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post #26 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-28-2017, 03:36 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
If you brought your boy home at 8 weeks, yes, of course the breeder should have let you know that both testicles weren't down, but it's also possible at that age that both will not be down. It is NOT predictable, necessarily, that a puppy will have only one testicle, even though it is "hereditary" as the condition isn't passed down simply from one dog to the next in the single expression of the condition. As in, it's not as if a male dog produces ONLY cryptorchid puppies - he may sire a litter with one bitch that has a male pup that is cryptorchid and a male pup that has normal testicles. He may sire a litter with another bitch that produces male pups where all of them have normal testicles. It's "genetic" in that it is certainly produced by a combination of genes between both the sire and dam, but it is not 100% predictable.

It's unfortunate your breeder didn't let you know that he had a chance that both testicles would not descend. In the grand scheme of things, since you don't (and never intended) to show him, it's really not a big deal (other than poor communication from your breeder, which may speak poorly of them). You can easily wait until he's mature to neuter him.
We brought him home at 9 weeks. Didn't really have much of a choice. I wanted to wait to 12 weeks, but see my other post for reason.

We didn't say we weren't going to show him. Just that we didn't have any current plans to. We were very adamant that we wanted a dog with both testicles. Cryptorchidism closes the door to any possibilities.

No, it's not the end of the world. Hopefully, he will still be a great dog, and we'll certainly love him, and train him to be the best dog possible. We'll wait until 18 months to neuter. We "probably" would have done that anyway. It's not the fact, it's the undercurrent of dishonesty. Why not say something? Why not be completely up front with a buyer? If we hadn't made such a big deal out of it with the breeder, it would be different. You guys all seem to know that if they haven't dropped by 7-8 weeks, there may be a problem. We picked up at 9 with zero testicles showing, asked, and were told it could take up to 6 months. Doesn't that sound like a lie to you?
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post #27 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-28-2017, 03:56 PM
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While the breeder is correct in that they can sometimes still drop at a later age, if you were that concerned about it, why did you go ahead and take him?


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post #28 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-29-2017, 04:59 PM
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Well, I've listened to a lot of breeders say a lot of things that weren't necessarily "true" and at least half the time it was because the breeder just plain wasn't all that knowledgable.

I've said before that every puppy (of any breed) was always intended be shown in conformation. And before I ever got my first Doberman I had a friend who had show dogs--and it was practically the first thing she said about getting a male--"Be sure they have both testicles and that they are fully descended..." It was years down the line before I ever heard a Dobe breeder say that they "could" drop as late as six months.

And just once I got a puppy who came to me sight unseen (but I knew the breeder and parents and grandparents on both sides of the pedigree)--the breeder told me when he shipped the dog that he had both testicles (at 7-1/2 weeks) but that one was still yo-yoing.

It continued to do so--mostly down but occasionally up and at 5 months we (the breeder and I discussed this and decided I would send that puppy back and take a litter mate that the breeder had kept as a show prospect as well).

We did that and the breeder called me almost two months later to tell me that the original puppy (which he'd sold as a monorchid pet to a orchard farmer in Yakima) had (a week before he was scheduled to be neutered) dropped the second testicle and it seemed to be permanently down. Figures--he was definitely the better puppy of the two.

So, while it can happen--it's not terribly common.
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post #29 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-29-2017, 05:32 PM
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I have to say this. I think, often times, we push ALL responsibility on a breeder. Sometimes this is true. There are breeders out there that play fast and loose with the truth. BUT, that is truly not the norm. If a buyer has a something that is non-negotiable, it's the buyer's responsibility to make that extra clear AND to verify that non-negotiable thing is not present in the puppy before any exchange of funds. For example, I have a buyer, and lord bless her because she owns another of mine and is a really great home, but she will ONLY consider a red male with a nose zipper. Non negotiable. And one day I hope that happens for her! But I certainly wouldn't try to swing a red male without a nose zipper under the radar to her. The same for you. If you do not want a dog with undescended testicles, then it's on you to make that clear and ensure that's not what you're taking home. IF you did that, then I would consider that breeder to potentially be shady.

Further, when someone tells me that showing isn't a priority or they MAY try it...well I'm not going to send them a really nice show prospect that may never set foot in the ring. Showing is to further a breeding program. The goal being that if they're of good quality, they will contribute back to the gene pool. As someone else mentioned, sometimes the puppy with one testicle WAS the pick of a litter but for obvious reasons can't be shown.

Do we know early? Yes. Fairly early. 7-8 weeks or so. After about 10 weeks, if I had one with an undescended testicle that's probably one I'm going to place in a pet home. I'm not going to hold out any hope that it will descend after that if it hasn't been up and down the whole time.
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post #30 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-30-2017, 10:32 AM Thread Starter
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While the breeder is correct in that they can sometimes still drop at a later age, if you were that concerned about it, why did you go ahead and take him?
I took him because the "professional" breeder told me that they could take up to 6 months to drop, and never mentioned any issues with his heredity.
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post #31 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-30-2017, 10:34 AM
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I have to say this. I think, often times, we push ALL responsibility on a breeder. Sometimes this is true. There are breeders out there that play fast and loose with the truth. BUT, that is truly not the norm. If a buyer has a something that is non-negotiable, it's the buyer's responsibility to make that extra clear AND to verify that non-negotiable thing is not present in the puppy before any exchange of funds. For example, I have a buyer, and lord bless her because she owns another of mine and is a really great home, but she will ONLY consider a red male with a nose zipper. Non negotiable. And one day I hope that happens for her! But I certainly wouldn't try to swing a red male without a nose zipper under the radar to her. The same for you. If you do not want a dog with undescended testicles, then it's on you to make that clear and ensure that's not what you're taking home. IF you did that, then I would consider that breeder to potentially be shady.

Further, when someone tells me that showing isn't a priority or they MAY try it...well I'm not going to send them a really nice show prospect that may never set foot in the ring. Showing is to further a breeding program. The goal being that if they're of good quality, they will contribute back to the gene pool. As someone else mentioned, sometimes the puppy with one testicle WAS the pick of a litter but for obvious reasons can't be shown.

Do we know early? Yes. Fairly early. 7-8 weeks or so. After about 10 weeks, if I had one with an undescended testicle that's probably one I'm going to place in a pet home. I'm not going to hold out any hope that it will descend after that if it hasn't been up and down the whole time.
Wait a minute...does that mean I didn't ask for a super low key female that would just be lazy and want to do nothing? What kind of puppy did you send me???
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post #32 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-30-2017, 10:39 AM Thread Starter
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Well, I've listened to a lot of breeders say a lot of things that weren't necessarily "true" and at least half the time it was because the breeder just plain wasn't all that knowledgable.

"This breeder is what I would call VERY knowledgeable. She's a AKC confirmation judge for Dobermans."

I've said before that every puppy (of any breed) was always intended be shown in conformation. And before I ever got my first Doberman I had a friend who had show dogs--and it was practically the first thing she said about getting a male--"Be sure they have both testicles and that they are fully descended..." It was years down the line before I ever heard a Dobe breeder say that they "could" drop as late as six months.

"Wish someone would have told me all that. Maybe Cryptorchidism is more common in Dobes than most of us think. "

And just once I got a puppy who came to me sight unseen (but I knew the breeder and parents and grandparents on both sides of the pedigree)--the breeder told me when he shipped the dog that he had both testicles (at 7-1/2 weeks) but that one was still yo-yoing.

It continued to do so--mostly down but occasionally up and at 5 months we (the breeder and I discussed this and decided I would send that puppy back and take a litter mate that the breeder had kept as a show prospect as well).

We did that and the breeder called me almost two months later to tell me that the original puppy (which he'd sold as a monorchid pet to a orchard farmer in Yakima) had (a week before he was scheduled to be neutered) dropped the second testicle and it seemed to be permanently down. Figures--he was definitely the better puppy of the two.

So, while it can happen--it's not terribly common.

"We're not giving up hope. The vet saying what she did a couple days ago discouraged us some."
Thanks for your help
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post #33 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-30-2017, 10:53 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dobiewankanobi View Post
I have to say this. I think, often times, we push ALL responsibility on a breeder. Sometimes this is true. There are breeders out there that play fast and loose with the truth. BUT, that is truly not the norm. If a buyer has a something that is non-negotiable, it's the buyer's responsibility to make that extra clear AND to verify that non-negotiable thing is not present in the puppy before any exchange of funds. For example, I have a buyer, and lord bless her because she owns another of mine and is a really great home, but she will ONLY consider a red male with a nose zipper. Non negotiable. And one day I hope that happens for her! But I certainly wouldn't try to swing a red male without a nose zipper under the radar to her. The same for you. If you do not want a dog with undescended testicles, then it's on you to make that clear and ensure that's not what you're taking home. IF you did that, then I would consider that breeder to potentially be shady.

"I may share some of the blame. I didn't make it a situation where it was my way or no way. Besides, I would have been negotiable. Uno only had one, his breeder told me the same thing. Oh, it'll probably drop later. Never did. That didn't keep Uno from being a perfect dog for us. If i'd have known, I would NOT have paid so much. One thing we definitely did was to speak very clearly that we didn't want another Cryptorchid dog. We clearly said "want", we never said we couldn't even consider one at the right price. Now, we're looking at $??? more dollars to eventually neuter. Shouldn't we be compensated?"

Further, when someone tells me that showing isn't a priority or they MAY try it...well I'm not going to send them a really nice show prospect that may never set foot in the ring. Showing is to further a breeding program. The goal being that if they're of good quality, they will contribute back to the gene pool. As someone else mentioned, sometimes the puppy with one testicle WAS the pick of a litter but for obvious reasons can't be shown.

"Completely understand that, and agree."

Do we know early? Yes. Fairly early. 7-8 weeks or so. After about 10 weeks, if I had one with an undescended testicle that's probably one I'm going to place in a pet home. I'm not going to hold out any hope that it will descend after that if it hasn't been up and down the whole time.

"Don't you charge less for your pet puppies than top show prospects? Just asking."



Thanks for your help. I'd sure like to bring Jefe by your place. Have you take a look, offer your opinion/suggestions. It's hard to write everything without sounding mad all the time. I'm really not an angry person, promise.
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post #34 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-30-2017, 01:17 PM
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Wait a minute...does that mean I didn't ask for a super low key female that would just be lazy and want to do nothing? What kind of puppy did you send me???
You wanted a performance rock star! Performance rockstars do not sit on couches being lazy! LOL
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post #35 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-30-2017, 01:25 PM
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"Don't you charge less for your pet puppies than top show prospects? Just asking."



Thanks for your help. I'd sure like to bring Jefe by your place. Have you take a look, offer your opinion/suggestions. It's hard to write everything without sounding mad all the time. I'm really not an angry person, promise.
I don't make puppies available for discount for a missing testicle. I WOULD offer to pay for a portion of the neuter or have it done at my vet where I would cover the cost. Though, my puppy price would really still be the same.

And No. I do not charge more for show prospects than pet puppies. I sell ALL of my pups for the same price. It's a two fold reason really. 1. It costs me just as much to produce a show puppy as it does a pet. Pets aren't given less care. Pets aren't given cheaper crops or other veterinary care. Pets, in my breeding program and in the programs of many others, are treated just as well as any potential show prospect. 2. I'm not psychic. A promising puppy at 8-12 weeks could very well turn into a pet. And I've got a return contingency in my contract for just that. However, many times a beautiful pet goes on to finish its championship. Its easier to sell them all at one price and not have to worry about returning funds or charging someone extra to transfer their registration to full which allows them to show. But, again, it simply costs me the exact same amount to raise a pet as it does a show prospect. Frankly, based on what the other breeders in our area are charging, apparently i'm not charging enough! But my prices are right in line with the average and I have a day job. So I just try to recoup the costs of breeding a litter in general (which usually doesn't happen).

I'm harder to catch on the weekends (busy show schedule), but if you have time to come by the Conroe shows this weekend that's where I'll be Friday - Sunday. I would be happy to take a look and see what we can do to help his ears.
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post #36 of 37 (permalink) Old 12-01-2017, 08:56 AM Thread Starter
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I don't make puppies available for discount for a missing testicle. I WOULD offer to pay for a portion of the neuter or have it done at my vet where I would cover the cost. Though, my puppy price would really still be the same.

And No. I do not charge more for show prospects than pet puppies. I sell ALL of my pups for the same price. It's a two fold reason really. 1. It costs me just as much to produce a show puppy as it does a pet. Pets aren't given less care. Pets aren't given cheaper crops or other veterinary care. Pets, in my breeding program and in the programs of many others, are treated just as well as any potential show prospect. 2. I'm not psychic. A promising puppy at 8-12 weeks could very well turn into a pet. And I've got a return contingency in my contract for just that. However, many times a beautiful pet goes on to finish its championship. Its easier to sell them all at one price and not have to worry about returning funds or charging someone extra to transfer their registration to full which allows them to show. But, again, it simply costs me the exact same amount to raise a pet as it does a show prospect. Frankly, based on what the other breeders in our area are charging, apparently i'm not charging enough! But my prices are right in line with the average and I have a day job. So I just try to recoup the costs of breeding a litter in general (which usually doesn't happen).

I'm harder to catch on the weekends (busy show schedule), but if you have time to come by the Conroe shows this weekend that's where I'll be Friday - Sunday. I would be happy to take a look and see what we can do to help his ears.
Very thoughtful. I like the way you price and place your puppies.

I think I can make it Saturday. How do I find you? Any particular time work better for you?
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post #37 of 37 (permalink) Old 12-01-2017, 10:01 AM
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I think I can make it Saturday. How do I find you? Any particular time work better for you?
According to the judging program, Dobermans will be showing in ring 11 at 12:20 on Saturday.
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