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post #1 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-15-2013, 11:41 PM Thread Starter
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High drive puppy-help!

This is my 3rd doberman. This one has the most energy!! We feed her 3 times a day (taste of the wild puppy). she eats 2 cups per serving, eats the whole bowl.
She's about 30 lbs or so now. It is very dry here, so both my dogs have been itchy ( baths this weekend for both).

She is a little over 4 months, and in pretty sure she's going through teething. She has squeaky toys, rubber and nylon toyS for teething. Her favorite is empty water bottles. And towels off the counter. I spend my time chasing her in our yard, she likes my rosé bush and tore up my irises ( hubby since put her poop near them, and she leaves them alone). But she still looks for twigs and leaves. Tears up blankets and tries to get the stuffing from under the recliner chair.

She is a complete Boogar. Here's my issue. She doesn't respond to ouch, or crying like a puppy. I put her in her exercise pen when she becomes excitingly aggressive with biting. The more you tell her no bites, the more she does it and harder. I have held her moth closed (she stands still then), but continues afterwards. I have held her in my arms and put my head over her neck, and she begins to whine and get frustrated and starts to fight to get loose to bite. I have Bitter Apple to try to put on my hands when she tries to bite them. But was wondering if anyone else is/has gone through this.

When we put her in her pen, she goes into this frantic crying and barking, and we ignore her. She sometimes throws a big tantrum, turns her bed upside down, throws her blankets around, etc. I have tried rubbing lavender oil in her ears and rub it on her fav. stuffed bunny. It helps a little. I'm getting those 2 books people have mentioned in here too (calming and positive training).

I have contacted a trainer that deals with hard headed dogs too. Am waiting for them to set a date with us.

She respects our 7 yr dobe. Our older dobe has taken her on like her own child. Between her and us, we're all trying to work on this pup calming down. I know she's still a pup, but need some advice to calm down her biting and frantic separation anxiety. I can't pee without her panicking in the other room. I try to redirect her biting with her toy. She plays with her toy by your feet and decides to bite you instead! I also have been training her to sit, maybe that will help too.

Sorry so long, she is the most hard headed pup I have ever had!! And I'm an alpha myself! We all love her very much, but are having a hard time with her.

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post #2 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-15-2013, 11:43 PM Thread Starter
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High drive puppy-help!

I forgot, when she cries in her pen, we have to shut our back door. She is so loud and my neighbor hears her. I'm embarrassed.


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post #3 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-16-2013, 12:21 AM
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High drive puppy-help!

Ohhhhh she even looks like a little terror!

I rescued Hades at a year and a half roughly and he was horribly socialized basically not at all. He also had no bite inhibition. He wasn't biting down but was VERY mouthy! To me to guests everyone! It had to stop immediately. I tried the puppy yelp, didn't help. I tried trading for a toy, didn't help. The only thing that worked for him was if he put his mouth on me at all even accidentally while playing with a toy I would gasp really loud. Like a sharp intake of air then say in what I can only describe as a shocked sad voice "Hades!" Then walk away and ignore him. Sometimes I'd throw in an "I can't believe you'd do that." just to really get my feelings across it helped immensely. So strange I know.

You just gotta find what works for her and keep it up.


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post #4 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-16-2013, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShellyBear View Post
I spend my time chasing her in our yard, she likes my rosé bush and tore up my irises ( hubby since put her poop near them, and she leaves them alone). But she still looks for twigs and leaves. Tears up blankets and tries to get the stuffing from under the recliner chair.

The more you tell her no bites, the more she does it and harder. I have held her moth closed (she stands still then), but continues afterwards. I have held her in my arms and put my head over her neck, and she begins to whine and get frustrated and starts to fight to get loose to bite. I have Bitter Apple to try to put on my hands when she tries to bite them. But was wondering if anyone else is/has gone through this.

When we put her in her pen, she goes into this frantic crying and barking, and we ignore her. She sometimes throws a big tantrum, turns her bed upside down, throws her blankets around, etc.

I know she's still a pup, but need some advice to calm down her biting and frantic separation anxiety. I can't pee without her panicking in the other room. I try to redirect her biting with her toy. She plays with her toy by your feet and decides to bite you instead! I also have been training her to sit, maybe that will help too.
Instead of chasing her around the back yard, I would prevent her from access to what you don't want her into (I like the dog poop!) and stop sweating the small stuff... who cares if she gets twigs or leaves? If you cannot keep her out of where she should not be, keep her on a long line and prevent her that way. Chasing her all over just gives her the means to yank your chain.

If the more you yell her "No bite!" the more she bites... quit it! The best definition of insanity is repeating the same behavior over and over and expecting different results LOL! The best responses to puppy biting are the lowest energy ones you can manage... people yank their hands away, get loud, get active, add energy to the whole situation... make themselves great toys! And, give puppies a way to yank their chains. Just freeze, and see what she does. If just freezing does not work (give it more than a single trial, and more than just momentarily), try a very low, quiet, serious growl sound...

You might pay attention to whether or not there are particular times she is worse... puppies sometimes get overtired and lose their little minds. They can't help it, and need a nap. The middle of the evening is frequently when overtired puppies lose it...

When you have tried restraint and she has struggled, what did you do?

Do not confuse a tantrum with separation anxiety or panic.

She is FOUR MONTHS OLD and you have been training her TO SIT??? What about down and come and stay and walk nicely on a leash? She needs something to focus on besides mindless puppy stuff. She should be training for real... several short (ten minutes) sessions per day.

What does she do for exercise besides run away from you in the back yard? Where do you take her to explore? What adventures do you have with her?

It sounds like this pup is way more demanding than you are used to. That will probably make her a lot of fun, and a lot of work. Puppies like this... if you don't give them what they need, they'll do what they can to meet their own needs. That's what I think you are seeing now.
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post #5 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-16-2013, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by DobeAndBorderCollie View Post
He also had no bite inhibition. He wasn't biting down but was VERY mouthy!
The not biting down IS bite inhibition. If he had no bite inhibition, he would have been chomping chunks off your carcass...
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post #6 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-16-2013, 02:08 AM Thread Starter
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High drive puppy-help!

What works at night is "Soundscapes". We have music channels With our cable tv. This certain channel plays music that would be good for relaxing and meditation. Mainly harps, soft piano, flutes and space music.

I put her in her pen, she throws her crying tantrum for ten minutes. She falls asleep in her pen, then I sneak off into our room.

And yes, she is quite the terror!! I tell visitors to be careful, she's still puppy
Biting. My husband and I have bite marks on our hands and arms. Bites us in the butt too! I've been told to use penny cans or water bottles. But I'm sure there's another way. I rub her belly when she chews on her toy, trying to get her to understand that hands are not for only biting (or toys). we wear sweats, and socks so she doesn't get our legs and feet. Our older Doberman, I had to firmly put her in place when she was younger. She growled when picked up and grazed my face. We had one discussion one day, and she caught on. At her age of 7, she would never bite us. . Now, This little girl is real hard headed. She also does so many things my first dobie did (lost her in sept from bone cancer) that was unique.

My husband says notice how each Doberman we have is more challenging than the prior one? He's had about 5 in the past. We never had to ask for a trainer before.

Still wouldn't have any other breed. They've got such a heart of gold when they mature.






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post #7 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-16-2013, 02:16 AM
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Where do your other dogs sleep at night?
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post #8 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-16-2013, 02:30 AM Thread Starter
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High drive puppy-help!

We bury her poop where she tries to dig, that works. I now have poop irises, lol.

I tried to growl at her with my teeth, and she thinks in playing with her. And I Do growl like a dog and snap at her in the air(even roll my "R's" at her). She does it back to me. She talks back.

I bought her a harness, which I've been trying to lead her around the yard and house. She throws a fit still about the harness. She grabs the leash, and walks with me. I'm trying to get her to let go and walk with me. She gets her 4th shot and rabies in a week and a half. Until then, she's home bound. I do carry treats (wellness treats) when she does what I ask. I'm working with her everyday after work with coming to me on a leash and then sitting. She sits in front of me with her attention at me. Is there something more effective than a harness?

When she is restrained and she struggles, I hold onto her until she relaxes.she puts up a big fight and gets angry. But I don't release her until she fully relaxes, I don't give up. Then is when I release her.

When she gets too aggressive with biting, we put her in her pen to calm down or sleep. She has her spaz mode around 11 at night, most playful.

She's very smart, remembers where she puts her toys. I want to take advantage of it for training her. She needs a small job, but not sure where to start since we have an older Doberman that doesn't want to be left out.

I'm always open to suggestions.


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post #9 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-16-2013, 02:32 AM Thread Starter
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High drive puppy-help!

Older Doberman is in bed with us. Puppy is in her exercise pen at night in the living room. Our bed is too high for her right now.. We were thinking of taking our bed frame off, but not until I get her under control. When I fall asleep on the couch, I let her out in the middle of the night, then she sleeps on the couch with me.


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post #10 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-16-2013, 02:53 AM
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Quote:
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I tried to growl at her with my teeth, and she thinks in playing with her. And I Do growl like a dog and snap at her in the air(even roll my "R's" at her). She does it back to me. She talks back.

I bought her a harness, which I've been trying to lead her around the yard and house. She throws a fit still about the harness. She grabs the leash, and walks with me. I'm trying to get her to let go and walk with me. She gets her 4th shot and rabies in a week and a half. Until then, she's home bound. Is there something more effective than a harness?

When she is restrained and she struggles, I hold onto her until she relaxes.she puts up a big fight and gets angry. But I don't release her until she fully relaxes, I don't give up. Then is when I release her.

When she gets too aggressive with biting, we put her in her pen to calm down or sleep. She has her spaz mode around 11 at night, most playful.

I'm always open to suggestions.
If growling doesn't work... quit it. Try freezing.

In spite of whatever your vet said, this pup should have been out-and-about a month and a half ago. You have lost so much time! The window of socialization is closing... she needs to see trucks and automatic doors and elevators and cows and every shape/size/gender/age/race of person and dogs and and and... and, she needs to see and have positive interaction with all of that YESTERDAY.

Buy her a martingale collar and GO TO CLASS. You don't need a trainer in your house, you need your puppy out in the world. And, you need the class, too. Pick a good class. I would suggest finding an obedience training club which offers classes to the public. Or, if you post where you are, perhaps I could steer you to someone.

When you say she is at her most playful at 11:00 P.M., does that mean most bitey?

This is not a pup you are going to be able to come to terms with through antagonistic means, I don't think, at least not happily for everyone. I think you need to figure out what will win you cooperation, or you will not find that things will work out well.

That said, good for you for not releasing her until she relaxed LOL!
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post #11 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-16-2013, 02:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShellyBear View Post
Older Doberman is in bed with us. Puppy is in her exercise pen at night in the living room. Our bed is too high for her right now.. We were thinking of taking our bed frame off, but not until I get her under control. When I fall asleep on the couch, I let her out in the middle of the night, then she sleeps on the couch with me.
I really think that there is something to be said for communal sleeping as a pack bonding type of dealie. It must be hard for her to be ostracized, particularly when your other dog has the privilege of sleeping in your room. Does she have a crate that could go in your room? Could you lift her on to your bed? If when she sleeps on the couch with you, she does so all sweet and Doberman-cuddley, I suspect that not only does she need that but that it might do something good for your relationship with her.
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post #12 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-16-2013, 02:59 AM
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High drive puppy-help!

How much exercise does she get?


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post #13 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-16-2013, 03:30 AM Thread Starter
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High drive puppy-help!

We'll work on freezing when she bites. kind of hard when she grabs my foot or leg. you know how puppy teeth feel.
Ill also look into a martingale.
I can train her the basic commands at home. I'm trying to leash train her at night after work and my day off. Then I'll socialize her. I want her vaccinated enough before I bring her in public. She's had her three sets of shots so far. I stopped going to the dog park because of irresponsible people. Too many dog fights.

She is fine during the day. Plays with her toys and our older Doberman. I play ball with her after work until she gets bored or tired.









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post #14 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-16-2013, 03:53 AM Thread Starter
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High drive puppy-help!

I have never had to crate train my dogs at home before. But, they both were fine in a crate at the groomers. So, I possibly need to get one for her, or a larger ex pen. My older dog is bothered at times when the pup is in her face too much. She shows her teeth and snaps at the pup, and the pup thinks she wants to play sometimes.!then I put the puppy in her pen to chill out. I'm sure she will try to dominate our older dog someday. My older dobe is sometimes too passive with her.

Both our dobermans used to sleep in our bed. Then the oldest one decided to sleep in the living room. Then the younger one decided to be alpha. Had separate feeding areas, etc. she didnt like the older one in our bed anymore. It wasn't until the older one got bone cancer and I made her sleep on a bed next to us, the younger one allowed it. The younger one knew she was sick and never bothered her older sister again. She was beside her every minute she could. Slept in her sisters bed after she left us.

Since she left us in sept, she became lonesome. We got a puppy a few months later, and it took a few weeks to realize this puppy was permanent. The bond between the two grew.

I'll be honest, I'm a little nervous how she'll react with the puppy in our bed. We have to take the frame off. Don't want any injuries. The puppy is always gung-ho about jumping off furniture. We do want her in bed.





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post #15 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-16-2013, 03:57 AM Thread Starter
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High drive puppy-help!

She plays all day long. Husband is a stay at home father. She bites him sometimes when she's playing with her toys. I come home and completely ignore her until she calms down. Then I acknowledge her after that. We play ball for maybe 20 minutes or so. She takes naps during the day and night too.


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post #16 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-16-2013, 04:29 AM
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So, how much of the time is she actually a problem child? Just at night, when she's tired?

She is PLENTY vaccinated enough to go out everywhere! I teach puppy classes, and I graduate puppies from their first six week session at the age your pup is now! The single largest threat to an owned young dog's life in this country is being euthanized for temperament issues, and the most common cause of temperament issues is improper or inadequate socialization... seriously.

My last pup came to me at ten and a half weeks, unvaccinated, from a natural-rearing breeder... she had been attending dog shows since she was four weeks old (set up in a puppy pen far from everything, but she could see and hear and smell)... I am more chicken than her breeder (who does not vaccinate at all), and chose to vaccinate her at 11 and 14 weeks with DHPP only and she was DONE, except for rabies. My pups go in the car to someplace probably six days out of seven starting right when I get them... and, not for a ride, but to a place they can get out and see stuff and do stuff and have an adventure... if they are unvaccinated, I do not go where there are dogs, yet, unless they will be friends' dogs I know to be healthy... I do a first vaccination late enough that it should take (10 - 11 weeks) and a few days after that I am less cautious but still careful... after the second vaccine, they are good to go anywhere. Taking a tiny risk to have a properly-built dog that will be a pleasure for years is a better deal, to me, than aiming for zero-risk and having years with a dog with issues I have to manage and try to fix for the rest of our time together.
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post #17 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-16-2013, 10:06 AM
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haha that last pic is too cute, even if she is bad dog in it!
I have no advice, but wanted to say good luck and she is totally cute!

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post #18 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-16-2013, 10:21 AM
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I have to admit to only skimming, so please forgive me if any of this has already been suggested. Anyway, my Rowan was a pretty bold puppy and VERY high energy with difficulty learning how to settle...especially around other dogs. It sounds like a few things might help in your case. If puppy is playing all day, maybe there needs to be a bit more structure. If you allow a puppy to amp up, it is very hard for them to regulate themselves and come back down on their own. When you notice her starting to rev up, I would call her out of play and start doing some training/commands with her.

Also, if you haven't already, think about giving clicker training a try. With Rowan I found this so successful, and I think a big part of it is due to his personality. He is a "what's in it for me" type of dog, so I feel like teaching with the clicker put the ball in his court, so to speak. He felt in control and this made him much more eager and interested in learning. Now if I bring the clicker out I get his attention pretty much immediately, no matter how exciting the distractions can be.

I also echo mmctaq's recommendation to socialize the puppy. With our new pup we started taking her out places before her second shots, but would not go to high traffic/dog places or put her down. We let her meet/greet other dogs that we know, and started her in puppy classes last week (at 12 weeks).

All dogs are different and what works well for one might not for another, so IMO you have to try to find the strategy that fits best with your dog.

Oh, and not sure what the recommended feeding amounts are, but if I read that correctly, it sounds like you are feeding her 6 cups of food a day? That seems like a lot to me.


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post #19 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-16-2013, 11:02 AM
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I agree with Martha - this pup needs to be out in the world! She sounds bored and underexercised. Have you asked your breeder for advice?


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post #20 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-16-2013, 11:13 AM
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So far as the biting goes, I think that redirection is going to be your best bet. Have toys on you at all times, and in different parts of the house, so that if she's getting ready to chomp, you can pull a switcheroo and have her chomping on something you want her to bite...rope toy, whatever. Make it seem like the Best and MOST EXCITING thing ever when she's chewing on something appropriate. Make it totally boring when she isn't.

Personally, I'd stop trying to hold her down, hold your head over hers, etc. It sounds as though it isn't really working for her, is very frustrating for you, and puts your face/neck/hair/ears in prime Dobershark territory.

She also sounds to me like she needs some structure. If she's able to play all day, she doesn't know that there's a time to stop playing. There should be playtime, outside time, nap time, training time, etc. I definitely agree with the suggestion to use a clicker! Working with my girl with a clicker was a lot of fun (once I realized how to do it and what it was for), and we've trained both useful behaviors and just cute ones using it.

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post #21 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-16-2013, 11:36 AM
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Cute pictures...but unless you want your dog to continue to counter surf, you shouldn't stop to take a picture before you correct the behavior! LOL Even if it was a good photo opportunity, which it was. :p

Seriously though...I'll just echo what everyone else said. Your pup needs some serious training, no matter which method you choose. And socialize and exercise...a tired pup is a good pup. Good luck!
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post #22 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-16-2013, 02:00 PM
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Something I haven't had to do for a long long time when a pup won't quit biting is this.

If they chomp down on my hand, I push my hand into their mouth further until they can't actually bite down and I leave it there until they withdraw. I do this until they stop and it hasn't taken much other than a few skinned knuckles. All very slow and quiet and relaxed - I make a fist of my hand to protect the fingers.

I have a dog that has seizures and after one when I have to medicate him, he is just as likely to bite right thru my hand as not (I have had this happen several times). Now I open his mouth and put my fist in there sideways and use my legs to support his head while I place the pills he needs to take at the back of his mouth. I don't force it, just prop it open as wide as I can get it and then he doesn't have the power to chew right thru my fingers and nails (I have lost a few nails but I am proof that they grow back fine provided the nail bed hasn't been damaged). I don't turn my fist sideways for a puppy though. And never force the mouth hard - they open their mouths very easily.
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post #23 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-16-2013, 04:37 PM
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Im sorry if I missed it but have you ever just given her a toy and tugged on it when she gets bitey? My wild child is a Vizsla. She has hung off my butt cheek by clothing before. Just today at 7 months. I YELLED to my husband to grab her as I saw her bite the clothing of our neighbor 3/4 the way UP his back. She gets over aroused very easy. She was a horrible biter until about 4 months. I would give her a toy and engage her in the toy. If that didn't work, she went in her crate. I also spent time with her being QUIET and rewarding QUIET.

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post #24 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-16-2013, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adara View Post
Im sorry if I missed it but have you ever just given her a toy and tugged on it when she gets bitey? My wild child is a Vizsla. She has hung off my butt cheek by clothing before. Just today at 7 months. I YELLED to my husband to grab her as I saw her bite the clothing of our neighbor 3/4 the way UP his back. She gets over aroused very easy. She was a horrible biter until about 4 months. I would give her a toy and engage her in the toy. If that didn't work, she went in her crate. I also spent time with her being QUIET and rewarding QUIET.
I know I've said it before, but I'm saying it again. I am pretty darn sure that Bruce and Envy are siblings from another mother . What you described is my wild man to a T. His biting is MUCH better than it was, but at almost 6 mths, when he gets wound up...look out. Once excited he is bitey, his inhibition is pretty good now, but it still doesn't feel good.

I make sure I exercise and train the crap out of him lol. A tired puppy is a happy puppy. He gets an hour of off leash run time every day, around an hour (broken up usually, and sometimes more) of solid training, a 30 min evening walk or so, and play time with the hubby...every day. As long as I work him and train him every day he is pretty good, if I don't (like the last 2 days because he split a pad on his foot) then he is a wild bitey child.

I agree, OP, that you can take it up a few notches with the training. At 4 months Bruce had already learned look, sit, down, stay, off, touch, leave it, give it, shake, come (at 6 mths his recall is pretty solid), and his loose leash walking was coming along very nicely (there are more commands but I'm blanking on them right now). I've taken him everywhere since his second DHPP booster at (around) 12 weeks, socializing, training in strange places etc.

-Shelley, Bruce, and Annie
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post #25 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-16-2013, 05:46 PM
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I had the same problem with Echo, the only thing that worked was me leaving the room anytime he tried to bite me eventually it stopped.

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