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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-16-2010, 07:20 PM Thread Starter
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He's turning mean!

He was always a barker. This is nothing new. But I could turn it off. As he's gotten older, he's gotten mellow. He's about 8 months now, unaltered. He growls at people he knows, he'll bite everyone but me, and even then he still nips out of aggression. I can tell by his bark he's super serious when he gets upset, but the people I see all day don't believe he'd actually bite them and I know for an astounding fact that he will. I'm thinking it's just a phase and he's practicing, or he's just very tired from the long days we have. He's not bad off leash either. His seperation anxiety is one thing we're dealing with now in what I call a "free world" environment. It also turns out he has some wolf/shepard in him. I take risks calling his bluff because I can as his owner, but it's frustrating because it slows down his service training. He's becoming overly protective and I'm scared that he's going to turn unruly. If he does, then I'm not sure what to do with him from there. I have heard of people dealing with similar issues, and it's not a concern to me, it's just he barks SO LOUD and I can't get him to stop most of the time. It's really upsetting. However, I think that with time he'll phase out of this too, I'm really not sure...
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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-16-2010, 07:38 PM
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1. What service training?

2. Don't put your friends in a situation where they could get bit.

3. Get him neutered if it is not absolutely necessary to keep him intact.

4. Call your breeder and inquire about how to fix/work with him.

5. Get with a professional trainer that specializes in this (this should be number 1 actually).


Erynn
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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-16-2010, 07:41 PM
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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-16-2010, 07:50 PM
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Ohh, My Dog Doesnt Bark, is that bad? he never barks even when he sees other dogs, and hes never been socialized hes only met 2 dogs, he sees alot of people cuz different people come to my house and i take him everywhere but he never barks
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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-16-2010, 08:07 PM
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#1 I think he's going thru doberteens
#2 If he were my dog he'd have to earn every single thing he gets in life including petting.
NO furniture. <---(this worked wonders on our girl)

also pushy head butts for affection are brushed off/ignored. Affection is given on YOUR terms.
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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-16-2010, 08:14 PM
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I hope you are correcting this behavior and not saying, "it's okay... shhh"...

big mistake people make which really escalates problems quickly.

how does he react when you correct him (if you do). if he listens to you, I'd put him on a prong and correct this behavior immediately.
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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-16-2010, 08:24 PM Thread Starter
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I think it's just a phase too. Every time he goes through a phase, it's the same but more serious than the last one.

When I scold him, he simply turns his head away so I can't make eye contact and then sometimes he keeps barking and other times he'll just growl for a long time.

The one thing that pisses me off is when I go in a store and I leave him outside, store owners and people alike would get mad at me for him being noisy. I try to explain to people that they're only making things worse for me (and later worse for them) because he's only getting bigger and louder, not smaller.

I think it's a phase too, just because sometimes he doesn't do it at all, I think he gets cranky when he's tired. Only me and my boyfriend can be in his food bubble, meaning, if he's eating, anyone who is not me or him will be shooed away or worse. So I only feed him when no one is there.

Unfortunately, the phone that has the number to his parents got stolen so I can't call them, and I can't afford to pay for a trainer in aggressive dogs.

He's not aggressive at dog parks or on the way to places, it's just when I sit down that no one can come near.
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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-16-2010, 08:38 PM
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elsa used to make a HUGE deal of people coming to the house. She'd be growling and barking most of the time people were visiting.

this kind of behavior needs to be nipped in the butt as soon as possible or it will escalate.

I put Elsa on a prong and corrected her when she was growling and barking at people in the house that were no threat to her. Then, when calm, I let the new stranger give her a cookie and praise the calm behavior with GOOD GIRL!

She is wonderful in the house with new people now. She growls and barks when someone is outside the house, but once they are welcomed into our home, she settles within 10 minutes of checking them out and making sure they are of no threat.
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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-16-2010, 09:03 PM
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Define "bite" please. Is he breaking the skin, clamping down, or is it more of a "hit" with the teeth?

I somehow have a hard time believing you'd let a dog that "bites everyone but you" be around other people - I wouldn't. Nipping is another story and excited mouthing not knowing how big your teeth are as well ...

Please work with a trainer, this is a pretty crucial phase. (Please listen to someone who goofed a lot of things up DURING that very phase!!!!)
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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-16-2010, 09:20 PM
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I told myself not to post but I can't resist. Why are you leaving your dog outside of a business unattended? Aren't you the person that use to let it wander around in video stores while you played games? I am sorry but you are setting that poor dog up for abuse. Especially in your area. Last but not least WHY is he not neutered?
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post #11 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-16-2010, 09:43 PM
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This dog is sending out big red flags with more coming for you if not addressed quickly. I would suggest neutering him right away as he sounds like he is a pet and this dominance aggression will only escalate if you delay. Seek the advice of a dog behavioralist about you being the head of the pack at all times around this dog.

He may even need to be on leash in the house with you so you can get corrections on him immediately. Timing is very important when providing guidance to the dog. Use words like "Stop it!" not "no". I also like "Knock it off!" You may have to hold his muzzle (not too tight though) and stare him in the face when you give him these corrections. You can repeat the command and hold him; make sure he's paying attention to what you are asking of him. Be firm but fair and get on top of this immediately. Make him work for every piece of food you give him; waiting at the door before you tell him its OK to go outside. Go through the door first before your dog; make him wait for the leader.

Good luck, Tracy


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post #12 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-16-2010, 10:01 PM
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I agree with what everyone is telling you. I cant believe you would leave this dog outside a store or have others over when you are worried about it biting someone. Also if you have a lot of people coming over use it as a training tool for your pup. Make him sit when people are entering correct the aggressive behavior and when calm reward tell him to greet of course the person should totally ignore the dog and let it sniff and then slowly offer a treat. If your dog should bite someone do you know what the consequences are? I promise it will not be in the favor of your pup. If you cant afford a trainer get some books from the library especially if you can find one on NILIF (nothing in life is free).


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post #13 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-16-2010, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitz.kara View Post
I hope you are correcting this behavior and not saying, "it's okay... shhh"...

big mistake people make which really escalates problems quickly.

how does he react when you correct him (if you do). if he listens to you, I'd put him on a prong and correct this behavior immediately.
Fitz. Um. Yeah.

You looking to get someone badly bitten?

Sorry, but please, it's just not cool, or safe to tell folks over the 'net, to physically correct a dog that is acting out.

We have NO idea of her level of experience, her ability to read a dog, her ability to properly manage and correct the dog, her ability to correctly use a prong (assuming that's even what the dog needs)--either she or the dog could wind up badly hurt, or both of them could.

Cosmo, I went and looked up your introduction here, as I wasn't familiar with the backstory: https://www.dobermantalk.com/puppy-co...tml#post544862

I know you mention you have Asperger's and I just want to make sure you know my intent is to be factual and to help. The situation you describe is high-risk for injury to humans and/or the dog.

A dog that is this reactive to other humans, one that is this possessive of you--he is resource guarding you--is NOT appropriate for service work.

Due respect, a lot of the things you say in your OP on this thread don't seem to be founded in solid knowledge of canine behavior.

You either need professional humane training to keep this dog safely as a pet, or you need to find some other solution that will keep both dog and humans safe.

Again, this dog should NOT be working in public. You are legally liable for any bite this dog might inflict on anyone, and besides that, the dog will likely be court-ordered to be euth'd if that occurs--and I know you love the dog, and do not want to see it come to that.




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post #14 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-16-2010, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonman View Post
This dog is sending out big red flags with more coming for you if not addressed quickly. I would suggest neutering him right away as he sounds like he is a pet and this dominance aggression will only escalate if you delay. Seek the advice of a dog behavioralist about you being the head of the pack at all times around this dog.

He may even need to be on leash in the house with you so you can get corrections on him immediately. Timing is very important when providing guidance to the dog. Use words like "Stop it!" not "no". I also like "Knock it off!" You may have to hold his muzzle (not too tight though) and stare him in the face when you give him these corrections. You can repeat the command and hold him; make sure he's paying attention to what you are asking of him. Be firm but fair and get on top of this immediately. Make him work for every piece of food you give him; waiting at the door before you tell him its OK to go outside. Go through the door first before your dog; make him wait for the leader.

Good luck, Tracy
Accidentally skipped this post.

Again, I would just say we on DT need to take care advising a handler with Asperger's to use prongs, grab muzzles, stare an aggressing dog in the eye, etc, etc.




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post #15 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-16-2010, 10:16 PM
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If you want to have a "safe" pet you should absolutely consult the advice of a trainer or behaviorist. However you have to dig up the money - make it happen by any way humanly possible. Email them to see if they'll offer some kind of discount, especially if you are a student.

Your dog sounds like a serious liability and I agree that he should NEVER be left unattended in public - unless you want him taken away by animal control and yourself in a big mess of legal trouble.

Please, PLEASE don't leave this dog loose around people you think he may bite!


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post #16 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-16-2010, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmo View Post
It also turns out he has some wolf/shepard in him.
I overlooked this bit - what, exactly, does your dog look like? Wolf hybrids are NOT something a novice dog owner needs to be taking on ... yikes! Even GSD/Doberman can be a pretty strong combination and hard to work with ... you really, really need to consult someone who knows what they are doing.

I am saying this because I know - because I know I bit off more than I could chew with this dog, which is only slowly turning around now after four years - what this is like ... and I don't think our problem was quite as severe as yours sounds like it may be.

Please keep us posted and be very careful with what you do. Also please realize this is a HUGE responsibility and will be a lot of work ... I couldn't have imagined this four years ago.

Regarding bite levels (I referred to this before), please read this:
Sirius Dog Training
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post #17 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-16-2010, 11:46 PM
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Hi Cosmo - It's good to see you again... but I am concerned that each time you post a new thread, it seems as if Cosmo is getting a bit more out of control. I really do think you ought to have him neutered ASAP, and see if there's any way you can participate in classes, so you and he have guidance in a group setting. I don't think it's a good idea to tie him up outside of stores or libraries - it's a recipe for trouble - sounds as if he's too insecure and unstable. If he learns to fear and mistrust strangers, he is not going to be much good to you as a service dog.

I know you can't do the private trainer or behaviorist, so please do look up as much info as you can, online and in the library, and work with Cosmo to stop his seemingly antisocial and inappropriate behaviors.

Also, are you living outside, or do you have a stable home? If you are not in a stable environment, a dog like a Dobe or a wolf hybrid might have a harder time than some other breeds who are a bit more adaptable to unconventional lifestyles. I wish you much success in your dedication to training him right.


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post #18 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-17-2010, 12:04 AM
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Oh boy I skimmed over the wolf/shep mention too.
BAD skimmer!

argh

/disregard my earlier post
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post #19 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-17-2010, 12:26 AM
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Even if you cant afford a trainer that works with "agressive" dogs, you need to get him into a basic obedience or puppy class.
Honestly i probably should not have brought Saphire home since i was totally broke working for minimum wage and living in an expensive apartment(because there are NO cheap apartments where i am).
I managed to muster up the $115 that it cost for a basic obedience class.
You need to figure out where you can cut your costs and save up your pennies for aan obedience class or even just an initial consult with a behaviorist to get some ideas on WHY this is happening- is it fear is it flat out agression?
Fitx- not to call you out again but i wouldnt recc a prong if someone doesnt know how to use it. The sole purpose i got a prong was for walking saph and i was never "taught" how to use it, rendering it now a useless tool since the corrections dont phase Saph, also if this dog is being reactive, there is a huge chance for redirected agression towards the owner- then what?

So my point is save up some cash borrow some money from someone and get the dog into some kind of obedience class or a consult at least with a behaviourist.

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post #20 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-17-2010, 01:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFawnRising View Post
Fitz. Um. Yeah.

You looking to get someone badly bitten?

Sorry, but please, it's just not cool, or safe to tell folks over the 'net, to physically correct a dog that is acting out.

We have NO idea of her level of experience, her ability to read a dog, her ability to properly manage and correct the dog, her ability to correctly use a prong (assuming that's even what the dog needs)--either she or the dog could wind up badly hurt, or both of them could.
I totally agree. that's why I asked her how the dog reacts to her corrections... but it's true that you have no idea what this dog or owner is capable of, so I should be careful of what advice to give.

I don't take back what I said about putting a dog on a prong for that behavior though... I did not do that with Elsa until I had her for a while and knew how she would react to my corrections, but I didn't want the behavior to escalate. and it didn't.

I think it's important to give rewards and positive training too... I hope my previous post didn't come off the wrong way.

you are totally right that EVERY dog and EVERY owner are different, and I would hate for something bad to happen because I gave advice of my similar situation, and the person did it wrong or the dog reacted aggressively.
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post #21 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-17-2010, 01:20 AM
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Well this will be another bad rap for those who truly need assistance dogs in the end. Phase? Really? Best of luck to you.


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post #22 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-17-2010, 02:48 AM
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I looked at your other posts, and this one. With your current path, your dog will not phase out of this. Without a mentor to guide you through the process, the situation will get worse. If you can't get help, please consider finding another home for your dog. There are too many problems and red flags for this problem to be solved by just getting advice online. You describe a dog that is very close to biting someone, and potentially the dog will be euthanized. If you get help you maybe fine. But, if you don't, someone could get hurt and the dog could get put down. I do understand the financial pressure, but you do need to think about the long term. If you cannot find help, please find a home that can.
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post #23 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-17-2010, 10:05 AM
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Cosmo - try contacting a local animal shelter or rescue that offers obedience classes or has trainers on staff. I know our local Humane Society does. Tell them your situation and they may be able to help.

I agree this is not a phase and is likely to escalate.


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post #24 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-17-2010, 11:20 AM
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You have some great advice here, I would listen very carefully to what has been said.

I would also like to point out from personal experience that finding a trainer to work with you is not that difficult. I worked off my consultation and a few hours work with the trainer I worked with initially by helping her with other dogs and helping her clean out her garage.

I'm not saying you will be able to fall into that scenario, but please don't look at the whole idea of a trainer and immediately drop it because you don't have the cash. There are many out there who can help you, even if you are cash strapped.



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post #25 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-17-2010, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmo View Post
He's about 8 months now, unaltered. He growls at people he knows, he'll bite everyone but me, and even then he still nips out of aggression. I can tell by his bark he's super serious when he gets upset, but the people I see all day don't believe he'd actually bite them and I know for an astounding fact that he will. I'm thinking it's just a phase and he's practicing, or he's just very tired from the long days we have.
I don't see it as normal for an 8 month old puppy to be biting out of aggression. Barking is one thing, growling is one thing, but actually biting is an entirely different game, and NOT a phase. You say he has even bitten you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmo View Post
He's not bad off leash either.
It is your responsibility to control your dog so that he doesn't bite other people. A dog like this is doesn't have any self control and should absolutely not be let off leash outside of your backyard, OR left alone outside a store!! Ask anyone, I am a huge off-leash advocate but no way, no how with this kind of a dog.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmo View Post
He's becoming overly protective and I'm scared that he's going to turn unruly. If he does, then I'm not sure what to do with him from there. I have heard of people dealing with similar issues, and it's not a concern to me, it's just he barks SO LOUD and I can't get him to stop most of the time. It's really upsetting. However, I think that with time he'll phase out of this too, I'm really not sure...
He already is unruly. I also am curious as to what kind of service dog he is. Will go back and read your other posts. Service dogs need to have a rock-solid temperaments and go through very specific, extensive training. And there should be zero people aggression. You can't just call any dog a service dog...

I am really concerned for you and your dog. Others here have given you a few ideas re: getting a trainer on board with you. I don't think this is something you can handle on your own - of course I don't know you but the fact that his underlying temperament is such, and that his behavior is escalating are not good signs. Some dogs are difficult even for very experienced owners.

Please please please find a way to work with an individual trainer. I rarely say this but if you cannot find a way to do this, I strongly encourage you to do what's best for Cosmo and find him a home who can work with him before it's too late.

At the very least, please stop giving him off-lead privileges and leaving him outside stores unsupervised.

I also second the NILIF suggestions... but honestly, that's just the beginning. Reading body language is very, very important with this kind of thing. And with Asperger's this is going to be much more difficult for you.

I really wish the best for you... please keep us updated!

Erica



Last edited by bean; 03-17-2010 at 01:22 PM.
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