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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-02-2019, 09:36 PM Thread Starter
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I have an 8 week Fawn puppy whose skin is dry and flaky, and it looks like his hair is thinning. The vet recommended fish oil, but it doesn't seem to be getting any better. Can someone give me some advice to help my poor guy?
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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-02-2019, 11:31 PM
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Perhaps a dermatologist would be a better choice. CDA is always a concern for dilute Dobes. Blues seem to have a greater number of cases than the fawns. One of the articles I've read has the blues at 90+% and the fawns at 70+%. Don't know if there are newer articles on the subject. Sometimes a better dog food helps with the skin/coat issues. Also staph or mange. Just throwing some things out there.
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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-02-2019, 11:49 PM
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Welcome from the Pacific NW!

One of our members and the owner of the Grandsire of my boy is well versed in dilutes.

Her male fawn is over 13 years old and still has a pretty much full coat.

Her forum name is dobebug and hopefully she will chime in.

This is her senior boy: Ch Foxfire's Gold Toed Monster BN CD RE OA AXJ NF CGC CGCA ROM BFL-1 LC-10L.

Best to you and I hope that you get your answers with respect to Color Dilution Alopecia.

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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-03-2019, 12:12 AM
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At only 8 weeks, I’d be more inclined to think something like demodectic mange, rather than CDA. Has your vet done a skin scrape?


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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-03-2019, 12:52 AM
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All of the following is just speculation, sort of a continuation of the ideas in the previous post by Rosemary:

Demodectic mange in particular occurs in puppies with weakened immune systems. I'm looking at your puppy's age--8 weeks old. The fact that you say "he doesn't seem to be getting any better" leads me to think you've had him for a week or two??

If that is the case, you may have brought him home too young. Puppies should not be separated from their littermates until they are 8 weeks old--in fact, in many states it is illegal to sell them any younger than that. What did his breeder say about his age and whether he was ready to go to a new home? That answer would give me a clue about what kind of care it is likely he was receiving as a baby and young puppy.

I'm wondering about his past...when he was weaned; when he was taken away from mom and his littermates; how was he treated in terms of care, nutrition, being sent out to new surroundings (a new home ) and so on, that could have led to stresses which would have a role in depressing his immune reactions.

If he had inadequate care as a young puppy and was also sent out into the world too young, he could be predisposed to developing demodectic mange.

This is all speculation, of course, because I know nothing about your pup's breeder and what kind of care he received. Did your vet do any skin scrapings to look for the presence of mites? What did he think was the cause of your pup's skin troubles?
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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-03-2019, 04:37 AM
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Dermatologist is a good idea ..........they have a lot of great information in the event your Vet does not produce any answers after skin scraping.

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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-03-2019, 09:10 AM
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If you have an 8 week old puppy I would assume/hope that you just got him. He's probably a bit stressed still missing his momma and littermates. When dogs are stressed their skin can become flakey and puppies tend to get a bit of the D. Mange. You'll notice the increase in dandruff as you take him to new places. Did you have him tested for worms? I've noticed, in rescue, that the puppies with worms tend to have a lesser coat and tend to be flakier.

I would get him on a fish based higher end dog food, start adding fish oil as you've been doing. Give him a bath with baby shampoo. Find a sensitive skin conditioner and add some coconut oil into it. Warm the conditioner in warm water, shake it up and then use it after shampooing. There's also a listerine, water and I think the third ingredient is vinegar solution that can be used for dilutes and/or skin/coat issues but I'm not sure what the percentages are of each.
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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-03-2019, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merp View Post
I have an 8 week Fawn puppy whose skin is dry and flaky, and it looks like his hair is thinning. The vet recommended fish oil, but it doesn't seem to be getting any better. Can someone give me some advice to help my poor guy?
I'm dobebug, the one who owns 4x4 (John) dogs, grandsire. He's fawn and at 13 does have a full coat.

If your puppy is only 8 weeks it would be highly unusual for your puppy to be showing signs of CDA (color dilution alopecia)--usually even dogs who have serious CDA don't show signs of it as puppies--even at a year you would not be likely to see coat thinning. The dandruff can be from several other causes that have nothing to do with CDA but rather to puppy stuff. Some of the things have been suggested by other posters. And the best suggestion is that you take the puppy to see a allergist/dermatologist.

Unless that was a typo and he's really 8 months old not 8 weeks old here are a couple of suggestions that you probably shouldn't do without seeing a vet first--at least his own regular vet.

Don't put an 8 week old puppy on fish oil--what you are likely to get trying to dose a pup that young is a case of diarrhea. All my dogs are on fish oild (and Vitamin E--if you give fish oil you should be giving Vitamin E as well--200 iu per 1,000 grams of fish oil) but I don't start them on it until they are six months or over.

Have you had the puppy checked for possible worms? They can, in quantity ruin the look of a coat pretty quickly. You need a vet check for that. Fleas? Are you sure he isn't carrying a load of fleas? That'll ruin the look of a coat quickly.

What are you feeding him--he may not be eating an appropriate food. Good food will maintain a good coat but the bottom line is that genetics counts for more than anything else with dilute dogs when it comes to what kind of coat they'll have. You can do a lot of things to maintain what coat the dog is destined by his genetics to have but all the supplements, food etc will not make a dog have a good coat his genetics cause him to have CDA.

My fawn dog is from a breeder who has produced other dilute dogs--some of her early breeder were to dogs who carried the dilution gene and some of those dogs had pretty good coats. That helps a lot. I'd seen other dilute dogs (both fawn and blue) of her breeding and in general for dilutes they had pretty good coats so I was ahead of the curve when it came to what kind of coat my dog was likely to have as an adult.

How often are you bathing him? Bathing too often can and will cause dandruff and flaking skin--and if he is getting bathed often he should be getting bathed with a shampoo that is designed to deal with whatever condition he's getting lots of baths. Also you should use cool (nearly cold) water to bathe him--do not scrub his with brushes, your finger nails--use thinned down shampoo on a clean sponge or washcloth and apply the shampoo gently in the directing the hair lies--use cool water to rinse--rinse twice as long as you shampoo--shampoo left on the coat will cause irritation of hair follicles, cause itching and dandruff.

By the way--fish oil, given to improve coats takes weeks to months to show the effects--at 8 weeks your puppy can possibly have been on it long enough for you to see results.

And I'll ask once more--is he really only 8 weeks?

Good luck with your puppy, hopefully the dandruff and flaking is not the onset of CDA--but even 8 months is on the young side to be seeing actually thinning hair on a dilute puppy.

dobebug
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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-03-2019, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
If you have an 8 week old puppy I would assume/hope that you just got him. He's probably a bit stressed still missing his momma and littermates. When dogs are stressed their skin can become flakey and puppies tend to get a bit of the D. Mange. You'll notice the increase in dandruff as you take him to new places. Did you have him tested for worms? I've noticed, in rescue, that the puppies with worms tend to have a lesser coat and tend to be flakier.
Yes, stress dandruff is common in puppies and in older dogs who haven't been well socialized. Demodectic mange is also a possibility--and it's been suggested that if your vet hasn't done a skin scrape looking for demodex mites that he do so.

Quote:
I would get him on a fish based higher end dog food, start adding fish oil as you've been doing. Give him a bath with baby shampoo. Find a sensitive skin conditioner and add some coconut oil into it. Warm the conditioner in warm water, shake it up and then use it after shampooing. There's also a listerine, water and I think the third ingredient is vinegar solution that can be used for dilutes and/or skin/coat issues but I'm not sure what the percentages are of each.
I'd look at his food--it may not be appropriate for him at his age (8 weeks) if you could tell us what he is eating we could probably suggest something that might be a better choice.

Gretchen--I don't use and don't recommend baby shampoo--mostly because all of it seems to be perfumed and that can be irritating to dog skin--I'd get a recommendation on a very mild shampoo from my vet and use that. I only use conditioner on my dilute dog and I use one manufactured by the same outfit that makes the shampoo. You want a kind that is either leave on or rinse off. On the dilute dog I thin the conditioner down to about 1 part conditioner to 20 to 25 parts of water and after the dog is bathed I spray the diluted conditioner on him and let him shake it off--wipe him dry with a towel (don't rub--and never use a hair drier to dry a dog with a dilute coat).

After the dog is bathed and you are rinsing him (before you spray on the conditioner) rinse him--rinse him longer than you think you need to. The vinegar that Gretchen talks about is used as a final rinse--I use about one cup of ordinary white vinegar to a gallon of water (cool water) and rinse one more time with that (yes, he'll smell like a salad until he dries but it's very good for the skin and for getting rid of any residual shampoo that may be still there. THEN while he's still wet I spray the coat with the diluted conditioner--I don't add anything to it--particularly things like coconut oil--dogs skin isn't much like human skin and my experience says that adding things like coconut oil to the skin surface just tends to attract dirt.

The Listerine and water is usually used as a quick bath to remove "doggy odor" without giving a bath. I don't use this at all because Listerine has such a high percentage of alcohol it can be very drying to the dogs skin and coat.

All dogs are somewhat different though and your puppy may need different products in terms of food, shampoos etc. What I think is more important is to figure out what his correct age is so you can be treating whatever conditions exist correctly.

Again, good luck...

dobebug
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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-03-2019, 11:18 AM
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Did the vet do a blood test and check his thyroid levels? Our dog isn't a dilute but thyroid medication made a huge difference with areas of her coat that had started to thin.
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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-03-2019, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
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Did the vet do a blood test and check his thyroid levels? Our dog isn't a dilute but thyroid medication made a huge difference with areas of her coat that had started to thin.
This is an 8 week old puppy....highly highly doubtful there are thyroid issues.
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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-03-2019, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
Yes, stress dandruff is common in puppies and in older dogs who haven't been well socialized. Demodectic mange is also a possibility--and it's been suggested that if your vet hasn't done a skin scrape looking for demodex mites that he do so.



I'd look at his food--it may not be appropriate for him at his age (8 weeks) if you could tell us what he is eating we could probably suggest something that might be a better choice.

Gretchen--I don't use and don't recommend baby shampoo--mostly because all of it seems to be perfumed and that can be irritating to dog skin--I'd get a recommendation on a very mild shampoo from my vet and use that. I only use conditioner on my dilute dog and I use one manufactured by the same outfit that makes the shampoo. You want a kind that is either leave on or rinse off. On the dilute dog I thin the conditioner down to about 1 part conditioner to 20 to 25 parts of water and after the dog is bathed I spray the diluted conditioner on him and let him shake it off--wipe him dry with a towel (don't rub--and never use a hair drier to dry a dog with a dilute coat).

After the dog is bathed and you are rinsing him (before you spray on the conditioner) rinse him--rinse him longer than you think you need to. The vinegar that Gretchen talks about is used as a final rinse--I use about one cup of ordinary white vinegar to a gallon of water (cool water) and rinse one more time with that (yes, he'll smell like a salad until he dries but it's very good for the skin and for getting rid of any residual shampoo that may be still there. THEN while he's still wet I spray the coat with the diluted conditioner--I don't add anything to it--particularly things like coconut oil--dogs skin isn't much like human skin and my experience says that adding things like coconut oil to the skin surface just tends to attract dirt.

The Listerine and water is usually used as a quick bath to remove "doggy odor" without giving a bath. I don't use this at all because Listerine has such a high percentage of alcohol it can be very drying to the dogs skin and coat.

All dogs are somewhat different though and your puppy may need different products in terms of food, shampoos etc. What I think is more important is to figure out what his correct age is so you can be treating whatever conditions exist correctly.

Again, good luck...

dobebug
Weird, even my breeders both suggest baby shampoo because it's made for sensitive skin, as you mentioned though something for sensitive skin is what's needed.

My friend has owned many dilutes and SWEARS by that water, listerine formula. I just spoke to her and it's 2/3 water to 1/3 NAME BRAND Listerine. She stressed the name brand part.
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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-03-2019, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
Weird, even my breeders both suggest baby shampoo because it's made for sensitive skin, as you mentioned though something for sensitive skin is what's needed.

My friend has owned many dilutes and SWEARS by that water, listerine formula. I just spoke to her and it's 2/3 water to 1/3 NAME BRAND Listerine. She stressed the name brand part.
Yeah, I know a lot of breeders too that swear by baby shampoo--but I still see enough puppies that react to it that I don't use it on my dogs--you can smell the perfume in the stuff when you pour it into your hand,. And really, the vet dermatologists will tell you that human skin and dog skin are sufficiently different that you can't always get good result using products for one group on the other.

I don't know how many dilutes your friend has owned but I've been looking at them since before they were even recognized (that happened in 1969) and even folks who tried using the Listerine and water formula for in between sort of clean up found that it tended to dry the coat. I looked at a lot of dilutes (more fawns than blues because that's what I wanted) but I got what I wanted by waiting--the lines my dog came from had enough fawns who retained good coats that I figured my chances of getting a dog who retained a good coat was pretty good. As it turned out I was right--he had fewer coat problems than most of my blacks dogs and although I didn't bathe him often having seen some of the dried out black or red coat where people had used that Listerine mix I wasn't about to use it on a fawn.

But dispite the general rule that dilute dogs tend to lose coat--there are some that haven't--even blues--maybe your friend had good luck.

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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-15-2019, 01:30 AM Thread Starter
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Well, baby boy had a severe case of worms. The worming treatment he was on wasn't abrasive enough, so..ever since we have handled the worm problem his skin has gotten EXTREMELY better. I have also switched his food to diamond naturals all life stages, and I haven't given him the fish oil either I was thinking about maybe adding some organic coconut oil to his food bc his cut is still dull? Thought? I have also noticed he is definitely a stress itcher. I wanted to Thankyou guys for all of your advice!
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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-18-2019, 03:02 PM
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Please be very careful adding any oil to a puppy diet. It wouldn’t take much to cause problems ranging from malabsorption of nutrients to diarrhea. Discussion with a veterinarian who specializes in nutrition would be best before supplements are added for any puppy.

Also, any food change and the deworming protocol can take several months to affect a coat change. It’s very likely that your puppy was nutritionally deprived if he had a big worm load at 8 weeks. For several reasons. A breeder who was not properly worming the puppies was likely also not providing optimum nutrition. I hope you’ll stay on a regular vet visit schedule and keep checking to make sure all forms of worms are eliminated in a safe timely way. PLEEEEEASE don’t make worming decisions without a veterinarian’s advice for such a young puppy!

Now, we MUST have photos of puppies! It’s a necessity. A requirement. A great forum yearning!!!


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post #16 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-18-2019, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triciakoontz View Post

...Now, we MUST have photos of puppies! It’s a necessity. A requirement. A great forum yearning!!!
YES!

I hadn't posted much on this thread because I don't know a whole lot about CDA and proper nutrition and we have some real knowledgeable folks here who do.

But I DO know about staring at puppy pictures and drooling.

So how's about some??
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post #17 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 12:16 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triciakoontz View Post
Please be very careful adding any oil to a puppy diet. It wouldn’t take much to cause problems ranging from malabsorption of nutrients to diarrhea. Discussion with a veterinarian who specializes in nutrition would be best before supplements are added for any puppy.

Also, any food change and the deworming protocol can take several months to affect a coat change. It’s very likely that your puppy was nutritionally deprived if he had a big worm load at 8 weeks. For several reasons. A breeder who was not properly worming the puppies was likely also not providing optimum nutrition. I hope you’ll stay on a regular vet visit schedule and keep checking to make sure all forms of worms are eliminated in a safe timely way. PLEEEEEASE don’t make worming decisions without a veterinarian’s advice for such a young puppy!

Now, we MUST have photos of puppies! It’s a necessity. A requirement. A great forum yearning!!! [IMG class=inlineimg]/images/DobermanTalk_2016/smilies/tango_face_devil.png[/IMG]


I haven't done any oils, supplements, or bathing since, just his kibble. And no wormings myself, they've all been from the vet, he has been on a worming schedule with his vet since I got him and he will continue to go till he's 16 weeks. (That's what the vet said) I think I will have him do a skin scraping in a few days when we go in, if mites is a possibility.

He is still itchy, not nearly as bad..but I think I just need to be patient and give it time for everything to get normal and we'll see what we're working with. I just hate seeing my little man uncomfortable and want to try and fix it.

He was just non stop itching and biting, and he was making himself cry. Of course, me being me, I got on google and cda came up and I panicked lol. He's going to give me gray hair, I'm starting to think he's making me worry on purpose with all the things that have happened in the short time I have had him. It's been an eventful couple of weeks.

But, I am absolutely obsessed with him LOL. It's hard to believe such a big personality can fit into such a little body, and I absolutely love it (most of the time) lol. I never knew a puppy could be so sassy, it's the funniest thing!!

With all of that being said, I really do appreciate all of the feedback!
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post #18 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 12:17 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triciakoontz View Post

...Now, we MUST have photos of puppies! It’s a necessity. A requirement. A great forum yearning!!! [IMG class=inlineimg]/images/DobermanTalk_2016/smilies/tango_face_devil.png[/IMG]
YES!

I hadn't posted much on this thread because I don't know a whole lot about CDA and proper nutrition and we have some real knowledgeable folks here who do.

But I DO know about staring at puppy pictures and drooling.

So how's about some??
I would love to post some, if I knew how!! Lol
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post #19 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 12:37 AM
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Hi Merp!

Here... Courtesy of member Rosemary:

https://www.dobermantalk.com/new-mem...ng-flickr.html
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post #20 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 12:41 AM Thread Starter
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Hi Merp!

Here... Courtesy of member Rosemary:

https://www.dobermantalk.com/new-mem...ng-flickr.html
Thankyou. Do you know why everyone's name says guest?

Last edited by melbrod; 07-19-2019 at 11:39 AM. Reason: fix quote format
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post #21 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 12:49 AM
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[QUOTE=Merp;4080397]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4bike ped View Post
Hi Merp!

Here... Courtesy of member Rosemary:

[url]https://www.dobermantalk.com/new-member-introduction/290802-how-post-photo-using-flickr.html[/

Thankyou. Do you know why everyone's name says guest?
Ask a Mod or put a query into: https://www.dobermantalk.com/dobermantalk-com-tech-help-desk/ You can find it in the Forum feature at the top of the page
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