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post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-18-2016, 08:02 PM Thread Starter
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Help! My puppy is biting me.

I have King for over a month now and i cant get him to stop biting my hands while playing, he even bites hard when hes exited, i have scratches all over my hands. Tryed everything, from redirecting with toys, yelling ouch(making hurt noises) ... I mean he would stop for a while and then few min later, again..

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post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-18-2016, 08:36 PM
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Doberman puppies are notorious for biting. Hands, arms, feet. Hence the nick name "Dobersharks" at this stage in their life. It is the way they play with their siblings. No sibs?
Then its you.

People have all kinds of ways to deal with it: Time out, re-direction, mental stimulation.... The list goes on. Me, I just put up with it until it passes. And it will pass.

Just remember, this is not a vicious act on your King's part. He is playing the way Dobe pups play. They are mouthy, vocal and rough. You should also remember this should you choose to have him play with other puppies or even adult dogs. To the un-initiated, a doberman playing could easily be mistaken for aggression. And if the playmate gets frustrated, it can turn into aggression.

I just supervised play between my younger boy and our older boy. I had to intervene several times as it got rougher than I liked. And these boys are great friends.

I am sure others who are less accepting of this behavior will chime in on how to mitigate his biting.

John
Portland OR
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post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-19-2016, 09:57 AM
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John knows I'm one of the less accepting. I hate being mouthed--so I discourage it from day one--I don't use my hands to play with dogs--any dogs, my own, puppies I'm raising--house rule on this is "Put your open mouth on me and I won't play and what's worse, I'll leave and you can't go with me."

I suggest that if your puppy gets too rough while playing with you that you find some games to play that keep your hands away from his mouth--tug toys work, retreive type games (balls thrown, frisbees rolled along the ground--that kind of thing) and if he bites you, pulls on your clothes then stop the play--LEAVE--walk through a door and shut it behind you. Don't stay gone long--15 to 20 seconds is usually enough--if it wasn't then the offender gets a short time out in his crate. A lot of times when the puppy can't seem to stop playing too rough with you it's because he's just plain too ramped up to settle a bit. Much like toddlers who get so jacked up that it turns into a tantrum and all they really need is rest--puppies do the same thing. Stick a puppy who can't seem to stop biting you or pulling on your clothing no matter what you do, in a crate and often they are dead asleep with in a minute or two.

I agree with John that it doesn't escalate into something worse--it is how puppies play and Dobe are much rougher than most dogs. But eventually much of it goes away as they get older but I do stop it if the puppy is biting hard enough to draw blood. Even though I'm well aware that you can teach any dog to have a soft mouth I don't want them to nip, pinch, bite, or mouth me--period. It just happens to be a issue for me and one on which I'm entirely intolerant.

For the record--all of the things that people do when puppies bite to discourage them will work--the most common reason that they don't work is because their people aren't always sufficiently consistent about their reactions to puppy biting.

Redirection works but you have to do it each time, every time. Yelping as if you've been mortally wounded also works but if you've ever spent some time watching small puppies play--the follow up for the the "wounded yelp" is for the yelper to abandon play and go away. You kind of have to do both otherwise they don't get the message.

What doesn't work is trying to use your hands to push the biter away--that's attention and play behavior. Holding the puppies muzzle and forceably shutting his mouth is either also perceived as play behavior OR if done in a manner that hurts the puppy and frightens him it's really hard on the bond you are creating with the puppy and can leave you with a fearful dog for all time.

Time outs in crates (and they should be short--if the puppy isn't asleep inside of 2 minutes I'll let them out of the crate) work but if they are too long the puppy ends up with no idea why he's there.

Good luck--unfortunately puppy teeth are SHARP and being bitten hurts--even if you do what John does--put up with it and know that it will go away with time--it's probably a good idea to instill the idea of a "stop" when the play gets too rough and the puppy has become totally out of control.
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post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-19-2016, 10:48 AM
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Redirecting worked well for us when Stella was 10-14 weeks. By 14-16 weeks, I was expecting a little more from her due to maturing (I use that term loosely here). So around that time we started using very short time outs. I make a loud weird sound when she is doing something I really really don't like, so I would make that sound, then off to the laundry room for two minutes. 90% of the time should would come out of the laundry room and lay down on a lap or a couch and go to sleep. By 5 months she was completely done dobersharking. She either just outgrew it, or figured the time outs weren't worth it.
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post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old 10-19-2016, 02:05 AM
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Begin by substituting your hands, fingers, feet, and toes with chew treats and toys when you want to pet him, inspect his fur, or play. Children should also be taught this method. When you reach out to pet your pup or give him a scratch, have a toy or chew treat in the other hand to offer him. This way, he will direct his chewing and biting onto the object rather than your hand.

Switch the hand with the toy in it often so he won’t anticipate which hand it is in and make a leap at it. The idea is to show the puppy that people and petting are good things, and so are chewies or toys! Start off slowly and keep the time short. As you pet or scratch him, his excitement will build and he’ll switch to your hand if you go too long.
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post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old 10-19-2016, 11:09 PM
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Dober shark is a nick name of Doberman Puppies
This article is from a very well known dog expert:
biting is pretty common in puppies. Dr. Ian Dunbar has a pretty good article that I like called The Bite Stops Here. It's pretty much how I curbed play-biting in my dog as well as puppies that I used to work with. The catch is that you have to be patient and persistent. Some dogs take longer to pick up the hint than others. Dreizehn got it in only a few days but I've worked with more hard-headed pups who took a lot longer for it to sink in.

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Puppies bite, and thank goodness they do. Puppy biting is a normal and natural puppy behavior. In fact, it is the pup that does not mouth and bite much as a youngster that augers ill for the future. Puppy play-biting is the means by which dogs learn to develop bite inhibition, which is absolutely essential later in life.

The combination of weak jaws with extremely sharp, needle-like teeth and the puppy penchant for biting results in numerous play-bites which, although painful, seldom cause serious harm. Thus, the developing pup receives ample necessary feedback regarding the force of its bites before it develops strong jaws – which could inflict considerable injury. The greater the pup's opportunity to play-bite with people, other dogs and other animals, the better the dog's bite inhibition as an adult. For puppies that do not grow up with the benefit of regular and frequent interaction with other dogs and other animals, the responsibility of teaching bite inhibition lies with the owner.

Certainly, puppy biting behavior most eventually be eliminated: we cannot have an adult dog playfully mauling family, friends and strangers in the manner of a young puppy. However, it is essential that puppy biting behaviour is gradually and progressively eliminated via a systematic four-step process. With some dogs, it is easy to teach the four phases in sequence. With others, the puppy biting may be so severe that the owners will need to embark on all four stages at once. However, it is essential that the pup first learn to inhibit the force of its bites before the biting behaviour is eliminated altogether.

Inhibiting the force of bites
No painful bites.
The first item on the agenda is to stop the puppy bruising people. It is not necessary to reprimand the pup and, certainly, physical punishments are contra-indicated, since they tend to make some pups more excited, and insidiously erode the puppy's temperament and trust in the owner. But it is essential to let the pup know when it hurts. A simple "ouch!" is usually sufficient. The volume of the "ouch" should vary according to the dog's mental make-up; a fairly soft "ouch" will suffice for sensitive critters, but a loud "OUCH!!!" may be necessary for a wild and woolly creature. During initial training, even shouting may make the pup more excited, as does physical confinement. An extremely effective technique with boisterous pups is to call the puppy a "jerk!" and leave the room and shut the door. Allow the pup time to reflect on the loss of its favourite human chew toy immediately following the hard nip, and then return to make up. It is important to indicate that you still love the pup – it is the painful bites which are objectionable. Instruct the pup to come and sit, and then resume playing. Ideally, the pup should have been taught not to hurt people well before it is three months old.

It is much better for the owner to leave the pup than to try to physically restrain and remove it to a confinement area at a time when it is already out of control. If one pup bites another too hard, the bitee yelps and playing is postponed while the injured party licks its wounds. The biter learns that hard bites curtail an otherwise enjoyable play session. Hence, the bite learns to bite more softly when the play session resumes.

No jaw pressure at all
The second stage of training is to eliminate bite pressure entirely, even thought the bites no longer hurt. When the puppy is munching away, wait for a nibble that is harder than the rest and respond as if it really hurt: "Ouch, you worm! Gently! That hurt me you bully!" The dog begins to think "Good Lord! These humans are so mamby pamby I'll have to be really careful when mouthing their delicate skins." And that's precisely what we want the dog to think – so he'll be extremely careful when playing with people. Ideally, the puppy should no longer be exerting any pressure when mouthing by the time it is four to five months old.

Inhibiting the incidence of mouthing
Always stop mouthing when requested.
Once the puppy has been taught to gently mouth rather than bite, it is time to reduce the frequency of mouthing behaviour and teach the pup that mouthing is okay until requested to stop. Why? Because it is inconvenient to try to drink a cup of tea, or to answer the telephone, with 50 pounds of pup dangling from your wrist, that's why.

It is better to first teach the "OFF!" command using a food lure (as demonstrated in the Sirius video*). The deal is this: "If you don't touch this food treat for just two seconds after I softly say "Off", I will say "Take it" and you can have the treat." Once the pup has mastered this simple task, up the ante to three seconds of non-contact, and then five, eight, 12, 20 and so on. Count out the seconds and praise the dog with each second: "Good dog one, good dog two, good dog three…" and so forth. If the pup touches the treat before being told to take it, shout "Off!" and start the count from zero again. The pup quickly learns that it can not have the treat until it has not touched it for, say, eight seconds – the quickest way to get the treat is not to touch it for the first eight seconds. In addition, the regular handfeeding during this exercise helps preserve the pup's soft mouth. Once the pup understnads the "Off!" request, it may be used effectively when the puppy is mouthing. Say "Off!" and praise the pup and give it a treat when it lets go. Remember, the essence of this exercise is to practise stopping the dog from mouthing – each time the pup obediently ceases and desists, resume playing once more. Stop and start the session many times over. Also, since the puppy wants to mouth, the best reward for stopping mouthing is to allow it to mouth again. When you decide to stop the mouthing session altogether, heel the pup to the kitchen and give it an especially tasty treat.

If ever the pup refuses to release your hand when requested, shout "Off!", rapidly extricate your hand and storm out of the room mumbling, "Right. That's done it, you jerk! You've ruined it! Finish! Over! No more!" and shut the door in the dog's face. Give the pup a couple of minutes on its own and then go back to call the pup to come and sit and make up. But no more mouthing for at least a couple of hours. In addition to using "Off!" during bite inhibition training, the request has many other useful applications: not to touch the cat, the Sunday roast on the table, the table, the baby's soiled diapers, the baby, an aggressive dog, a fecal deposit of unknown denomination… Not only does this exercise teach the "Off!" request, but also to "Take it" on request.

Never start mouthing unless requested.
By the time the pup is five months old, it must have a mouth as soft as a 14-year-old working Lab; it should never exert any pressure when mouthing, and the dog should immediately stop mouthing when requested to do so by any family member. Unsolicited mouthing is utterly inappropriate from an older adolescent or an adult dog. It would be absolutely unacceptable for a six-month-old dog to approach a child and commence mouthing her arm, no matter how gentle the mouthing or how friendly and playful the dog's intentions. This is the sort of situation which gives parents the heebie-jeebies and frightens the living daylights out of the mouthee. At five months of age, at the very latest, the dog should be taught never to touch any person's body – not even clothing – with its jaws unless specifically requested.

Whether or not the dog will ever be requested to mouth people depends on the individual owner. Owners that have the mental largesse of a toothpick quickly let play-mouthing get out of control, which is why many dog training texts strongly recommend not indulging in games such as play-fighting. However, it is essential to continue bite inhibition exercises, otherwise the dog's bite will begin to drift and become harder as the dog grows older. For such people, I recommend that they regularly hand-feed the dog and clean its teeth – exercises that involve the human hand in the dog's mouth. On the other hand, for owners who have a full complement of common sense, there is no better way to maintain the dog's soft mouth than by play-fighting with the dog on a regular basis. However, to prevent the dog from getting out of control and to fully realize the many benefits of play-fighting, the owner must play by the rules and teach the dog to play by the rules. (Play-fighting rules are described in detail in our Preventing Aggression behaviour bookelt.*)

Play-fighting teaches the dog to mouth hands only (hands are extremely sensitive to pressure) and never clothing. Since shoelaces, trousers and hair have no neurons and cannot feel, the owner cannot provide the necessary feedback that the dog is once more beginning to mouth too hard. The game also teaches the dog that it must adhere to rules regarding its jaws, regardless of how worked up it may be. Basically, play-fighting teaches the owner to practice controlling the dog when it is excited. It is important to refine such control in a structured setting, before a real-life situation occurs.

In addition, play-fighting quickly becomes play-training. Starting the games with a training period, i.e., with the dog under control in a down-stay, produces utterly solid stays at a time when the dog is excited in vibrant anticipation of the game. Similarly, frequent stopping the game for short periods and integrating multiple training interludes (especially heel work and recalls) into the game motivates the dog to provide eager and speedy responses. Each time the owner stops the game, he or she may use the resumption of play as a reward for bona fide obedience. Everything's fun!

Potential problems
Inhibiting incidence before force
A common mistake is to punish the pup in an attempt to get it to stop biting altogether. At the best, the puppy no longer mouths those family members who can effectively punish the dog but, instead, the pup directs its mouthing sprees toward those family members who cannot control it, e.g., a child. To worsen matters, parents are often completely unaware of the child's plight because the pup does not mouth adults. At worst, the puppy no longer mouths people at all. Hence, its education about the force of its bite stops right there. All is fine until someone accidentally shuts the car door on the dog's tail, whereupon the dog bites and punctures the skin, because the dog had insufficient bite inhibition.

Puppies that don't bite
Shy dogs seldom socialize or play with other dogs or strangers. Hence, they do not play-bite and hence, they learn nothing about the power of their jaws. The classic case history is of a dog that never mouthed or bit as a pup and never bit anyone as an adult – that is, until an unfamiliar child tripped and fell on the dog. The first bite of the dog's career left deep puncture wounds, because the dog had developed no bite inhibition. With shy puppies, socialization is of paramount importance, and time is of the essence. The puppy must quickly be socialized sufficiently, so that it commences playing (and hence, biting) before it is four-and-a-half months old.

If a puppy does not frequently mouth and bite and/or does not occasionally bite hard, it is an emergency. The puppy must learn its limits. And it can only learn its limits by exceeding them during development and receiving the appropriate feedbacks.
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post #7 of 28 (permalink) Old 10-20-2016, 07:24 PM
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I am so with bug here. What a Doberman puppy craves is attention. Remove that as a motivation and they quickly learn that there is no reward for the unwanted behavior.

Saying NO...NO..NO actually exacerbates the "play mode". Putting hands on a playing pup is even worse. Physically admonishing is totally playing into their game.

The "sneakers" thing.... Ugh. Anybody that does not "puppy proof" their home is simply asking for trouble. Get a grip. My last 4 dogs have had free rein of the house by 5 months. You remove attractive nuisances, limit their initial exposure to rooms and allow them access as they prove they can deal with it. Its pretty much a no-brainer. I can't figure out why so many people have an issue.

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post #8 of 28 (permalink) Old 07-25-2017, 11:48 PM
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Hello, I have a 11 weeks old female Doberman puppy. I understand that a puppy goes through a teething stage. But her biting is just getting worse day by day!!!!! My three year old nephew has gotten bit by her and started to bleed. My entire family has a bunch of teeth marks and scratch marks all over. Her biting just gets intense every second. We have tried banging a wall to create a loud noise whenever she started to bite. We tried grabbing her snout and telling her firmly no, pushing her away and telling her firmly no, wincing like a small puppy, neglecting her until she calmed down, and have tried substituting a chew toy. But absolutely nothing has worked. She would be such a sweet puppy for a good 30 minutes then all of a sudden she would just start to jump and bite. I get how her biting can be her way of wanting to play or playing but it just hurts way too much!! Is there any real effective way to stop all this biting or telling her that biting human skin is just not okay? Please please help.

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post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old 07-26-2017, 04:58 AM
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The grabbing the snout will not work. It is like you biting her and its attention that is what she wants.

when she bites she gets no attention and all fun stops and is ignored.

Or a firm no or no bite and redirect with a favorite toy so she learns bite to skin is bad bite to toy is fun.

Remember she is a baby and does not know anything. Its going to take time but she will learn.
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post #10 of 28 (permalink) Old 07-26-2017, 02:01 PM
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She is still trying to play with you (generic humans) as if they were dogs so she does what dogs do. Her litter mates would stop playing with her the instant she bit hard enough to hurt--and they would go away and refuse to interact with her.

Take a lesson from them. I hate to be even mouthed by dogs much less nipped, chewed on or bitten by puppies with their razor sharp teeth. So in my house there is no such thing as soft bites--it's no bite. If a puppy bites me while I'm playing with them all play stops. If there is a convenient door I walk through it and shut it in their face. I don't even bother saying "NO" because a lot of puppies don't have a real concept about what exactly "no" means.

I don't stay gone for a long time--maybe 20 or 30 seconds but long enough for the puppy to cool their jets and get to wondering what just happened.

Usually that's enough to stop the biting--if not and the puppy comes back for another try at nipping they go into their crate for a time out--I'm not mean about it but often a puppy who is biting is so ramped up they can't stop by themselves and like a naughty toddler child often fall asleep immediately when confined. I don't keep them crated for long--one or two minutes if they didn't fall asleep.

There are a number of things that really don't work and you've tried most of them--making loud noises doesn't usually work because you don't get much of an association between the noise and the biting. Grabbing snouts often does nothing because most pups think that you are playing with them. Screaming as if hurt does work with some puppies especially if you get up and stop interacting with them at all--it's all about attention so if you withdraw the attention--that's what gets the puppy's attention. Substituting a toy for your hands, legs, clothing etc works with some puppies but not by all of them--mostly because by the time a puppy starts biting they are often over the top with excitement--which is why removing yourself does work--it gives the puppy time to calm down.

The three year old is a situation that simply involves the kid not being allowed to interact with the puppy. The puppy will try to play with the child as if it were another puppy and puppies bite other puppies and a three year old isn't going to be able to handle the leave the room routine--they inevitably either run--so the puppy chases them and jumps on them or scream which rarely stops the biting. With puppies and little kids the answer is an ex pen--but either the kid or the puppy in it--and remember that both the puppy and the kid will grow up, the puppy will learn not to bite and the kid will figure out how to say "NO BITE!"

Everyone in the house needs to be on the same page though. Don't play games with the puppy that involves getting hands in the puppy's mouth. Choose toys that the puppy can bite and if she misses--stop playing, go away. Find a good tug toy and play tug--same rule--don't miss and bite me or we don't play. Teach the puppy to chase and retrieve a ball outside.

You puppy doesn't know your rules (no bite) you have to teach that and depriving the puppy of your attention is the fastest way to teach them that rules for playing with people are very different than rules for playing with other dogs.

Good luck.
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post #11 of 28 (permalink) Old 07-31-2017, 09:53 AM
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Doberman puppies (from my 5 or 6 weeks of direct experience) are SATAN. When they aren't biting you it's because they are distracted into biting something or someone else. They'll return to biting you soon. The only good news is that they SUPPOSEDLY grow out of the bitey-phase. Can't happen soon enough.

Our puppy has bitten everyone we know despite warning them. I'd never let him near a child of any variety. No way.
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post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-03-2017, 10:25 AM
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This is our second Dobe pup, and they are so, so different. Our first dog, Uno, was, well, perfect. This pup, Jefe, not so much. He's very sweet, sometimes. He's also a terror, sometimes. We work hard, as with our first pup, to socialize and train. He's exposed to lots of places, dogs, people, etc., as we can make time for. Actually, he does pretty good when he's out with us. He was impossible to walk until we started using the chest pull harness along with short leashing him. Now, we say "heel", pull him up close, and he walks like a champ right next to me. A little forward of a true heel, but fine for now. He's 95% housebroke, sits, down, come, eyes, speaks. Sits before meals and after walks to remove his gear. He's good for vet visits, washing, ear posting, and more. Sounds great, huh? Not so fast. He goes into this aggressive mode more and more. He challenges my wife all the time, and now I'm on his target list too. He seems to get mad. Goes down in front, starts growling, then progresses to barking/growling, jumping up and snapping, not biting, but he will try to sneak in a nip if he can. My wife can't walk across the room without being play attacked. Jumping up, grabbing her clothes, snapping at her. He can be pretty scary, even at 15 weeks. Now, even with me, he tries to start something. Biting at the leash, growling, barking, jumping. I always put him in the crate for a timeout, but that doesn't seem to work, for long. When he's let out, he settles for a while, then he's back at it again. We crate him two to three times a day for two hours, plus any "timeouts" he has during the day. He's going to Petco puppy class, and we plan to use our regular trainer starting around 5 months old. If we survive! :-) We went through a lot with our first pup, but this aggression thing is new to us. We just can't seem to find what works. He simply CANNOT jump and bark/nip at my wife every time she comes into the room... Yes, I get up and try to help her, grab him, crate him, make him submit, whatever, BUT this dog is very strong willed. HELP!
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There have been a lot of folks here recently complaining about what seems to be a very common Doberman puppy trait. I can't be of any help, simply because I tend to ignore it. My guy McCoy was an absolute terror on paws for his first few months. When he and Sheriff played, it looked to the untrained eye that they were trying to kill each other. Then about the time he was done teething, this behavior slowly dissipated. Today a 3 yo he still goes berserk sometime trying to play. But he never bites. He does get some pretty fair cases of the "zoomies". LOL

Good luck and trust that: "This too will pass......"

John
Portland OR
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post #14 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-03-2017, 12:29 PM
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My female Doberman does this too, but I don't see it as aggression or dominance. If she thinks she's in trouble she will will bow down and bark and spin and smile. She also plays pretty wild with me and my Great Dane. She will mouth but she won't bite. She only does it with me and my husband, not with the kids or our friends. Frankly, I think its kind of cute, she's a sassy little thing. She's 2, so not sure if she will grow out of it. I do notice that the behavior escalates when she isn't getting enough exercise, both mental and physical. For instance, the weather sucks right now so we haven't been doing as much and she's been driving me a bit crazy.

If you really don't like it with the puppy, maybe try tethering the dog with you so you can prevent it from happening in the first place? Or try teaching an incompatible behavior, like mat work?
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post #15 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-03-2017, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudnHouston View Post
This is our second Dobe pup, and they are so, so different. Our first dog, Uno, was, well, perfect. This pup, Jefe, not so much. He's very sweet, sometimes. He's also a terror, sometimes. We work hard, as with our first pup, to socialize and train. He's exposed to lots of places, dogs, people, etc., as we can make time for. Actually, he does pretty good when he's out with us. He was impossible to walk until we started using the chest pull harness along with short leashing him. Now, we say "heel", pull him up close, and he walks like a champ right next to me. A little forward of a true heel, but fine for now. He's 95% housebroke, sits, down, come, eyes, speaks. Sits before meals and after walks to remove his gear. He's good for vet visits, washing, ear posting, and more

Sounds great, huh? Not so fast.
Yeah, it does sound great...

Quote:
He goes into this aggressive mode more and more. He challenges my wife all the time, and now I'm on his target list too. He seems to get mad. Goes down in front, starts growling, then progresses to barking/growling, jumping up and snapping, not biting, but he will try to sneak in a nip if he can.
This isn't aggression or dominance!!!! This is a puppy invitation to play and since he's inviting both you and your wife to play on puppy terms you need to teach him that isn't going to happen. I would probably put a leash on him and keep it on him all the time until you have faded the puppy play stuff and taught him more appropriate ways to interact with people. But in general I treat it like I do puppy biting, nipping and mouthing--I hate being mouthed even if it doesn't end in a bite so when a puppy does this I remove myself from all interaction with the puppy. I walk through a door and shut it in their face. Come back and if the puppy is still trying bite he gets crated. I don't say no, I don't even talk to them--that's attention and that's what they are looking for.

Quote:
My wife can't walk across the room without being play attacked. Jumping up, grabbing her clothes, snapping at her. He can be pretty scary, even at 15 weeks.
Well, it really is just a puppy invitation to play--and you really (both you and your wife) need to stop it in its tracks--I would do much the same thing I do with the nipping and biting. Leave--or if you have a leash on the puppy--pick it up and take him to his crate. Insert puppy in crate and leave for a couple of minutes. Do not give the behavior any more attention than possible. Dogs (even puppies )only do what work--if inviting play this way doesn't work--never works he'll try something else and I'd be teaching him things that would work--inviting him to bring you a toy and toss it for him for instance.

Quote:
Now, even with me, he tries to start something. Biting at the leash, growling, barking, jumping. I always put him in the crate for a timeout, but that doesn't seem to work, for long. When he's let out, he settles for a while, then he's back at it again.
He's still trying to play by puppy rules--it's worked in the past (he's gotten attention...) so the dog brain works in predictable ways (if something works once, maybe it'll work again) and he keeps doing it. To stop it you will need to fade that behavior and find something that will work instead. Again--I'd crate him immediately when this behavior starts. With out fanfare or discussion. The timeout shouldn't last long because his puppy brain will end up not knowing why he's there. Two or three minutes. Then let him out--it doesn't work for long because he's going to keep trying what has worked in the past. As soon as it starts again--crate him again. Repeat until he "gets" it. Find a toy that he'll play with by himself, give that to him after you let him out of the crate. Puppies don't have long attention spans so it's really a stop the behavior and repeat as necessary--EVERY TIME--corrections that are only made part of the time or not by everyone end up not really working.

Quote:
We crate him two to three times a day for two hours, plus any "timeouts" he has during the day. He's going to Petco puppy class, and we plan to use our regular trainer starting around 5 months old. If we survive! :-) We went through a lot with our first pup, but this aggression thing is new to us. We just can't seem to find what works. He simply CANNOT jump and bark/nip at my wife every time she comes into the room... Yes, I get up and try to help her, grab him, crate him, make him submit, whatever, BUT this dog is very strong willed. HELP!
First of all you need to repeat several times a day--"This is NOT aggression..." Really it isn't. Start crating him each and every time he starts to play this way. Your wife needs to be totally involved with retraining to fade this behavior. It will work--but it needs to be repeated each time it happens with NO exceptions. Forget making him "submit"--I wish everyone would forget about the "dominate" business--that's not what is happening with your puppy.

I sound like a broken record these days--he's trying to get you to play, to pay attention to him--every time it works even to the extent of unfavorable attention ("making him submit") it gives him a reason to keep trying the behavior.

I hope you can make some of these suggestions work--but until you get your wife on the same page he's going to keep puppy bowing, barking, growling and jumping at her because she is clearly reacting.

And don't let him bite the leash--that has to be one of the most irritating puppy habit of all...

Good luck.

PS--you will survive--he's doing well and is well behaved in so many other areas you know he gets this stuff--I think he is locked in on the puppy play invitation because it's worked for him not because he has any bad intentions. Consistency is the main ingredient in fading this particular behavior.
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post #16 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-03-2017, 04:04 PM
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Wow Bud - Your first person I have read on here having a DOBIE pup full of pizz and vinegar - lol

They say -- that your eyes are the windows to your sole - I would like for you to go back up and look at the pic you posted and look at his eyes - It tells his story - If you could - reply back to me and tell Ken what you see : ))) I think you will pick it up .

Bug has a GREAT reply !

Our trainer taught had me do what they call -- set on the dog = set on the lead - This is where you put the collar on and lead and then make them sit and stay for a half hour - if he gets up the clock starts over - You may as I did at the time - think this is imposable - But he picked it up pretty quick - it was my space and he was to respect it - WARNIMG --- Don't sit down the first time and have a beer doing this - as it could take a twelve pack to get the first class in ! This is NO s--t !

He will be OK - He's just a puppy and will grow out of it - Enjoy your time with them - every second - good or bad - time pass's very fast !

Ken
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECIN View Post
Wow Bud - Your first person I have read on here having a DOBIE pup full of pizz and vinegar - lol

They say -- that your eyes are the windows to your sole - I would like for you to go back up and look at the pic you posted and look at his eyes - It tells his story - If you could - reply back to me and tell Ken what you see : ))) I think you will pick it up .

Bug has a GREAT reply !

Our trainer taught had me do what they call -- set on the dog = set on the lead - This is where you put the collar on and lead and then make them sit and stay for a half hour - if he gets up the clock starts over - You may as I did at the time - think this is imposable - But he picked it up pretty quick - it was my space and he was to respect it - WARNIMG --- Don't sit down the first time and have a beer doing this - as it could take a twelve pack to get the first class in ! This is NO s--t !

He will be OK - He's just a puppy and will grow out of it - Enjoy your time with them - every second - good or bad - time pass's very fast !

Ken
^^ Did the same with puppy Kelly, but used the 20 minute Calm rule / every time our son visited with his 7# little Trevor...both tried to torment the other, and be King of the Castle.
- puppy Kelly being much bigger, needed to learn some calming techniques
- since I often sit at my computer table, a 5' leash was tied to one of the legs of the desk
- young Kelly's collar was clipped to the leash while Dad sat a few feet away, to supervise / and browse DT
(kill 2 birds with one stone...LOL)
- she was asked to lay down, beside the desk
- 20 minutes in a down position, was timed until she got the message
- and puppy could be released into the living room again

From: https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/is...s_20259-1.html
Not every dog owner has access to large tracts of acreage upon which to exercise their unruly canines, and in any case, “wild child canine syndrome” (WCCS) is more than just lack of exercise; it’s also lack of appropriate reinforcement for calm behavior – i.e., training. Unfortunately, all too often a dog loses his happy home – maybe even his life, as a result of his high-energy behavior.

PS - just like some children get straight A's in school / others get average grades and some failing grades.
- puppies are all different in smarts, temperament & willingness to please...all individual & different
- some pups have Lower prey drive & easy / some more Medium / others have High drive & likely more independent

^^ I've had all 3 categories, in 3 pups / so training ranges from very easy to much more difficult.
- Uno & our Kel, must be related some......full of piss & vinegar

------------Kelly & (Amy - RIP @ 11.7 y/o)
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post #18 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-04-2017, 05:34 AM
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You are getting a lot of great advice. I differ a bit on one matter. When a puppy is doing this behavior I don not crate them for it. Here is the reason. They have lots of energy and this is when they are playful. So you take a puppy that has pent up energy and crate it? That energy isn't going to go away. Taking a pup for walks may make you tired it seldom will them. A Doberman needs to be able to run, run, and run some more. If you look at a Doberman structure you will notice how similar their build is to the sight hounds. A long distance runner will never get the exercise they need from a good brisk walk. This pup needs their energy redirected. This is one reason that multiple dogs can be a good thing as long as they are both fairly young and of similar size. They can tire each other out and at the same time the younger pup gets a training in manners from the slightly older dog.
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post #19 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-04-2017, 03:12 PM
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I definitely agree with RMcIntyre--he needs more exercise--running loose. Hopefully you can find someone with a dog or puppy of similar size and a place to let them run together so that your pup isn't eternally the energizer bunny of dogs simply because he isn't getting enough very active exercise.

Walking alone just isn't going to do it--if I had ever had any doubts I learned very quickly, when I was training a couple of my Dobes to track, that with the exception of the English Setters, my Dobes including the 10 week old puppy AFTER tracking for several hours (which included a ton of walking, could, when turned loose in the big farm fields run laps around the other dogs for miles and be ready to track again in the afternoon if anyone still had enough strength to lay a track.
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post #20 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-05-2017, 09:47 PM
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One thing I want to add, and I'm going to try to be as sensitive as possible...try your best to see your new boy as his own self. I know you lost your other dog really young, and it was really traumatic. And it's SO hard not to compare your new pup to your old dog, especially when the loss is fresh and you have so many memories. But...each dog is different. They learn differently, they mature differently and at different rates...if you look at this new little guy expecting him to be the same, to learn the same, to do things at the same rate...it'll be frustrating for the both of you. Do the best you can to see him for who he is. He will become a wonderful companion to you, even if that comes in a different route. He sounds like a normal pup....he'll get there. You've gotten lots of good advice. Enjoy the puppy days...they go too fast.


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post #21 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-06-2017, 07:09 AM
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Personally, I’d take all that beautiful pizazz and focus on you and use it to train! This guy, like all Dobermans, is a WORKING breed. They come (most of them) power-packed and downright brilliant. They come with blazing focus and energy. Use it!! Trying and using the puppy’s brain will wear him out AND give you a wonderfully behaved dog that can’t take his eyes off of you. The more you train together the stronger your bond grows. It’s addictive!

So, rejoice in all those awesome breed traits! Don’t shut them away in a crate for then he will just grow in frustration and bad habits. Give him a job. PLAY with him and make the training joyful and fun. Here are some great links to get you started. Keep us posted on the fun you are having!

https://pin.it/7HRbvFz


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post #22 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-06-2017, 07:14 AM
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I'd also add that nose games can really wear a puppy (or any dog!) out...I found it to be my saving grace with Sypha when she was young (and still!)...she is a dog with a ton of drive.


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post #23 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-04-2018, 10:34 AM
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This is an excellent take on puppy biting. I'm going to copy the blog post in case the link gets changed, but it's copyright Meagan Karnes at the Collared Scholar. Original is here: An Exercise in Frustration: Why I never teach bite inhibition to puppies | The Collared Scholar
__________________________________________________ ____________________

The door flung open and behind it stood a woman dressed in sweatpants in a t-shirt. She was clearly exhausted and looked like she was in desperate in need of either a strong cup of coffee or a full glass of wine – I couldn’t tell which.

A look of reprieve washed over her as I introduced myself.

“I’m Meagan from the Collared Scholar,” I said. “I hear you have an unruly puppy on your hands”.

She smiled and ushered me inside, pointing to an oversized wire kennel where a roly-poly bully puppy slept belly up, snoring slightly, so deep in slumber she didn’t even hear me arrive.

The woman explained her plight. But to be honest, she didn’t have to. Her arms looked like she got into a fight with a gang of stray cats…and lost. She must have had about a dozen scratches running from elbow to wrist, and her hands were dotted with scrapes and bruises.

She was dealing with the dreaded “Puppy Teeth”.

Instantly I thought back to my own puppy experiences when I brought home Koby before I knew anything about dogs except that I loved them.

Koby’s bites regularly had me fleeing, climbing atop the back of the sofa because, at that point, he couldn’t quite jump up to grab me.

“What do you do to stop the biting?” I asked as I again glanced at her wounded arms, and then over to the puppy who began to stir softly.

“Well,” she explained, “I’ve been told I need to teach bite inhibition, so I shriek loudly when she bites…but, to be honest, it seems to send her into even more of a frenzy.”

Turns out, this well-intentioned new puppy owner had, in fact, tried a plethora of fixes including coating her hands in Tabasco sauce (which her puppy seemed to love) and grabbing her puppy’s snout (which only seemed to make her mad).

She had researched and read and she wanted badly to control her puppy’s bite, but up until that point, she only seemed to be making matters worse. It seemed her efforts were simply an exercise in frustration.

Here’s an excerpt from the Whole Dog Journal regarding bite inhibition.

“In the dog training world, bite inhibition is defined as a dog’s ability to control the pressure of his mouth when biting, to cause little or no damage to the subject of the bite. We know that all dogs have the potential to bite, given the wrong set of circumstances. Some dogs readily bite with little apparent provocation, but even the most saintly dog, in pain, or under great stress, can be induced to bite. When a bite happens, whether frequently or rarely, bite inhibition is what makes the difference between a moment of stunned silence and a trip to the nearest emergency room for the victim (and perhaps the euthanasia room for the dog).” (Read the article in Whole Dog Journal here).

Now, remember that article I wrote a while back on why I don’t socialize my puppies? Well, hold onto your hats folks because here I go again…

I’m going to let you in on a little secret. And you may decide we can’t be friends anymore. But hopefully, you’ll hear me out when I say it….

Here goes…..

I don’t teach bite inhibition to my puppies. EVER.



I know. Big gasps and sighs, and lots of folks downright disgusted that I say that.

But truth is, after raising dozens upon dozens of puppies, and whelping litters for some pretty influential trainers, I learned one very important thing…

Puppies bite.

And puppies with drive bite more.

Thing is, puppies explore the world with their mouths. They play with one another with teeth and paws. They wrestle…at times HARD…and they have a blast doing it. They pick up things in their mouths and carry them around, they chew, they pounce, and they shred.

This is what puppies do. And stopping them from doing what is natural for them can cause significant frustration and fallout.

Now advocates will have you believe that if you don’t turn off a puppy’s bite pressure early, they can pose a dangerous risk to society when they get older. But after spending nearly a decade rehabilitating hundreds of aggressive dogs, I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that if a dog is “in pain, or under great stress”, they are going to bite hard. I don’t care how much “bite inhibition” work you think you’ve done. I promise it won’t translate.

Now, I know what you are thinking.

You’re thinking “She trains working dogs that are SUPPOSED to bite.” And you’d be right. Yes, I teach working dogs for the most part. These days, I train dogs for personal protection and protection sports where dogs need to know how to bite, and they need to know to bite hard. But the truth is, it doesn’t matter what the dog is being raised for, I’ve never once taught bite inhibition.

Not to my Malinois…

Or the several Malinois and Dutch Shepherd litters I’ve raised…

Not to my Great Dane…

Not to my Basset Hounds…

Not to my Border Collie…

Not to the litter of bloodhounds I raised…

Or the litter of Weimeraners I raised…

And certainly not to the litter of dachshund mixes I raised…

In fact, I’m bringing in a new lab puppy and you can bet I won’t attempt to teach her to control her bite, despite the fact she is going to be a family pet and obedience competitor.

And here’s the thing. Will the lab puppy bite? Absolutely. And did every puppy I’ve ever raised bite…and bite hard when they were young? You bet. Did it hurt at times? Absolutely. Did I stop them? Never.

I’ve NEVER taught bite inhibition.

And the crazy thing is, I can play wrestle and roughhouse with ANY one of my dogs as adults, those trained to bite and those not, and they ALWAYS control their bite pressure. Did I have to teach them that when they were young? Nope. Not at all. Because let’s face it, folks, our dogs aren’t idiots.

Here are some common solutions for getting crazy puppies not to bite.

Shriek, yell “Ouch!” or make another startling noise to mimic the sound another puppy would make in play if his mate bit him too hard and it hurt. Listen, you can try to mimic another dog as much as you want. But you aren’t fooling anyone. I know you aren’t a dog. And your puppy knows you aren’t a dog. And you shrieking and being foolish makes you sound an awful lot like prey, squealing to escape. This can be a SUPER fun game for young puppies and it can actually make matters worse.
Put Tabasco on your hands. Not only does this not faze many dogs, but Tabasco isn’t healthy for young puppies to ingest. Not to mention, if it gets in their eyes, you can create a serious negative association with your new puppy.
Hold your dog’s mouth closed, or make them bite their own lips . Yikes. And Ouch! If you want your puppy not to come near you, and to think you are a big fat meany, please, go right ahead. But punishing a puppy who is just doing what puppies do, and who is simply PLAYING is not cool and can lead to all sorts of behavioral problems down the road.
Blow in the puppy’s face. They’ll bite your nose. Try it. I dare you.
Bite Your Puppy Back. Seriously? I have no words. Remember, you are not a dog. And your puppy is not an idiot.
And the list goes on..

Ok. So how do you combat those razor sharp teeth when your puppy mouths?

Two words.

Crate. And Toys.

Malinois puppy with toyMake sure you always have appropriate chew toys at the ready and offer them to your puppy when he or she gets worked up. Give them something APPROPRIATE to bite. It’s your puppy’s natural instinct to bite and play, so make sure those instincts are satiated in a productive and appropriate way.

Plainly stated, teach them what to bite. Don’t teach them not to bite.

Now at this point, they may choose to bite you over the toy and why not? You move, jerk away and shriek at times…and that’s WAY more fun than that dead toy laying on the ground.

The key to redirecting your puppy to bite appropriate things is to make those things more fun than you are. Make the toys MOVE MORE, and make your arms and legs MOVE LESS. If you are racing around with a toy in your hand, your puppy is going to want to bite whatever is moving the most – and more often than not, that’s your legs are arms. So reel it in a bit, sit down if you have to, and make sure the toy is what is moving most.

If your dog gets too rambunctious, some good quiet crate time is a simple solution. Give them a yummy bone to chew on and let them rest. And you get some rest too. Take a break from your puppy until he or she chills out.

And here’s one more word of wisdom when it comes to those razor sharp puppy teeth that nobody loves.

Your puppy WILL grow out of it. So don’t spend your days frustrating your puppy by trying to go against the grain and turn off their natural instincts. Instead, play with your puppy, redirect your puppy to toys, and wait for them to grow up. I promise those puppy teeth will be gone before you know it.


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post #24 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-11-2018, 05:44 PM
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Excerpts from the AAHA brochure "Piranha Puppies"*


Don't Make Things Worse

"The first step in managing a dog who uses her mouth early and often is to ignore and not encourage the behavior if it is directed at you….You do not want to be in the position of having to push or otherwise detach your puppy from your body or clothing, as she may misinterpret this as an invitation for more rough play…."


[This means don’t tease the puppy; don’t grab a toy out of her mouth; don’t wave your hands around in front of her where she might be tempted to bite in play. It’s no fair tempting her beyond her limit—she’s a baby and just learning how to behave.]

"Be careful not to inadvertently reward the behavior. If biting works to get your attention, the behavior will continue…."

[The best way to deal with a biting puppy is to ignore the puppy. Turn your back; stop interacting. If that doesn’t work, calmly put her in her crate or a safe place. Picking her up to try to calm her down, using a playful voice or petting her if she’s biting will give her the attention she craves—and she’s not likely to quit her obnoxious behavior.]

"Avoid verbal and physical punishment and corrections….This kind of intervention is likely to make the biting problem worse, damage the bond with your pet, and lead to more serious problems, such as fear and aggression. Worse yet, the occasional puppy may actually find these harsh corrections to be a big game, which only encourages harder biting and increases risk….”

[No swatting, pushing the puppy away, yelling, rolling the puppy on her back, grabbing her muzzle or sticking your fingers in her mouth. If she’s really wound up, she may even treat your negative corrections as an invitation to play.]


Channel That Energy

"If your puppy is constantly demanding attention by mouthing or biting or is playing too rough, then you will need to provide other ways to keep her brain and body active...."


[Give her an outlet for all of that puppy energy. Remember mental work can tire her out too—but keep your training sessions brief. Frequent, short and sweet works best.]

"Another way to channel your puppy's energy is to provide frequent opportunities for playing with other friendly dogs….Remember the training mantra, 'A tired puppy is a good puppy.’"

[Use caution with Dobermans—they may intimidate other dogs with their rough play, and, especially as they mature, can develop same sex aggression. A dobe at play with another dog should always be supervised.]


Communicate with Your Puppy

"Enroll your pet in companion dog manners classes as soon as possible. Good training should be positive, meet your dog's needs, and help develop social life skills….”


[Learn together. Even if you think your puppy knows what she needs to know, classes will expose your puppy to all kinds of experiences that you can’t give her in your home. They will teach YOU how to work with your puppy to get the best results, and give you a knowledgeable person to help you figure out how to deal with any problem behavior.]

"Teach your puppy what behaviors you expect of her before she gets any rewards. For example, ask her to sit before giving her things she wants…."

[But don’t wait until she gets up again or starts wiggling around to reward her. If you do, you will be rewarding the wrong behavior.]


Control Your Puppy

"A dragline can be a helpful tool for managing your pup's biting behavior....”


[Sometimes your puppy may be out of reach when she misbehaves, or even play the keep-away game (come and catch me, haha). Attach a leash or long line to her and let her drag it behind her—you can grab that and reel her in if she won’t let you get close to her. Above all, though, don’t bribe her or call her to come to you if you need to correct her behavior or take her away from her fun time. Why should she come when called if she knows she will just be yelled at when she gets within reach?

Some puppies become problem chasers—they run after your children nipping or pulling at their clothes. Teach your children to stand still rather than screaming and running with a young puppy. Involve them in training the puppy so she will learn to listen to them too.

If your child is too young to understand that, he shouldn’t be playing at large with your puppy. Put a leash on the puppy, with your hand gripping the other end. Or put the puppy (or child !) in an x-pen; there will be plenty of time for them to play together when the puppy is older and more in control.]


Always, always supervise your kids with a puppy. Either one, child or puppy, can accidentally hurt the other, or develop bad habits if you’re not there to stop them and show them how to behave around each other.



*The AAHA behavior brochures were developed by a team of veterinarians and certified veterinary behaviorists to reflect best practices as outlined in the 2015 AAHA Canine and Feline Behavior Management Guidelines, available at http://aaha.org/professional/resourc...avior2015.aspx

Last edited by melbrod; 01-11-2018 at 08:26 PM.
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post #25 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2018, 01:01 AM
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So just reading this thread I have a question,I see some great advice.. but one thing that confuses me is the recommendation of putting the puppy in his crate after they keep biting..

Wouldn’t that be going against the whole crate training method of never using the crate as punishment?

Thanks!
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