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post #1 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 02:48 AM Thread Starter
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Libero Diamond Stamm - Sire

I think Libero from Brutal Dragons in Europe will be the Sire of our puppy..... does anyone else have a puppy from him? Or Brutal Dragons?

This is Libero




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post #2 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 07:44 AM
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Appears they have a facebook page.
Check it out ...you might get more details from other owners.
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post #3 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 08:11 AM
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Make sure you see proof of pertinent health testing, most importantly the echo and 24 hour holter results.
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post #4 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 09:35 AM
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Very nice! Now pic's of the dam?
Not greedy am I.
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post #5 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 10:06 AM Thread Starter
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Very nice! Now pic's of the dam?

Not greedy am I.


Ha I am greedy too but I am waiting for pics of the Dam and pups from the breeder!!


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post #6 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 10:52 AM
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Have you seen pedigree on them and health testing?
Can't wait to see pictures of the puppy.

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post #7 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 10:58 AM Thread Starter
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I have seen his pedigree but not the Dams yet hence me asking the breeder!
I will see all of the documentation prior to picking the puppy up.....otherwise I won’t be picking the puppy up!


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post #8 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louise&Aaron View Post
I have seen his pedigree but not the Dams yet hence me asking the breeder!
I will see all of the documentation prior to picking the puppy up.....otherwise I won’t be picking the puppy up!


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Do yourself a big one and ask for it now! The breeder owes you that information and should be able to talk you through it as well. This is an unhealthy breed and you don't want to buy a puppy from parents that aren't fully health tested! This doesn't mean a "clean bill of health" from the vet, it's much more. You can look in the puppy and breeder forums there are some great sticky threads on what to look for. Good luck!
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post #9 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 11:57 AM Thread Starter
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Right, I’ve asked! He’s probably getting fed up with me asking so many questions but they are important questions


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post #10 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 12:30 PM
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Um...yeah, i'd be VERY concerned about their failure to provide that information prior to now.

Don't let them wiggle away from that. Ask for the bitch's registered name. Ask about titles and health testing, as well.

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post #11 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 12:38 PM
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They should have offered them prior to this. Don't ever feel bad for asking questions of a breeder. If I were a breeder I would want a customer to inquiry about all the accomplishments, testings and photo of parents. You as a breeder are proud of what you have done and all the work laid out to assure you of a healthy gorgeous puppy.

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post #12 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 12:42 PM
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They should have offered you this information prior to this. As a breeder you want someone that inquires about your puppies to ask all these questions. The breeder should have done so much to assure a healthy, beautiful litter, that they are proud to offer this information, almost before you had to ask.

Shoot, I wrote a much better response, but DT tossed it and said 'data error'. Now I can't remember and am in a hurry.

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post #13 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 12:45 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah I totally agree with you! The issue is we are dealing with an importer who is effectively a middle man and having to ask the breeder on my behalf.
We shall see. Trust me, if I am not happy we won’t be going through with getting the puppy from him!


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post #14 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
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Yeah I totally agree with you! The issue is we are dealing with an importer who is effectively a middle man and having to ask the breeder on my behalf.
We shall see. Trust me, if I am not happy we won’t be going through with getting the puppy from him!
Okay, stop. Don't go through a broker. NEVER go through a broker. Deal directly with the breeder.

Who IS the breeder?

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post #15 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 12:51 PM Thread Starter
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We can’t do it another other way in the UK because cropping and docking is illegal!


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post #16 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 12:56 PM
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Find a breeder who's dogs you like, and deal directly with them, not through a broker who brings in dogs from whomever they can buy from. I've been wondering why you said that you *might* know who the sire was, but hadn't a clue about the dam.
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post #17 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 01:15 PM
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Don't get discouraged ....remember everyone here wants you to succeed in getting from a credible breeder.
Did you contact a broker to find a puppy for you?
Can't you deal directly with a breeder to ask these questions and then let a broker or whoever the law in UK requires to bring a dog in?
I obviously do not know the import laws there.

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post #18 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 01:38 PM Thread Starter
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Am I discouraged to be honest. Importing is complicated and time consuming to the UK and it seemed more sensible to have a broker do the leg work to find us a suitable puppy.


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post #19 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 01:40 PM Thread Starter
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He has sent me the health results but they are quite basic....I will contact the breeder directly and cross check


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post #20 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 01:52 PM Thread Starter
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DAM : HD-A
SIRE: HD-B, vWD N/A, DCM N/N, B LOCUS B/B, Narcolepsy N/N

Any advice here?


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post #21 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
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Am I discouraged to be honest. Importing is complicated and time consuming to the UK and it seemed more sensible to have a broker do the leg work to find us a suitable puppy.
Nope. Dollars to donuts you'll end up screwed, in the end.

Do the leg work. Do the research. Find breeders whose dogs you like. THEN talk to them, network.

This will take time. Time spent in research and networking is important, as you don't want to end up with a sickly dog with questionable temperament.

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DAM : HD-A
SIRE: HD-B, vWD N/A, DCM N/N, B LOCUS B/B, Narcolepsy N/N

Any advice here?
Why isn't there any health testing on the dam? Why was this tiny scrap of information provided and the dam's registered name is not?

Seriously. Ditch the broker.

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post #22 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 02:13 PM
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I wish I were better informed on the European codes for these tests. I am sure someone else can chime in here that knows.
I am 'assuming' HD - A means Hip Dysplasia Excellent and HD - B means Hip Dysplasia Good.
DCM of course is Dilated Cardiomyopathy, but I don't know what N/N is. Maybe negative, but they might be referring to the DNA cheek swab which is not the same as
echocardiogram and a 24 hr. holter test. Those are the ones you want to ask about.
Honestly do not know what B LOCUS B/B would be. Sorry.
In addition to asking the breeder, they should also offer copies of tests done for your record keeping.
The vWD would be the VonWillderbrand disease for blood clotting in Dobermans.

Is there anyway you can bypass the broker just to email the breeders directly? As a breeder I would want personal conversation with prospective owner of one of my puppies.
I want to help, just thinking someone that has been thru this process could offer better advise.
We have a DT member here that has imported and knows many breeders in Europe. You might contact Kansa Dobermans.

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post #23 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 02:16 PM
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The B-locus part is a genetic test which just tells you whether the dog carries all black genes or has a recessive gene for red. Not exactly a health test, though it can be useful for breeders. A D-locus test would tell you whether you might have a chance of getting a dilute dobe from a particular breeding, which is of concern because of possible coat problems. Though again, that test may be useful for a breeder to predict possible coat colors puppies he might have from a particular breeding, but once you have a puppy on the ground, it is pretty obvious what color he is!

B/B means both genes the dog carries for coat color code for Black.

I'm thinking the DCM N/N result may refer to the genetic tests looking for markers to indicate if a dog might have a tendency to develop DCM. At this point, those test results are equivocal; some dogs with positive results never develop DCM, others who are negative do. These tests are of interest academically, as scientists try to track down causes of DCM and a way to track it in your breeding stock. But because we really don't know exactly what is going on with DCM, it is much more useful, mandatory really, that a breeder do a holter and echocardiogram on all dogs he intends to breed within 6 months to a year of the planned breeding.

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post #24 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 02:34 PM
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I believe the HD-B rating is the equivalent of OFA Fair to Good. Not sure about what it would be in the UK rating system, but it’s an acceptable rating, especially when bred to an HD-A Good to Excellent rated dog.

The N/A for the vWD (a bleeding disorder) test could mean either Not Available or Not Applicable. I would certainly want to know the vWD status of any puppy I bought.

The DCM N/N probably means that they have tested clear for one of the genetic markers associated with Dilated Cardiomyopathy, a serious heart condition that is extremely common in Dobermans. There are two known markers at the moment, and testing for them in nowhere near definitive as to a dog’s risk of developing it. As mentioned above, 24 hour holter monitoring and ultrasounds are considered much more accurate in determining cardiac health.


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CA Speed Queen Leontine Von Washateria ETD D-CRO-Preliminary PKD-T PKD-N S-ADP-L5/CH S-ADP-L1(Pr)/L2(Pr) GPS-NST OD-WD2
~~~Requiescat In Pace~~~
Ilka Of Pear Orchard Cemetery BN RE CA CGC TKP ETD CRO-1 D-CRO-Preliminary NCO-1 PKD-T S-ADP-L4 ~2009-2017~
Lucky Rat Dog CGC ~2000-2014~
“Dance as if no one who is qualified to commit you is watching!” Julie Flanery
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Dogs Name: Irongates East of the Sunrise, aka 'Jada' CGC, WAC, GrCh. Cha-Rish Mine To Imagine, WAC
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