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post #26 of 54 (permalink) Old 05-29-2020, 12:05 PM
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EWWWW. *I* think it's gross. My husband and the dogs are welcome to fight over it! (He's pretty much 100% German!)
The husband also loves it. He calls it Scooby Snacks, and Rip gets a little whenever he buys it.

It's gross to me, though!

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post #27 of 54 (permalink) Old 05-29-2020, 12:16 PM
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Ha ha, braunschweiger is quite literally the only way I will voluntarily eat liver. And I don't share with the dogs. It's mine, all MINE!

And yeah, I might have just a *touch* of resource guarding when it comes to braunschweiger.
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post #28 of 54 (permalink) Old 05-29-2020, 12:54 PM
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I will do almost anything for bacon!!
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post #29 of 54 (permalink) Old 05-30-2020, 10:53 AM Thread Starter
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Ok guys, hello to everyone, quick update. I have been training her in the house and she is doing EXCELLENT. she will sit, stay and come to me in the hallways of the house. I just strated using the prong collar yesterday and that is going very well so far. I brought her in the backyard to do some traning for the day and it was impossible. All she wanted to do was play. She would run and run, not listen for anything. So I played with her for like 30 min but still did not want to listen, even took the ball. No help.
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post #30 of 54 (permalink) Old 05-30-2020, 11:20 AM
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Ok guys, hello to everyone, quick update. I have been training her in the house and she is doing EXCELLENT. she will sit, stay and come to me in the hallways of the house. I just strated using the prong collar yesterday and that is going very well so far. I brought her in the backyard to do some traning for the day and it was impossible. All she wanted to do was play. She would run and run, not listen for anything. So I played with her for like 30 min but still did not want to listen, even took the ball. No help.
Hi Gnfanatic,

You need to bear in mind that the first rule in dog training is that dogs do not generalize well.

This always comes as a total shock to new trainers when the dog they have doing everything like 'sit, stay, down, come" are perfect in the house but the minute they take the dog to a class or anyplace except the house the dog is an amazing embarrassment who appears to have never heard any of these commands.

The answer to this particular problem is to keep the dog on leash. Start slowly take the dog to someplace familiar (like the back yard) and start the training process all over there--as if the dogs knew nothing--when the dog knows and responds to the training and the commands in both the house and the yard--move out to the driveway or the sidewalk in front of the house--rinse and repeat.

When I'm training a dog for competition in Obedience or Rally I spend far more time taking the dog places he's never been and working him there through his commands. Eventually they 'get' that sit means sit no matter where you are.

Getting the dog in a class is helpful to further the training process.

Good luck--and have fun while you are doing it.

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post #31 of 54 (permalink) Old 05-30-2020, 11:49 AM Thread Starter
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hen I'm training a dog for competition in Obedience or Rally I spend far more time taking the dog places he's never been and working him there through his commands. Eventually they 'get' that sit means sit no matter where you are.

Never thought of tht, thank you do much!
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post #32 of 54 (permalink) Old 05-30-2020, 11:50 AM
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In addition to what Bug said, three things we talk about often in dog training are Distance, Duration, and Distraction.

Dogs (and puppies especially!), are going to struggle each time you increase the distance you work at, the duration of a behavior that you expect, and the amount of distraction around them. When you go from inside the house (low distraction), to outdoors, you've MASSIVELY increased the amount of distraction! That means you really, really need to DECREASE the duration of the behavior you expect, and the distance away you are from the dog in order to get success. The three things all work together. So, if a dog can hold a "down" for 30 seconds indoors with you 2 feet away, she may only be able to do it for 5 seconds when outdoors with you 1 foot away, because the distraction level has gone WAY up (you need to decrease both distance (away from her) and duration expected, because of the very high level of distraction! And some behaviors may simply not be possible because they aren't trained enough yet.

Setting reasonable expectations and setting your dog up to succeed are really important.

If you haven't been in any group classes yet, I find them really, really important. Because of the pandemic, you may not be able to right now. If you can, I would! If you can't, I'd look into whether you can find an online class right now. Having a good trainer to support and guide you is SO important. We have some great online puppy classes I can recommend near me (it wouldn't matter that you aren't local, because they are online ). There are some other good online resources, too. If you haven't found your way to Kikopup's training channel, it's a good free resource. The Fenzi Academy is good. But I would definitely look for just a good, basic training class to get you started.
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post #33 of 54 (permalink) Old 05-30-2020, 12:11 PM
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My suggestion is this, set your dog up for success.
Like right now you know you can accomplish basic sit-down,stays,come while inside the house.
Thats great !
Now while remaining inside the house work with use of repetition,repetition,repetition, bond with your pup during these sessions.
Just this creates a strong relationship and bond.
As time goes by this loyalty will evolve into a desire to please you. So teaching becomes easier for you and your pup as you grow together.
Seriously going outside for a young pup can be quite distracting because shoot its exciting and new.
Just like little human kids we encourage them in special ways when they please us so identify what your dog LOVES the most and that the reward.
Might be food....might be a toy, whatever the dog loves the most.
Dogs will do just about anything if its worth it, so, make it worth it.
Only the owners will know what those things are that motivate our dogs the best.
Hold tight before going outside for training.
Sometimes repetition is the only way to for us “the humans” to know .. ......that the dog truly understands what is expected or him/or her.
Once you the human really senses that The dog understands the task thats when you take baby steps as Dobebug was mentioning when proceeding outside.
So much fun to have a pup around hoping to hear from you again soon.
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post #34 of 54 (permalink) Old 05-30-2020, 12:37 PM Thread Starter
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Thank guys, I am still looking into class options as well. You are definitely right about distractions out doors. She hears everything and anything, pretty amazing! I will start training with the leash outside and see how it goes. BTW, the prong collar is only for stopping a dog from pulling when walking or can you use it for all sorts of training?
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post #35 of 54 (permalink) Old 05-30-2020, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnfanatic View Post
Thank guys, I am still looking into class options as well. You are definitely right about distractions out doors. She hears everything and anything, pretty amazing! I will start training with the leash outside and see how it goes. BTW, the prong collar is only for stopping a dog from pulling when walking or can you use it for all sorts of training?
I personally don't prefer a prong on a puppy.

I use it to walk adults. I don't use it for any other kind of training. I find it so much more successful to show a dog what you want them TO do instead of simply correcting them for what you don't want them to do. Additionally, it's really unfair to a dog to correct them for a behavior they haven't learned how to perform. A puppy has NOT learned behaviors yet.

You'll have a happy, engaged dog who wants to learn if you use reward based training right now to reinforce the behaviors you like. Using corrections early on can really shut down a puppy and hinder your training.
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post #36 of 54 (permalink) Old 05-30-2020, 01:08 PM
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I think this girl has the right idea. Just wanted to share.

If you opt for use of a prong collar make sure you “the human” have been educated in proper use of this training tool.
Prongs can be good BUT if you do not know what you are doing they can cause many problems.
Never let anyone handle your dog while on a prong collar if they do not know what they are doing.
Some think its a tool for correction but it is not.
So if you really study proper use of that tool (prong collar) its all about applying light pressure to the neck until they comply with your command.
The prong collar could be great for teaching dog to come to you as you work inside the house.
But study proper use first ....then use the prong safely.
You will see what I mean when you study prong collars in detail.

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post #37 of 54 (permalink) Old 05-30-2020, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyDi View Post


I think this girl has the right idea. Just wanted to share.

If you opt for use of a prong collar make sure you “the human” have been educated in proper use of this training tool.
Prongs can be good BUT if you do not know what you are doing they can cause many problems.
Never let anyone handle your dog while on a prong collar if they do not know what they are doing.
Some think its a tool for correction but it is not.
So if you really study proper use of that tool (prong collar) its all about applying light pressure to the neck until they comply with your command.
The prong collar could be great for teaching dog to come to you as you work inside the house.
But study proper use first ....then use the prong safely.
You will see what I mean when you study prong collars in detail.
I have to disagree, Di. The prong is a tool for correction. We can say it isn't, but it is. The degree to which it an aversive to a dog varies. My own dogs find a head halter (like a gentle leader) far more aversive than a prong collar.

I am not saying it's inappropriate to ever use a prong. However, I DO think we have to "own" the tool we are using. If we don't we risk overusing it, or inappropriately using it. A good trainer understands the tools they are using and how they affect a dog.

This is exactly why I wouldn't every use a prong collar to train recall.

It's also why, when I train puppies, that my training is very, very positive.

Again, people can train how they want. I'm merely explaining the WHY of how I do things.


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post #38 of 54 (permalink) Old 05-30-2020, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
I have to disagree, Di. The prong is a tool for correction. We can say it isn't, but it is. The degree to which it an aversive to a dog varies. My own dogs find a head halter (like a gentle leader) far more aversive than a prong collar.

I am not saying it's inappropriate to ever use a prong. However, I DO think we have to "own" the tool we are using. If we don't we risk overusing it, or inappropriately using it. A good trainer understands the tools they are using and how they affect a dog.

This is exactly why I wouldn't every use a prong collar to train recall.

It's also why, when I train puppies, that my training is very, very positive.

Again, people can train how they want. I'm merely explaining the WHY of how I do things.

MC I agree that we do have to own the tools we are using so I encourage education on prong use.
It appears a prong is a new tool for this owner.
IMO if this owner really studies the proper use of prong they will learn many things that will benefit the owner as well as the dog.
So if they are going to use it anyway best to encourage education and/or good techniques of prong use.
Including when and where the tool might be appropriate.
Just another opinion.

Hoss
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post #39 of 54 (permalink) Old 05-30-2020, 07:54 PM
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I played all the treat games and the praise and the running away when SE was young. And at training one day (we trained next to a very busy hwy with no fence) And one day I asked for a recall and she came halfway and stopped. I gave the Here command again and she looked at me and took off and wouldn't come back and wouldn't come to anyone. She got next to the hwy and I just knew I was going to scrap her off the pavement. I started running towards my car and saying Let's go, Let's go and she barreled for the car and jumped in her crate. I was very, very, very lucky! It could of ended very tragically. My trainer was furious. I was informed that we could have had that incident controlled in 1 second had she had a training collar on and it would take 4 months to correct this mistake. And it did. We went to an E collar after that. You can say what you will about e collar training but if it is used properly, it is a godsend. I don't recommend training with one unless you have someone experienced in using it helping you. Our first lesson was with two people and a long line. I held the long line and he held the remote. The long line was to ensure she didn't get away again. I gave the command and she got the correction if she didn't come to me immediately. And she learned very quickly that I was the safe place. I can now call her off rabbits, dogs whatever. She keeps her listening ears on. Haven't used the ecollar in over a year and a half. And I can confidently go places and not have to worry about her freedom. But it took a long time. I would not use one on a very young dog but I also wouldn't let one off a long line until I knew she had it down. The level on the remote was a one and it went all the way to a 10 but we never went over a one. I NEVER want to experience that run away feeling again. It was pure panic when she wouldn't come. I used a prong collar and a harness in training her for different venues she worked in. SE had so much socialization that it was hard for her to look at a helper as a bad thing. I loved the venue though and we gave it a shot. I will say the obedience levels for the sport I was training her for had so much more intensity compared to AKC obedience. And it showed. SE cleaned house at AKC events because of the intensity.
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post #40 of 54 (permalink) Old 05-31-2020, 07:22 AM
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https://zenandtheartofdog.com/the-tr...prong-collars/

Good morning GN!

Written article for you but scroll down and watch the video ...lots of good prong tips in the area of pressure..if you plan to use this tool.

Hoss

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post #41 of 54 (permalink) Old 05-31-2020, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
In addition to what Bug said, three things we talk about often in dog training are Distance, Duration, and Distraction.

Dogs (and puppies especially!), are going to struggle each time you increase the distance you work at, the duration of a behavior that you expect, and the amount of distraction around them. When you go from inside the house (low distraction), to outdoors, you've MASSIVELY increased the amount of distraction! That means you really, really need to DECREASE the duration of the behavior you expect, and the distance away you are from the dog in order to get success. The three things all work together. So, if a dog can hold a "down" for 30 seconds indoors with you 2 feet away, she may only be able to do it for 5 seconds when outdoors with you 1 foot away, because the distraction level has gone WAY up (you need to decrease both distance (away from her) and duration expected, because of the very high level of distraction! And some behaviors may simply not be possible because they aren't trained enough yet.

Setting reasonable expectations and setting your dog up to succeed are really important.

If you haven't been in any group classes yet, I find them really, really important. Because of the pandemic, you may not be able to right now. If you can, I would! If you can't, I'd look into whether you can find an online class right now. Having a good trainer to support and guide you is SO important. We have some great online puppy classes I can recommend near me (it wouldn't matter that you aren't local, because they are online ). There are some other good online resources, too. If you haven't found your way to Kikopup's training channel, it's a good free resource. The Fenzi Academy is good. But I would definitely look for just a good, basic training class to get you started.
I absolutely agree, MeadowCat--since 1959 I've trained a lot of puppies ad adult dogs in a lot of things and with every new dog I have to remind myself that my young dog can't read my mind and I have to start slowly and make every minute of training count by being overjoyed with any and all progress.

I'm no better than the beginning trainers in expecting too much too soon from puppies and it's tempting to do this particularly with Dobes because they are so responsive and smart they pick up stuff faster than many other breeds. But there are simply some things that don't happen quickly and it's in your interest and that of your dog to keep that in mind.

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post #42 of 54 (permalink) Old 05-31-2020, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by sandy2233 View Post
I played all the treat games and the praise and the running away when SE was young. And at training one day (we trained next to a very busy hwy with no fence) And one day I asked for a recall and she came halfway and stopped. I gave the Here command again and she looked at me and took off and wouldn't come back and wouldn't come to anyone. She got next to the hwy and I just knew I was going to scrap her off the pavement. I started running towards my car and saying Let's go, Let's go and she barreled for the car and jumped in her crate. I was very, very, very lucky! It could of ended very tragically. My trainer was furious. I was informed that we could have had that incident controlled in 1 second had she had a training collar on and it would take 4 months to correct this mistake. And it did. We went to an E collar after that. You can say what you will about e collar training but if it is used properly, it is a godsend. I don't recommend training with one unless you have someone experienced in using it helping you. Our first lesson was with two people and a long line. I held the long line and he held the remote. The long line was to ensure she didn't get away again. I gave the command and she got the correction if she didn't come to me immediately. And she learned very quickly that I was the safe place. I can now call her off rabbits, dogs whatever. She keeps her listening ears on. Haven't used the ecollar in over a year and a half. And I can confidently go places and not have to worry about her freedom. But it took a long time. I would not use one on a very young dog but I also wouldn't let one off a long line until I knew she had it down. The level on the remote was a one and it went all the way to a 10 but we never went over a one. I NEVER want to experience that run away feeling again. It was pure panic when she wouldn't come. I used a prong collar and a harness in training her for different venues she worked in. SE had so much socialization that it was hard for her to look at a helper as a bad thing. I loved the venue though and we gave it a shot. I will say the obedience levels for the sport I was training her for had so much more intensity compared to AKC obedience. And it showed. SE cleaned house at AKC events because of the intensity.
I've said before that I'm not against e-collars. I think the key parts of your post are what I've bolded, and I agree. I use e-collars on my adult dogs, who've had good foundation work in recall, understand the commands, and have been trained in an e-collar with a very, very good trainer who knows what they're doing. I've seen FAR too many dogs ruined with improper e-collar use. I would NOT recommend the OP pick up an e-collar and start using it, because this is a puppy, with no foundation, and the OP does not have a trainer. This puppy needs a ton of foundation work. We also don't know anything about this puppy's temperament. The OP needs a good trainer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
I absolutely agree, MeadowCat--since 1959 I've trained a lot of puppies ad adult dogs in a lot of things and with every new dog I have to remind myself that my young dog can't read my mind and I have to start slowly and make every minute of training count by being overjoyed with any and all progress.

I'm no better than the beginning trainers in expecting too much too soon from puppies and it's tempting to do this particularly with Dobes because they are so responsive and smart they pick up stuff faster than many other breeds. But there are simply some things that don't happen quickly and it's in your interest and that of your dog to keep that in mind.

dobebug
Thanks, Bug. I agree! I also think the OP really needs a good trainer to help, because so often we can't see that we're doing this, and we can't see the little mistakes we might be making, or how to set up the dog better for success.
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post #43 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-03-2020, 10:09 AM
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Hey! I am on longisland as well i have a 7 month old black female, i use debbie at from dogworks shes located in holbrook. She is amazing she owns 2 shepherds and is trained in ipo with the top trainers in the world she is very well priced and she truly wonderfull, our female started rebelling at 6 months old we started her on the E-collar training i use the sport-dog 425x we now have her walking on heel and coming completely off leash, she was attacking my little pug in a play war alittle to much that has also stopped. I do 2 20 min lessons everyday and she keeps the collar on her all day just incase of a rebel. She jumps and barks and gets so happy when i grab the collar every morning. I have been working with her since we got her at 10 weeks but she grew a very strong mind of her own and refuses to listen outside and with distractions since introducing the e collar she is like a complete different dog
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post #44 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-03-2020, 10:54 AM
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Sandy, you are talking about a dog who already knows what come means and chose to ignore you. An ecollar can be quite appropriate in that case.

But there's a world of difference between using an ecollar under those conditions and using one right from the start to try to make a young dog follow some order when he doesn't completely understand what you are trying to tell him.
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post #45 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-03-2020, 11:22 AM
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Hi! Is it possible that you are only calling her to you when play time is over and it’s time to go inside? If that seems to be the only time you are calling her then she probably knows what is up and doesn’t want to go in. Start calling her at random, both inside and out. Wait till she is busy inside playing or sniffing around and call her to you, make sure to reward with treats and praise. When outside, make sure to call her and not take her in right away, let her go back to playing. I would up the treat value when outside also. Good luck!
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post #46 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-03-2020, 11:37 AM
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The best way I train my dogs in "recall" they called it in puppy class. Sit on ground across from another person with dog in middle. Your feet should be almost touching the other person's feet. Then hand the lease to the other person while they call your dog by name AT THE SAME TIME. Then the other person hands you the lease while you call dog by name. Every 2 times, each person moves further away by a few inches. Practice this for 10 minutes each day & it works well. Can also use a treat to get dog to come when distance is further & not able to hand lease back & forth. Give treat quickly to dog as soon as they come up to you.
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post #47 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-03-2020, 04:28 PM
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If you're going to use a treat as a reward, make sure it's a good one. Personally I think the best treats out there are Papa Psuka. They're made in small batches here in California so all our pet and feed stores carry them. Also Amazon is a good place to get them. Break them up into smaller bits when using for training. Dogs can't resist!
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post #48 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-03-2020, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhebner View Post
If you're going to use a treat as a reward, make sure it's a good one. Personally I think the best treats out there are Papa Psuka. They're made in small batches here in California so all our pet and feed stores carry them. Also Amazon is a good place to get them. Break them up into smaller bits when using for training. Dogs can't resist!
What we might think is the "best" treat might not be what the dog thinks is the "best" treat. My dogs love Charlee Bear treats, as well as Pupperoni, but would probably kill for a potato chip.

Do some testing with things you think your dog likes, by setting them out in groups of three or four, and make a note of which one the dog goes for first, and which ones the leave for last. Use the highest value treats for you recall training, and only for your recall training.


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post #49 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-04-2020, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary View Post
What we might think is the "best" treat might not be what the dog thinks is the "best" treat. My dogs love Charlee Bear treats, as well as Pupperoni, but would probably kill for a potato chip.

Do some testing with things you think your dog likes, by setting them out in groups of three or four, and make a note of which one the dog goes for first, and which ones the leave for last. Use the highest value treats for you recall training, and only for your recall training.
Mine would do anything for pizza crusts and fresh Brussels sprouts.
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post #50 of 54 (permalink) Old 06-04-2020, 11:19 AM
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Mine would do anything for pizza crusts and fresh Brussels sprouts.
Poor Kasia and Ali - they loved the crust to - A BAD habit ' I ' started , we would sit down then you would feel them big black eyes burning a hole threw yeah
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