That straight underline (no tuck up generally is a result of excess fat in a heavy pad at the dogs belly.

The "American" dogs look better conditioned and to be carrying more appropriate weight than the Euro dog. The only other dog that looks overweight is the one behind the Euro dog and he looks distinctly overweight but not to the extent that the Euro dog does.



Quote:
-Color. Markings are definitely darker (which I personally love).

-I don't see any important differences in chest depth and rib cage at least in this video.

-Angulations. I don't think we can compare front and rear angles since it's impossible to appreciate arms and shoulders and the differences in stackings are really important in the rear and, more importantly, angulations vary from dog to dog more than between lines right?
Marking color is definitely darker in the Euro dog but I know, because I've seen enough Euro dogs over time to know that some of the darker color isn't darker rust (which would be proper) but the fact that often the black, or red leaks into the marking color significantly and some dogs are noticeably melanistic--not correct at all. My bottom line is that I'm not terribly picky about dark rust markings--I'm more interested in excellent conformation.

The difference in stacking is so significant that you can hardly tell what the dogs conformation is like--certainly can't really compare front and rear angulation. If you are saying that the balanced front and rear angulation varies from individual dog rather than from American compared to Euro--I don't think that's entirely the case--I think you could make an argument that there is likely to be are similarity of angulation in different lines (breeding lines) which would appear to be dog to dog in a show ring where there might only be one dog from one breeding line in any given class. But I think that the Euro angulation does look different than the American angulation--in general. But so much of it relates to the stacking I'm not sure of that.

Quote:
Gait. I am no expert in conformation and far less in looking at gaiting, but I find the movent of the Euro more sound than the other dogs, especially in the rear.
I don't think there was any way to evaluate movement in the Euro dog--even in the rare occasions when he was moving in a somewhat controlled manner--he was pulling away from the handler and the leash was at all time taut--almost all Euro dogs in that exagerated stack look cowhocked because the stack takes all the weight off the rear--and you can see the handler trying to correct that appearance by straightening out his hocks when he stops.

Quote:
-Croup in the Euro looks rounder and I think that is more common in Euro than Am's
Yes, I think his croup looks rounder than that of any other dog in the ring. I've heard that it is more common in the Euro breeding--but from what I've seen that's not universal. I think his croup is more than "slightly rounded".

Quote:
-The biggest difference I find is the head and neck. Head looks heavier in Euro, with a longer muzzle, big lips, more pronounced stop, and wider skull (0: 40-0: 50). Since there are no closer takes I can't see specific differences. Neck also looks thicker than in the Am's and looks like it is more forward than the other dogs, however, I think it is also related to the stacking style.
I would agree that the difference in the head is substantial. Again, the video doesn't really allow for a good look but the Euro's head looks blockier to me. I don't think his muzzle looks longer. And his stop is more pronounced than it should be (according to the AKC standard which still resembles the original German standard more than the Euro standard does now). The AKC standard calls for a "slight stop"--most of the Euro dogs I've seen (granted mostly in photographs) have stops like Great Danes--"pronounced". "Big lips"--looser it looks like to me and I can't remember exactly what the Euro standard says but the language in the AKC standard which is virtually identical to the old German standard say "head, long and dry"--that means no loose skin, floppy flew or dewlaps. In general I think the European heads tend to have broader skulls and look to me to be blockier--the standard (AKC) says blunt wedge.

The neck set is not as smooth as most of the AKC showline dogs--and this particular dogs neck looks very heavy--possibly he's older than the rest of the entries--that can make a significant difference.

Quote:
-Of course, handling is completely different. I think this played against his handler who looks uncomfortable trying to stop the dog going to get the ball and the second handler who, by the way, had to be running around the ring, zigzagging between people, etc. An important detail is that the dog steps on the handler's feet, I don't know if like a reference or to let the dog pushing forward without slipping its feet. At last, I don't understand the double leash? too many things to handle at the same time.
The handling style is really different. And it looked to me like the in ring handler of the the Euro dog hadn't had a lot of experience at handling. I've seen video of other Euro shows and the handlers seemed to have at least moderate control of the dogs--she really didn't seem to be in control most of the time.

About the detail of the dog stepping on the handlers feet--I went through the video at least a dozen times and never did see where the dog was stepping on the handlers feet so I have no idea what that means. And I looked for a double leash--never did find that? The Euro dog didn't appear to have a double leash?

Quote:
-Funny thing I thing Euro won reserve cacib and almost leave without it.
It was that detail that made me wonder if this was a very inexperienced handler

Quote:
What do you think?
Please feel free to express your opinion and correct anything I wrote, the only objective of this thread is to learn
Well, that's what I thought--but for all of the years of showing AKC dogs in this country my experience with Euro dogs to some extend is pretty limited. I've seen a few video's of Euro Doberman judging. I've seen a few Euro dogs in this country--far enough back that cropping was still being done in most of the no crop countries and when I started showing (1960) there were still some pretty nice Euro bred dogs being imported and since they mostly came in as puppies and were never trained in what became the Euro style of conformation exhibition the didn't look so very different in the ring.

But this stuff is just my opinion...for what it's worth.

dobebug
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Last edited by dobebug; 08-18-2020 at 03:28 PM.
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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-18-2020, 03:50 PM
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"But this stuff is just my opinion...for what it's worth.

dobebug"

Your collection of "opinions" need to be collected and compiled into a treatise on Dobermans.

Seriously, bug. There are too many thoughts, facts and anecdotes floating around in your keppe not to write them down for future reference. You can have Mel edit the final draft! LOL

John
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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-18-2020, 07:12 PM
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There are some nice Euro dogs that have been shown (and finished) in the US. It would be really nice to have video of those dogs in the ring with American bred dogs. It would give a really good comparison that shows that the two standards aren't all that different when the dogs are shown the same way. That's not to say there are no differences, but a quality dog is a quality dog.
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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-19-2020, 12:46 AM Thread Starter
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I'm sorry, I couldn't put every quote to respond to each one so I did it like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
It's really hard to tell much from the video--but I have to ask--is the dog shown Euro style--collar down at the base of the neck with the dog pulling the handler--the only European entry and the rest are all American (AKC?) dogs?..............

dobebug

Originally Posted by Dobebug:
It's really hard to tell much from the video--but I have to ask--is the dog shown Euro style--collar down at the base of the neck with the dog pulling the handler--the only European entry and the rest are all American (AKC?) dogs?

That is an interesting question. There is always discussion about the FCI (European if you wish) and AKC standards, however I would say that a good number -if not most of them- of the countries affiliated to FCI including Mexico and the rest of the Americas 99.9% of the dogs you see in shows are American line, American breed or descendent of American dogs, why? Maybe the closeness to the US and the easiness to import dogs from there than Europe... but yeah all American Dobermans in FCI countries (of course there are a few "Euro" breeders, but you don't see them in shows frequently). This leads to the question of how much different are the standards, maybe differences between lines are only about how much people like one or the other.

Originally Posted by Dobebug:
I think that the dogs generally are all the same height except for the dog immediately behind the Euro dog. That dog looks to be substantially taller--interesting since I don't know what standard is being used. If Euro--there is a slight difference in allowed height BUT the AKC standard has no DQ for out of standard height while the Euro standard has a DQ for over or under allowed height.

It's the FCI standard and more than 2 cm (around .8 inches) is a disqualification

Originally Posted by Dobebug:
I would agree that the difference in the head is substantial. Again, the video doesn't really allow for a good look but the Euro's head looks blockier to me. I don't think his muzzle looks longer. And his stop is more pronounced than it should be (according to the AKC standard which still resembles the original German standard more than the Euro standard does now). The AKC standard calls for a "slight stop"--most of the Euro dogs I've seen (granted mostly in photographs) have stops like Great Danes--"pronounced". "Big lips"--looser it looks like to me and I can't remember exactly what the Euro standard says but the language in the AKC standard which is virtually identical to the old German standard say "head, long and dry"--that means no loose skin, floppy flew or dewlaps. In general, I think the European heads tend to have broader skulls and look to me to be blockier--the standard (AKC) says blunt wedge.

This is what the FCI standard says: "CRANIAL REGION: Strong and in proportion to the body. Seen
from the top the head is shaped in the form of a blunt wedge....... Stop: Shall be slight but visibly developed." both standards almost identical.

Originally Posted by Dobebug:
About the detail of the dog stepping on the handlers feet--I went through the video at least a dozen times and never did see where the dog was stepping on the handlers feet so I have no idea what that means. And I looked for a double leash--never did find that? The Euro dog didn't appear to have a double leash?

At minute 4:46 is a close up and you can see the handler puts the feet of the dog in contact with her's (I'll try to post a screen shot.
And yes, my mistake, she doesn't have two leashes, I saw the video again in detail and she changes the position of the leash on the collar, which is eternally long, so I thought she had 2 leashes.

Originally Posted by Dobebug:
But this stuff is just my opinion...for what it's worth.

I looks like an expert opinion to me, so thank you for taking the time of writing your answer
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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-19-2020, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isra View Post
Originally Posted by Dobebug:
About the detail of the dog stepping on the handlers feet--I went through the video at least a dozen times and never did see where the dog was stepping on the handlers feet so I have no idea what that means. And I looked for a double leash--never did find that? The Euro dog didn't appear to have a double leash?

At minute 4:46 is a close up and you can see the handler puts the feet of the dog in contact with her's (I'll try to post a screen shot.
And yes, my mistake, she doesn't have two leashes, I saw the video again in detail and she changes the position of the leash on the collar, which is eternally long, so I thought she had 2 leashes.
Hi Isra,

OK, looking at your screen shot--I think that is one of the places where the handler has just adjusted the back legs so that the dog is no longer standing cowhocked. She does that several times but that's the best (clearest) picture. I think (and this is only a guess) that when she adjusts the hind feet to keep the dog from standing cowhocked (which he is doing because he's straining so far forward all his weight in on his front--and that'll make any dog look cowhocked) she puts her feet up against his feet to keep him from moving them. There is one shot of the dog where you can see his rear movement from more or less behind and it's clear that he's NOT cowhocked but that exaggerated Euro method of handling sure makes almost all their dogs look cowhocked.

As I say, only a guess but it didn't work--he moves his feet again almost immediately to go back to looking cowhocked--he can't maintain he position.

dobebug
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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-19-2020, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4bike ped View Post
"But this stuff is just my opinion...for what it's worth.

dobebug"

Your collection of "opinions" need to be collected and compiled into a treatise on Dobermans.

Seriously, bug. There are too many thoughts, facts and anecdotes floating around in your keppe not to write them down for future reference. You can have Mel edit the final draft! LOL

John
Stop that Johnnie! Anyone who wants to collect any of my miscellaneous "opinions" and give them to Mel to edit has my permission. Sounds like a lot of work for the Luddite who can hardly operate a computer any more.

<Snort> Just for the record I ran into something I'd written close to 10 years ago and though when I re-read it that it was awful good advice. But that's as far as I'm likely to get on a project of that magnitude.

Floating around in my 'keppe'? Isn't that one of the white hats that Amish women wear?

Oh, oh--I've stayed up too long--now both the cats are awake and staring at me hoping for an early breakfast--sorry guys, I'm going back to bed--now that it's cool enough to sleep.

dobebug
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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-19-2020, 03:24 PM
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bug...

"Keppe"="Head" in yiddish slang. Often used in the diminutive: keppie or keppy.

I've been hanging around my Jewish wife and her fam for over 50 years. LOL

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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-19-2020, 04:37 PM
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Thanks for posting the video - it was interesting. So, the first dog in line (the one that did win it seems) was clearly the best dog in there - probably heavy Cambria lines. The Euro boy lacked training big time and one reason his head looked so much bigger is because he never shut his mouth but was stress panting the whole time. I've seen some very nice Euro dogs in the show ring (trained or not), this was not one of them IMHO. It would be hard to judge his movement, but it looked to me that he was paddling in front - hard to tell on this video. He had flat feet - pretty common in Euro's and was really overweight - also common. Bug already mentioned that his croup was more than slightly rounded - she was being kind - haha. The other black dog was also overweight - but not too bad looking, then the 4th red boy was pretty overangulated in the rear and was sidewinding on the diagonal when moving.
It would be interesting to see the pedigree of the first dog to see if I'm right about the Cambria lines.

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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-19-2020, 07:14 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
There are some nice Euro dogs that have been shown (and finished) in the US. It would be really nice to have video of those dogs in the ring with American bred dogs. It would give a really good comparison that shows that the two standards aren't all that different when the dogs are shown the same way. That's not to say there are no differences, but a quality dog is a quality dog.
That would be awesome, but I couldn't find any videos, but I found this the website of Dobericht kennel of Canada, they have photos of their dogs stacked American style Dobereich
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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-19-2020, 07:27 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fitzmar Dobermans View Post
Thanks for posting the video - it was interesting. So, the first dog in line (the one that did win it seems) was clearly the best dog in there - probably heavy Cambria lines. The Euro boy lacked training big time and one reason his head looked so much bigger is because he never shut his mouth but was stress panting the whole time. I've seen some very nice Euro dogs in the show ring (trained or not), this was not one of them IMHO. It would be hard to judge his movement, but it looked to me that he was paddling in front - hard to tell on this video. He had flat feet - pretty common in Euro's and was really overweight - also common. Bug already mentioned that his croup was more than slightly rounded - she was being kind - haha. The other black dog was also overweight - but not too bad looking, then the 4th red boy was pretty overangulated in the rear and was sidewinding on the diagonal when moving.
It would be interesting to see the pedigree of the first dog to see if I'm right about the Cambria lines.
I couldn't find any pictures or the pedigree of that dog, who I think won BOB and his name is Ch Alristar’s The King Of Glory, I am guessing a little since the video has no description. Maybe the name gives you some information?
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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-19-2020, 08:16 PM
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Here is an example of an AKC champion that is a full Euro import. In the photo he is stacked for the American show ring because it's an American show win photo. Dobequest here: Dobequestog Profile Page



DSC_0133
by Shanoa Delta, on Flickr

Richter & Sypha
Glengate's Mountain Fortress CAA ORT L1E L1C NW2 L2V L2I ACT1 RATI SOG WAC
& Sirai's Golden Masquerade ORT L1V L1E L2C L2I NW2 NW3-C NW3-E RATI SOG DOG TKN SIN SEN WAC
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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-19-2020, 08:27 PM
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Here is another AKC Grand Champion, full Euro, a Sant Kreal dog. Dobequest here: Dobequestog Profile Page



Just a couple of examples of Euro dogs in the AKC show ring for comparison. They aren't videos, but it's much easier to compare "apples to apples" when you see the same show stacks.


DSC_0133
by Shanoa Delta, on Flickr

Richter & Sypha
Glengate's Mountain Fortress CAA ORT L1E L1C NW2 L2V L2I ACT1 RATI SOG WAC
& Sirai's Golden Masquerade ORT L1V L1E L2C L2I NW2 NW3-C NW3-E RATI SOG DOG TKN SIN SEN WAC
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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-19-2020, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
Here is an example of an AKC champion that is a full Euro import. In the photo he is stacked for the American show ring because it's an American show win photo. Dobequest here: Dobequestog Profile Page

Thanks MeadowCat--I quite like this dog--I'd take him home and not even neuter him (too bad about the Addison's though) He even has proper feet.

And I like the look of the Saint Kreal dog as well--there have several from that kennel that have been imported fairly recently. I think the Eastern European dogs are closer to what I look for in a Dobe but then I've shown, and owned AKC dogs and they show under the AKC standard.

Almost all my Dobes have had a little Canadian breeding behind them and/or South American breeding and I noticed that the dog pictures has Troytl and his sire in the male line.

It's sooo much easier to make comparisons when both specimens are being handled the same way.

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post #16 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-20-2020, 09:49 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
Here is an example of an AKC champion that is a full Euro import. In the photo he is stacked for the American show ring because it's an American show win photo. Dobequest here: Dobequestog Profile Page

Nice dog! It maybe is the picture but he looks super huge..... and has a nice touch of South America right? Grand son of Alea by the Sea and grand grand son of Trotyl
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post #17 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-20-2020, 09:58 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dobebug View Post

And I like the look of the Saint Kreal dog as well--there have several from that kennel that have been imported fairly recently. I think the Eastern European dogs are closer to what I look for in a Dobe but then I've shown, and owned AKC dogs and they show under the AKC standard.

It's sooo much easier to make comparisons when both specimens are being handled the same way.

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I think this is contradictory in the Doberman world outside the US because I don't think too many countries outside Europe show their Dobermans Euro-style, and they use American line dogs, but judged under FCI standard, so in reality both standards are not that different. Again, matter of taste I think and again it means that a good dog is a good dog everywhere, as you said before.
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post #18 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-20-2020, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Isra View Post
Nice dog! It maybe is the picture but he looks super huge..... and has a nice touch of South America right? Grand son of Alea by the Sea and grand grand son of Trotyl
Well, his Dobequest page says he's 29 inch--over standard for AKC but since there is no DQ for out of standard height if the dog is good enough he would only be penalized to the extent of the fault. Since several of my AKC Champions were 28.5 inches and since I know that Troytl's sire, Inaque was a big dog his size really doesn't surprize me.

But I think he looks huge because the photo was aimed to spotlight the dog and given the apparent size of the handler and the general height of the ring fencing I wouldn't have called him huge.

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post #19 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-20-2020, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Isra View Post
I think this is contradictory in the Doberman world outside the US because I don't think too many countries outside Europe show their Dobermans Euro-style, and they use American line dogs, but judged under FCI standard, so in reality both standards are not that different. Again, matter of taste I think and again it means that a good dog is a good dog everywhere, as you said before.
Actually I think I sort of knew that--which is why I was referring to dogs and the standard as Euro rather than FCI.

No, the standards as written are not too different but from another type of comparison the USA constitution and the Russian Constitution as written are very similar--in practice for the nationals of both countries the actual results are pretty different.

But the bottom line is that good dogs are indeed good dogs and whether they have been judged by the FCI standard or the AKC/CKC standards (not identical but very similar) quality will always be recognisable.

Thanks for starting the thread--I think the discussions that arise out of things like this are very valuable--especially for the folk that don't always get to see discussion about the finer points of dog conformation with pictures and/or videos.

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post #20 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-20-2020, 03:19 PM
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post #21 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-22-2020, 08:32 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
Well, his Dobequest page says he's 29 inch--over standard for AKC but since there is no DQ for out of standard height if the dog is good enough he would only be penalized to the extent of the fault. Since several of my AKC Champions were 28.5 inches and since I know that Troytl's sire, Inaque was a big dog his size really doesn't surprize me.

But I think he looks huge because the photo was aimed to spotlight the dog and given the apparent size of the handler and the general height of the ring fencing I wouldn't have called him huge.

dobebug

That's what I thought, either the guy is small, the dog is big or a photo effect. 29 inches is like if he steps on a hair will be a DQ... I really like the dog.
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post #22 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-22-2020, 08:54 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for starting the thread--I think the discussions that arise out of things like this are very valuable--especially for the folk that don't always get to see discussion about the finer points of dog conformation with pictures and/or videos.

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Actually thak you dobebug
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