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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 12:15 PM Thread Starter
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Puppy purchase

Hi I'm new to the group, however have been reading posts as a guest since last year. I'm not sure where to post this. We are looking for a puppy. Things with the breed have really changed with regards to health tests since our first purchase. Probably more than most breeds I'm familiar with. Although DPCA breeder referral can give you a phone number it is hard to find a puppy in general, let alone one that has every parentage tests suggested. Is this the forum for asking which tests are " the most important " if you cannot find a full compliment of them? I'm going to guess I know the answer because I see a lot of comments. Where is the correct forum to ask on here WHO HAS S LITTER RIGHT NOW WITH ALL OF THE SUGGESTED TESTING/SOCIALIZED/EARS/ all the things a puppy should have? I'm not trying to start a controversy just want to ask in the appropriate forum. Thx.
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 12:48 PM
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Where are you located? Be aware you may have to wait.

The best place to start is to contact your local DPCA chapter club and go to a meeting or club event or local dog show and talk to people in the breed. Some breeders are not great at responding so networking in person is a great way to show that your commitment to finding a great breeder. You may also find leads from handlers or other owners, not just breeders, which is why it's great to go to shows. It's easy to find local shows using the AKC's event search tool (conformation shows) or through infodog/MBF.

If you are on facebook ask to join this group too
https://www.facebook.com/groups/323279287742250/

Good luck
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 01:00 PM
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 01:47 PM
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Generally "right now" isn't the best way to search for a puppy...good breeders don't have an endless supply of puppies the way that the less-than-good breeders do.

Health testing is really important, but so is the understanding of pedigree history that really good breeders have. Is health/longevity your first priority? Is temperament just as important? You absolutely don't want to rush into buying the first available puppy...not all breeders are created equal. You want someone who takes the time to make sure they are breeding dogs that, to the best of their ability, have the deck stacked in their favor for health, and have a good, genetically sound temperament. You want them to be able to match you to a puppy that's a good fit for your family. They should take the time to get to know you, and understand which of their pups is a good fit for you and your family. None of that is a quick process, so don't be in a huge hurry. Be prepared to be patient so that you can get the right dog.

Definitely try and get out to some shows if you can. Contact the DPCA chapter club closest to you and ask for some referrals - the chapter clubs are a great source of contacts. The FB group GK recommended is a good resource.


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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D0GS RUN ME! View Post
Hi I'm new to the group, however have been reading posts as a guest since last year. I'm not sure where to post this. We are looking for a puppy. Things with the breed have really changed with regards to health tests since our first purchase. Probably more than most breeds I'm familiar with.
This is as good a place to ask questions like yours.

You know what? I've been in this breed since 1959 and things have definitely changed over the years when it comes to health testing but it hasn't happened suddenly and Dobes are definitely not the only breed where health testing has become or is becoming more stringent with many more tests recommended.

Quote:
Although DPCA breeder referral can give you a phone number it is hard to find a puppy in general, let alone one that has every parentage tests suggested. Is this the forum for asking which tests are " the most important " if you cannot find a full compliment of them? I'm going to guess I know the answer because I see a lot of comments.
My opinion on what the most important tests are for a puppy's parents to have had would be ECHO's and Holters before they were bred--and if they were older dogs I'd want several years worth of records and I'd also want to know about grandparents. vWD--either puppies tested if possible affected puppies from the breeding. Or parents status if claiming status by parentage. Thyroid status of parents and at least grandparents. Hypo- thyroidism WAY common in dogs--and thyroid status NOT as corrected by meds--some breeders give status which turns out to be the corrected levels for a dog who is actually hypothyroid. OFA hips and elbows--I prefer this to Penn Hip tests.

Depending on what I want (and my first choice has always been show prospect) to do with the dog. So I look for champion parents--AKC or CKC
champions, dogs who have taken and passed the WAE. I like but not necessary performance titles of some sort.

Basically unimportant to me--color testing on parents unless I absolutely wouldn't consider a dilute (fawn or blue) dog. Some of the serum tests for cardio related genes (I do these because they become part of record on which full cardio testing is ultimately based. CERF--I do this--it's not called CERF any more but the equivalent--problems are more common in Euro dogs and dogs with partial Euro breeding but my favorite ophthalmologist told me 10 years ago he was seeing more problems in American/Canadian bred dogs than he ever used to. If you are thinking about breeding stock--you want this test done.

As it happens I know enough about some of the icky things that run in lines like kidney problem, liver problems to ask for further testing (there is a gene test for juvenile kidney disease) but CVI--there's is no test for CVI until the dog is an adult basically. Ditto for quite a lot of other things as well.

I'm sure I'm forgetting some of the must do and should think about...

Quote:
Where is the correct forum to ask on here WHO HAS S LITTER RIGHT NOW WITH ALL OF THE SUGGESTED TESTING/SOCIALIZED/EARS/ all the things a puppy should have? I'm not trying to start a controversy just want to ask in the appropriate forum. Thx.
UGH! I don't think there IS a correct forum here for that kind of question--is there? Breeders aren't supposed to advertise litters here. But contacting the DPCA for the list of Breeders by states--the names of the Chapter Clubs by state and contacting those closest to you--going to dog shows and contacting breeders showing there. There is a FaceBook group called breeders and litters or something like that--HELP--someone put up the correct Facebook listing for this would be puppy purchaser.

Don't go to any of those dumb big places that advertise a million breeders with litters--without looking I can tell you most of them of BYB AT BEST--at worst they are puppy mills and this is not where you want to get a puppy from .

And a question I'll ask you and you should ask yourself is why do I want this puppy--what will I or our family be doing with the dog--a pet, go on family picnics? To grandmas house or Uncle Oscars?. Or maybe do a little performance stuff? Obedience? Agility looks like fun? Always wanted a show dog? IPO or Ring is for you? Nose work? Tracking?

Once upon a time when I was very young and thought I wanted to be a breeder I bred a litter (two males and a still born bitch)--I found out quickly that I didn't want to be a breeder but one of those dogs went to a bush pilot in Alaska--At 14 weeks the puppy's ears were standing and he went to his new home--for over 10 years that dog flew around Alaska with his owner--I got a birthday card once a year and when he died I got a farewell card. That guy got exactly what he wanted and the dog didn't know it but he got exactly what every Doberman wants--to be with his person.

Hope this helps a little DOGS--good luck in your search--did you ever say where you were?

Good luck...

dobebug
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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 10:50 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you all for your opinions on which health tests we should be absolutely certain to see before deciding if we wanted to pursue a puppy from that particular breeder. I wasn't expecting anyone to advertise a puppy for sale here. Because my question was about puppy purchasing and what health testing was absolutely suggested, I was asking in the beginning of my post if this was the right forum. I'm sure I will have more questions about making a purchase. Can you please tell me where I should be asking them if not this one. Thank you.
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 11:05 AM Thread Starter
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I did say "who on here has a litter right now that meets all the health testing suggested" I know that for whatever reason during the long search we have not met a breeder who had every test mentioned. It was a bit rhetorical meaning "do all people on this Forum who breed, complete all of this testing which is recommended? " Given prices are from 1800.00 to 3500.00 I do not think so. Thus which were most important because I think in our range we won't find all.
I have had "successful long time breeders who do not allow you to come and meet the Dam of the litter. Should that make me suspicious? Thank you
Sorry for not stating that part of our question clearer.
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D0GS RUN ME! View Post
I did say "who on here has a litter right now that meets all the health testing suggested" I know that for whatever reason during the long search we have not met a breeder who had every test mentioned. It was a bit rhetorical meaning "do all people on this Forum who breed, complete all of this testing which is recommended? " Given prices are from 1800.00 to 3500.00 I do not think so. Thus which were most important because I think in our range we won't find all.
I have had "successful long time breeders who do not allow you to come and meet the Dam of the litter. Should that make me suspicious? Thank you
Sorry for not stating that part of our question clearer.
There are very few people on this forum who are breeders. Most of us are owners. Many of us have dogs from ethical breeders - some of us have had dogs from poor quality breeders and have learned our lesson, and done better on our next dogs. Some people here have dogs from those types of breeders right now, but they are here and are learning better now. Some of our members have rescue dogs. Some of our members don't have Dobermans at all. This isn't a forum specifically for breeders, and we have quite a few rules in place that are intended to restrict the ability of our breeder members from advertising, so you won't really find that here much.

I do think our breeder members tend to do all the recommended health testing, though, although many of our more "active" breeder members breed pretty infrequently. For example, MaryandDobes and Fitzmar haven't had litters in years. The recommendations you got for what health testing our other members look for in a breeder is definitely achievable. I, personally, look for that testing. You can expect to pay roughly $2500-$3000 for a well bred puppy, depending on what area of the country you are in. That includes full health testing on the sire and dam, a cropped/docked puppy, and good breeder support. Does that mean all breeders do that? No. But yes, absolutely many breeders do! Both of mine do. I get updated health test results every year, in fact, and one of my dogs is 7, and the other is 3 1/2. Their breeders keep me updated on the dogs in their lineage.

I would be wary if I couldn't meet the dam of the puppies, assuming you aren't asking to meet her when she has, say, a litter of 2 week old pups or something. Additionally, a breeder may want to meet you somewhere neutral, not at their home. There's a lot of scary stuff these days, and having strangers come to your house can be iffy.

If the sire is not a local dog, you may not be able to meet him. Usually a good breeder isn't using their own stud dog - that's a red flag. This is a good reason we recommend getting out to shows to meet people and their dogs, so that you can get to know the breeder and their dogs, to see if you like them and like the temperament of their dogs.


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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 07:21 PM
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My male recently bred to a bitch here in Colorado. We are expecting puppies July 3/4. Both parents have been fully health tested and then some. I believe she already has list of 6 definite puppy buyers but from the looks of it there's going to be A LOT of puppies. This will be a mix of working, pet and conformation dogs. I do expect them to be higher energy than a lot of litters. I'll be upfront and tell you she's owned Dobermans for 40 years or more but this is the only litter she's bred or will breed. Our mentor will be helping to whelp the litter and raise the puppies and she's been in dobes over 50 years and bred many litters. I have a thread out there somewhere about the breeding where you can see the longevity in the lines and most of the health testing has been posted there as well or in OFA.
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 07:07 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by D0GS RUN ME! View Post
Hi I'm new to the group, however have been reading posts as a guest since last year. I'm not sure where to post this. We are looking for a puppy. Things with the breed have really changed with regards to health tests since our first purchase. Probably more than most breeds I'm familiar with.
This is as good a place to ask questions like yours.

You know what? I've been in this breed since 1959 and things have definitely changed over the years when it comes to health testing but it hasn't happened suddenly and Dobes are definitely not the only breed where health testing has become or is becoming more stringent with many more tests recommended.

Quote:
Although DPCA breeder referral can give you a phone number it is hard to find a puppy in general, let alone one that has every parentage tests suggested. Is this the forum for asking which tests are " the most important " if you cannot find a full compliment of them? I'm going to guess I know the answer because I see a lot of comments.
My opinion on what the most important tests are for a puppy's parents to have had would be ECHO's and Holters before they were bred--and if they were older dogs I'd want several years worth of records and I'd also want to know about grandparents. vWD--either puppies tested if possible affected puppies from the breeding. Or parents status if claiming status by parentage. Thyroid status of parents and at least grandparents. Hypo- thyroidism WAY common in dogs--and thyroid status NOT as corrected by meds--some breeders give status which turns out to be the corrected levels for a dog who is actually hypothyroid. OFA hips and elbows--I prefer this to Penn Hip tests.

Depending on what I want (and my first choice has always been show prospect) to do with the dog. So I look for champion parents--AKC or CKC
champions, dogs who have taken and passed the WAE. I like but not necessary performance titles of some sort.

Basically unimportant to me--color testing on parents unless I absolutely wouldn't consider a dilute (fawn or blue) dog. Some of the serum tests for cardio related genes (I do these because they become part of record on which full cardio testing is ultimately based. CERF--I do this--it's not called CERF any more but the equivalent--problems are more common in Euro dogs and dogs with partial Euro breeding but my favorite ophthalmologist told me 10 years ago he was seeing more problems in American/Canadian bred dogs than he ever used to. If you are thinking about breeding stock--you want this test done.

As it happens I know enough about some of the icky things that run in lines like kidney problem, liver problems to ask for further testing (there is a gene test for juvenile kidney disease) but CVI--there's is no test for CVI until the dog is an adult basically. Ditto for quite a lot of other things as well.

I'm sure I'm forgetting some of the must do and should think about...

Quote:
Where is the correct forum to ask on here WHO HAS S LITTER RIGHT NOW WITH ALL OF THE SUGGESTED TESTING/SOCIALIZED/EARS/ all the things a puppy should have? I'm not trying to start a controversy just want to ask in the appropriate forum. Thx.
UGH! I don't think there IS a correct forum here for that kind of question--is there? Breeders aren't supposed to advertise litters here. But contacting the DPCA for the list of Breeders by states--the names of the Chapter Clubs by state and contacting those closest to you--going to dog shows and contacting breeders showing there. There is a FaceBook group called breeders and litters or something like that--HELP--someone put up the correct Facebook listing for this would be puppy purchaser.

Don't go to any of those dumb big places that advertise a million breeders with litters--without looking I can tell you most of them of BYB AT BEST--at worst they are puppy mills and this is not where you want to get a puppy from .

And a question I'll ask you and you should ask yourself is why do I want this puppy--what will I or our family be doing with the dog--a pet, go on family picnics? To grandmas house or Uncle Oscars?. Or maybe do a little performance stuff? Obedience? Agility looks like fun? Always wanted a show dog? IPO or Ring is for you? Nose work? Tracking?

Once upon a time when I was very young and thought I wanted to be a breeder I bred a litter (two males and a still born bitch)--I found out quickly that I didn't want to be a breeder but one of those dogs went to a bush pilot in Alaska--At 14 weeks the puppy's ears were standing and he went to his new home--for over 10 years that dog flew around Alaska with his owner--I got a birthday card once a year and when he died I got a farewell card. That guy got exactly what he wanted and the dog didn't know it but he got exactly what every Doberman wants--to be with his person.

Hope this helps a little DOGS--good luck in your search--did you ever say where you were?

Good luck...

dobebug
THANK YOU. A lot of your reply were things I've already done. But thanks for a more extensive list of reminders. I'm still trying to learn the navigation of this website.
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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
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I did say "who on here has a litter right now that meets all the health testing suggested" I know that for whatever reason during the long search we have not met a breeder who had every test mentioned. It was a bit rhetorical meaning "do all people on this Forum who breed, complete all of this testing which is recommended? "
LOL, welcome to our world! As a breeder, I do all of the testing that I think is important. For me, it's hips, elbows, thyroid, vWD (if I don't know status by parentage), cardiac echo and Holter (annually, for the most part - let's face it, sometimes I'm not exactly on time with that for various reasons), PDK4 and DCM2 DNA test, DINGS DNA if it's available at the time (from what I understand, there have been times it's not available), eyes, liver and kidney panel, and I do the new degenerative myelopathy DNA test now.

So, that said, then I'm in the same boat as you in trying to find a stud dog owner that does the same! And of course, that dog has to compliment what I'm trying to achieve in conformation, health, temperament, longevity, pedigree, etc and I can absolutely say that I have to make some compromises somewhere because I haven't found that perfect stud dog that has every item on my check list. I get where you're coming from, for sure. There definitely is an ideal, and there definitely are some compromises. That's what you get to figure out. What you can accept and what you can't.
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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 12:42 PM
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The breeders and breeding forum has some threads about what you should be looking for in terms of health testing, etc, in a breeder.
https://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding-breeders/

There's even a thread there with pictures of the various certificates you should expect a breeder to show you. Don't just rely on what he tells you; look for proof that he's done the testing.

https://www.dobermantalk.com/breedin...documents.html


About the mechanics of this forum, you could look at "new member introduction" section for the nitty-gritty details about how to start a thread, post pictures, etc--which you probably already know.
https://www.dobermantalk.com/new-member-introduction/
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