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post #51 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-29-2017, 11:09 AM Thread Starter
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Took ears down for repost this morning. Fresh pics. Even though I have tried several different methods, the right ear is still flopping badly. (some of the time) I've used cotton and backer rod as extra bumpers for ear pockets. TBH, I still don't see any pockets, but i'm continuing to use bumpers. As you can see from the pics, thefirst pic is in the house not too long after taking them down. They look fairly straight to me. But, if I take him out on a walk, he goes to strong alert, or lowers his head, the tips come completely together.The second pic is him on alert with the ears not touching, but IMO too close together.The third pic is a close up of his ears from behind. If you see a pocket, please try to circle it.The fourth pic is showing the right ear flopped over to center.Fifth pic is of the post I'm using. I have 2 half cut pieces of 5/8 rod as a bumper. I lowered where I usually put them to about 1.25" from the bottom. Usually, I put the bumper at about 1.5 to 1.75 above the bottom. My pup is 4.5 months, and i'm completely frustrated with getting this right.
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post #52 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-29-2017, 03:47 PM
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Bud,

I swore I not going to try to help you further with the ears. But against my own better judgement I am going to try once more.

First of all I'd suggest that you either make arrangements to take Jefe to the breeder and see what she would suggest. Or take Jefe to the vet who did the crop and see what the ve would suggest.

But if you can't or won't do that you are welcome to read this and try anything that I've suggested.

About the post--how exactly are you positioning those "bumpers"? You shouldn't need two and it looks like you have them taped to the post "up" the post. A bumper should lie "across" the post and don't tape it to the post. Don't put it in by measuring. Make the post. Make a bumper (a one inch piece of the backer rod split in two) you are only going to use 1/2 of it. Put the post in the ear--look at the 4th picture with the right ear folding over the top of his head--stick the bumper to the back taped post at exactly where the ear is folded. Press the ear against the post and put in the bottom wrap of tape. If I were doing this I'd also put an additional wrap of tape where the bumper sits. Finish the taping. Don't put vet wrap on it--it just adds weight.

Before you start all this (if you do) look at that 4th picture--see that fold? If you stick your finger on the fold (on the inside of the ear leather) and push, does the ear pop up straight? If it does you are looking at a pocket and just because you didn't recognize it as a pocket doesn't make it any less of one. Generally if you have an ear that folds that high up on the leather we just refer to it as a fold. But it's all part of terminology--and one of the reasons that having someone help you with it who is there and can see it and adjust the posting to fix it works better than trying to figure out if we (you and whoever is trying to help you without being there in person) if we are both talking about the same thing. So many times while you've been posting Jefe and asking about things you are talking about apples and the person trying to help is talking about oranges.

Make sure that both ears tip out at 10 and 2. If you need a bridge to keep them in that position--use one but put it down at head level--not half way up the post and definitely not at the top of the posts. And if the left ear is not folding like the right, don't use a bumper in the left ear.

I don't use bridges at this stage of posting but they are really optional--with a bridge in place on Jefe he'll be able to pull his ears to a more upright position when he is entirely alert--this is normal, even with a bridge in place--but it's why you just use tape and not rigid material to make the bridge.

The other thing you really need to keep in mind is that this is a very young puppy and that his crop may not be as long as Uno's crop but it is still a long crop and since the right ear clearly has a place where the cartilage is not strong it will probably take a longer period of posting before it is standing to your satisfaction.
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post #53 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-29-2017, 04:09 PM
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You should not be taking them out of posts long enough to let them flop. Try not to give into the temptation to “see if they are standing.” Put his ears back up in posts within 1/2 hour of the time you remove the old posts. Let them dry out for a little while and then....back in posts. Under the best of conditions, you should not expect his ears to stand until he has finished teething--which is somewhere around 6-7 months old.
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Last edited by melbrod; 11-29-2017 at 04:19 PM.
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post #54 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-29-2017, 04:50 PM
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OK.
I can see most of what you're talking about. First off, they aren't really asymmetrical in my opinion. I think what you're not liking is the thick extra cartilage left in at the base of the ear. You're used to a smooth transition there. I know Cambria removes that cartilage at crop. I specifically request it as well. Some people don't on pet crops because the ear usually stands easier since it has such a wide base.

Secondly, where that ear is flipping over the top of his head, just right at that "break" is where the pocket is starting. They can't flip over like that if they don't have a pocket. If it were a true break it would actually fall away from the head. So IMO that's a pocket.

I'm a fan of bridges where necessary, but that really really depends on someone sticking with a particular method. For backer rod, I rarely use it. How old is he now? What method does your breeder prefer be used with her crops?
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post #55 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-29-2017, 04:55 PM
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Is your breeder giving your support right now in this?

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post #56 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-30-2017, 09:58 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
Bud,

I swore I not going to try to help you further with the ears. But against my own better judgement I am going to try once more.

First of all I'd suggest that you either make arrangements to take Jefe to the breeder and see what she would suggest. Or take Jefe to the vet who did the crop and see what the ve would suggest.

"Difficult to do when they won't return phone calls, texts, emails, message box is always full. I have no idea of the vet that was used. I would have loved to have the forever support promised, but it just hasn't been there. It's a 3 hour drive each way. Not practical to go when I don't even know she's in town."

But if you can't or won't do that you are welcome to read this and try anything that I've suggested.

About the post--how exactly are you positioning those "bumpers"? You shouldn't need two and it looks like you have them taped to the post "up" the post. A bumper should lie "across" the post and don't tape it to the post.

"I've never seen any pics of a bumper going "across" the post. Always up and down. I'm taping and posting exactly as in so many tutorials on this site and others."

Don't put it in by measuring. Make the post. Make a bumper (a one inch piece of the backer rod split in two) you are only going to use 1/2 of it.

"That's what i'm doing."

Put the post in the ear--look at the 4th picture with the right ear folding over the top of his head--stick the bumper to the back taped post at exactly where the ear is folded.

"That's what i'm doing, except I measure first and tape the bumper to the post. I didn't with the cotton. That I placed in at the skull/ear join where the bend is located"

Press the ear against the post and put in the bottom wrap of tape. If I were doing this I'd also put an additional wrap of tape where the bumper sits. Finish the taping. Don't put vet wrap on it--it just adds weight.

"The vet wrap weighs next to nothing. Don't see how it could be an issue. It does help hold everything in place. I'm using a very light wrap with the Zonas to not interfere with circulation"

Before you start all this (if you do) look at that 4th picture--see that fold? If you stick your finger on the fold (on the inside of the ear leather) and push, does the ear pop up straight?

"Of course it does"

If it does you are looking at a pocket and just because you didn't recognize it as a pocket doesn't make it any less of one. Generally if you have an ear that folds that high up on the leather we just refer to it as a fold. But it's all part of terminology--and one of the reasons that having someone help you with it who is there and can see it and adjust the posting to fix it works better than trying to figure out if we (you and whoever is trying to help you without being there in person) if we are both talking about the same thing. So many times while you've been posting Jefe and asking about things you are talking about apples and the person trying to help is talking about oranges.

"Well, nobody is personally helping me. Only members of this site, and I've tried to follow the advise given. Just frustrated that nothing seems to be working."


Make sure that both ears tip out at 10 and 2. If you need a bridge to keep them in that position--use one but put it down at head level--not half way up the post and definitely not at the top of the posts. And if the left ear is not folding like the right, don't use a bumper in the left ear.

"I adjusted the bridge to be lower, just above the skull. I got a little worried after so many comments, plus my wife, worrying about it getting hung up and injuring the ears. I removed it, for now."


I don't use bridges at this stage of posting but they are really optional--with a bridge in place on Jefe he'll be able to pull his ears to a more upright position when he is entirely alert--this is normal, even with a bridge in place--but it's why you just use tape and not rigid material to make the bridge.

"His ear muscles are so strong, he just bends any tape bridge. Look at the wrinkles in his brow. I don't remember our last puppy having wrinkles like that."

The other thing you really need to keep in mind is that this is a very young puppy and that his crop may not be as long as Uno's crop but it is still a long crop and since the right ear clearly has a place where the cartilage is not strong it will probably take a longer period of posting before it is standing to your satisfaction.

"The whole thing could be just that. Maybe i'm just impatient. The cartilage just hasn't had time to get strong enough. I do obsess over ears. Seeing that tilt drives me nuts."
Thanks for your help. Please know that I consider all the advice given on this site. I appreciate the help. It's only my second pup. Ears are such a reflection of a Dobe. I want badly for Jefe's to be the best they can.

Last edited by BudnHouston; 11-30-2017 at 10:02 AM.
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post #57 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-30-2017, 10:20 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobiewankanobi View Post
OK.
I can see most of what you're talking about. First off, they aren't really asymmetrical in my opinion. I think what you're not liking is the thick extra cartilage left in at the base of the ear. You're used to a smooth transition there. I know Cambria removes that cartilage at crop. I specifically request it as well. Some people don't on pet crops because the ear usually stands easier since it has such a wide base.

Secondly, where that ear is flipping over the top of his head, just right at that "break" is where the pocket is starting. They can't flip over like that if they don't have a pocket. If it were a true break it would actually fall away from the head. So IMO that's a pocket.

I'm a fan of bridges where necessary, but that really really depends on someone sticking with a particular method. For backer rod, I rarely use it. How old is he now? What method does your breeder prefer be used with her crops?
Jefe was born 7/11. He'll be 5 months soon. Large pup. He already weighs 57 lbs.

She used, and I've always used backer rod. I started with 3/8, then 1/2, now 5/8". Then one wrap lengthwise with duct tape, then one wrap with Zonas sticky down, one wrap sticky up. Adding the 1/2 bumper at skull/ear intersection. Wrapping the bottom first after making sure post is all the way down, and ear pulled up as far as I can, then the tip, then one light wrap of vet wrap around to middle to hold everything in place. When posted the ears are at 10 and 2. On alert, with post, the ears are straight up and down. When sniffing around, with post, the right ear and sometimes the left too, move in and almost touch at the tips.

That's the same method as the breeder, except she used paper tape first to keep the Zonas from pulling hair. I use an adhesive remover before I pull the tape off.

I only used the bridge for one post. I am considering trying it again.
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post #58 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-30-2017, 10:27 AM Thread Starter
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I'm trying to repost faster. Yes, I've been allowing them to dry for a couple hours. Once overnight. NO MORE. Once they're out, i'll have them back up with the hour.

BTW, still no help from the breeder. She's vanished. I'm trying to remain positive. Maybe she's just very busy with her day job. I'm still hopeful that she'll resurface and be of help. BTW, I definitely plan to ask for a partial refund due to the one testicle, and if I ever find that the ear issue is due to a bad cut, then i'll be asking for my money back.

Thanks
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post #59 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-30-2017, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudnHouston View Post
I'm trying to repost faster. Yes, I've been allowing them to dry for a couple hours. Once overnight. NO MORE. Once they're out, i'll have them back up with the hour.

BTW, still no help from the breeder. She's vanished. I'm trying to remain positive. Maybe she's just very busy with her day job. I'm still hopeful that she'll resurface and be of help. BTW, I definitely plan to ask for a partial refund due to the one testicle, and if I ever find that the ear issue is due to a bad cut, then i'll be asking for my money back.

Thanks
Would you care to share who the breeder is?


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post #60 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-30-2017, 11:06 AM Thread Starter
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Sorry, Meadowcat, I don't want to bash someone, at least not before I know all the facts. She may have a reason for not communicating. Jefe may still come around. His testicle could still drop, and his ears may turn out fine. He's only 4.5 months, and I may just be obsessing. I probably wouldn't have written the first post if only the breeder had communicated with me. That's one of my pet peeves about people. Not answering, not communicating. I was in sales for 40 years. Not once did I not return a call, text, whatever. To me, there's not such thing as too busy. It takes less than 15 seconds to minimally respond to almost anything. I'm still optimistic about Jefe. He's a very smart and energetic puppy. We love him. No matter what we'll give him all the love and training possible. There's still a good chance, with yours and others help, that his ears will be fine. His testicle may still drop, and if it doesn't, we'll pay a few hundred extra to neuter him at 18 months. We liked our breeder when we met. We wouldn't have bought from her if we didn't. I'm irritated, but still reserving judgement. All may turn out fine. We hope...
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post #61 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-30-2017, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudnHouston View Post
Jefe was born 7/11. He'll be 5 months soon. Large pup. He already weighs 57 lbs.

She used, and I've always used backer rod. I started with 3/8, then 1/2, now 5/8". Then one wrap lengthwise with duct tape, then one wrap with Zonas sticky down, one wrap sticky up. Adding the 1/2 bumper at skull/ear intersection. Wrapping the bottom first after making sure post is all the way down, and ear pulled up as far as I can, then the tip, then one light wrap of vet wrap around to middle to hold everything in place. When posted the ears are at 10 and 2. On alert, with post, the ears are straight up and down. When sniffing around, with post, the right ear and sometimes the left too, move in and almost touch at the tips.

That's the same method as the breeder, except she used paper tape first to keep the Zonas from pulling hair. I use an adhesive remover before I pull the tape off.

I only used the bridge for one post. I am considering trying it again.
OK. Looking at the photos you posted yesterday I'm going to make a suggestion you might consider trying.

Measure your posts to the ear like you're doing. Tape a 1 inch piece of half backer rod (the bumper) approximately 1 and 1/2 inches from the very bottom of the post. Back Wrap the entire post (all the way to the bottom) in zonas tape. THEN, taper the end of the post. Almost like the sharp end of a pencil. I usually just back wrap tape over the exposed end or you could put cotton. Whatever you prefer. But smash the tape down on the tapered end so it retains the tapered shape. I wouldn't use a bridge with backer rod on a pup I suspected was having a pocket issue.

Sometimes, even when you're pulling up on the ear really well, the post simply isn't in far enough to the ear canal. The tapering will allow you to get it in to the very bottom. The bumper part will actually be placed up against the skull. Then tape bottom up while pulling the ear up tight. I mean really tight. You can't hurt the pup by pulling ears up to post.

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post #62 of 65 (permalink) Old 11-30-2017, 01:16 PM
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I think maybe MeadowCat was asking simply because most of us that are in your area could probably easily get a hold of your breeder.
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post #63 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-01-2017, 09:13 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobiewankanobi View Post
OK. Looking at the photos you posted yesterday I'm going to make a suggestion you might consider trying.

Measure your posts to the ear like you're doing. Tape a 1 inch piece of half backer rod (the bumper) approximately 1 and 1/2 inches from the very bottom of the post. Back Wrap the entire post (all the way to the bottom) in zonas tape. THEN, taper the end of the post. Almost like the sharp end of a pencil. I usually just back wrap tape over the exposed end or you could put cotton. Whatever you prefer. But smash the tape down on the tapered end so it retains the tapered shape. I wouldn't use a bridge with backer rod on a pup I suspected was having a pocket issue.

"I've been placing the bumper bottom at 1.5" from the bottom tip. Since it didn't appear to be helping, I lowered in just a little this time. I haven't been using as extreme a taper as you suggest. I've been just nipping off the edges at the bottom. I have been worrying that the post weren't going all the way to bottom, even though I do twist and push down until it feels like they're bottomed out. I've stopped using the bridge, for now."

Sometimes, even when you're pulling up on the ear really well, the post simply isn't in far enough to the ear canal. The tapering will allow you to get it in to the very bottom. The bumper part will actually be placed up against the skull. Then tape bottom up while pulling the ear up tight. I mean really tight. You can't hurt the pup by pulling ears up to post.

"I may be wrong, but it sure looks and feels like the post and bumper are placed right. I pull up on the ear until he starts to squeal."
I'm not sure if I don't have two issues rather than one. Yes, the right ear flops towards the center. That may only be due to the cartilage not being stiff enough yet. He is only 4.5 months. Another BIG concern is that the ear tips come together, even when there is no bend in the ear. It looks, to me, like they're shaped wrong. This only happens on a "strong" alert, or when he lowers his head to sniff the ground. Sorry, but I hate that look. (pic attached)
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post #64 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-03-2017, 10:35 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks so much to Dobewankanobi for meeting me yesterday at the Conroe AKC dog show. She was very helpful showing me what I was doing wrong on Jefe's posts. Basically, not getting the post entirely to the bottom, not pulling up enough on the ear, and taping lower than I had been. She found and identified a pocket on his right ear. Showed my how to correct and eased my fears. She also confirmed that only one testicle had dropped, and the other is a long way back in the "canal", not likely to drop. (I can deal with that, but would like to be compensated for the extra cost) It was so nice to have some help. My wife and I VERY much appreciated Dobewankanobi taking the time to help us. I'm optimistic now that Jefe's ears will be fine.
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post #65 of 65 (permalink) Old 12-15-2017, 10:51 AM Thread Starter
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Pic of Jefe on his 5 month birthday, and after 12 days of posting using Dobewankanobi help. Ears look great. Still need a little more shaping, but so much better. I believe the pocket is gone. Hard for me to exactly tell, since I could never see it to begin with, but Dobewan could. We're pretty happy campers right now. Jefe's a very smart dog, and we have high hopes for him as a service dog.
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