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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-15-2016, 05:01 PM Thread Starter
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Puppy taken from dam and litter too early

Long story short, I've recently bought a doberman, being told he was 9 weeks old at the time, to find out he was only six weeks old when we bought him.

After noticing some issues with him, such as not knowing how hard he is biting when playing and occasionally snarling and raising his hackles when told off, I've took him to stay with my sister and her female dog. The hope is the bitch can teach him some socialisation skills and what's right and wrong.

After being frightened at the start, he seems to be improving already after just a couple of hours with her.

Anybody else experienced and what advice do you have? I want him to be raised in a family home.

Thankyou.
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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-15-2016, 05:27 PM Thread Starter
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Here he is with my sisters dog (hopefully this image works)
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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-15-2016, 09:07 PM
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That is early to be cut loose from the mom. You need to stay close to that dog as much as you can with your schedule. I would take him with you when you are out and about. Good move with your sisters dog the more time with her the better as well. Let him know he is biting to hard may be a hi pitch yelp. He is real little. I almost would let him mouth a bit. My dog is going through adolescences and is mouthy again but no more dobersharking anymore. Your dog is going to bite you do not freak out on that dog especially with the early separation from the mom. He looks like a nice puppy. That Pit bull is a fine looking dog. We got Anzio at 8 weeks. He is 7.5 months now and 75 lbs.

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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 10:03 AM
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Welcome! Love the picture of the two dogs, looks like they are bonding.

A couple of things I would like to address:

It's important for a puppy to feel like they left one family to join another. Imagine going over to someone's house and they were all nice and welcoming and then "told you off". You'd be pissed and want to leave right? That's what he's telling you. I NEVER give a correction or "tell off" any new foster dog or a new puppy. I softly say "no" or "ack" or grab their attention and then redirect. You need to form a bond before a correction can be made. Bonding time differs but isn't usually less than a few weeks. You need to keep your rules but nicely enforce them for a while as they are learning.

Also, what does "telling a dog off" entail? They don't speak English so I'm not sure what this is? They need short firm words when they are doing something you don't like and sweet soft words when they are. Make sure all interactions with you aren't always negative, praise them up for the positive things they are doing. Corrections should NEVER be made out of anger or with emotion.

Have you worked on crate training? Are your praising for pottying outside and taking them out often? Until my puppies are about 8 mo. old I have training treats in all pockets at all times. So much so that you should find some in your washer lol.

Lastly, I would advise finding a trainer. Telling your puppy off is not an advisable training method. It's well worth the money and will help you bond with your dog. I would look for a trainer who doesn't say "Hi, now let's put a prong collar or ecollar on your puppy" and instead works with you to train and bond to your dog.

Best of luck with you and your boy they are a LOT of work but continue training and you will have the dog you've always wanted.
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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 03:52 PM Thread Starter
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Thankyou for the replies.

He seems to be coming on in leaps and bounds these past few days.

Sorry I was generalising when I said "a telling off". I did in fact mean using short words such as "no" and "stop". And yes we praise him as often as we can for going to the toilet outside and listening to commands etc.

We are regularly using treats as a reward but are a little dubious on how often to give him treats. This is due to reading on a few articles that constant rewarding with treats can lead to them only behaving well for the sake of a treat. Or misbehaving then behaving to earn the reward. Have you found this to be a thing @Gretchen_Red ?

And yes we have recently began crate training him properly whilst he is at my sisters, the issue at home being that we have a 14 week old daughter, and he makes a racket when he first goes into his crate. Again though, he seems to be coming on in leaps and bounds with that as well.

We are also currently looking for a well established trainer in our area to begin some training and bonding, something we are very excited to do.

And lastly to @slimwomack thankyou, that's a fine dobe you have there!

Again thankyou for the replies and any other feedback and advice is welcome.
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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 01:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shents93 View Post
Long story short, I've recently bought a doberman, being told he was 9 weeks old at the time, to find out he was only six weeks old when we bought him.

After noticing some issues with him, such as not knowing how hard he is biting when playing and occasionally snarling and raising his hackles when told off, I've took him to stay with my sister and her female dog. The hope is the bitch can teach him some socialisation skills and what's right and wrong.

After being frightened at the start, he seems to be improving already after just a couple of hours with her.

Anybody else experienced and what advice do you have? I want him to be raised in a family home.

Thankyou.
Your issue isn't as big as mine :-)

My doberman (Bheeshma) was just four weeks old when we brought him home and he was just impossible to handle. We had to spend a lot of time teaching him not to bite, not to be aggressive with our 2 year old toddler. There were times when we would get so restless with him that we actually wanted to return him back to the breeder.

But things changed quickly. In about a weeks time, we observed that Bheeshma was a quick learner. We were amazed to see how quickly he started responding to clicker training. We kept him busy with a lot of obedience lessons and he was responding like a pro. By the time he was 8 weeks, he had learnt sit, stand, fetch the ball, food impulse control, stay, heel etc. There seems to be a distinctive advantage on training a pup really young. May be you should try doing it with your pup.

Our pup is super disciplined now. He just turned 3 months.

Would like to hear the way you found your solution.

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SRSI

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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shents93 View Post
Thankyou for the replies.

He seems to be coming on in leaps and bounds these past few days.

Sorry I was generalising when I said "a telling off". I did in fact mean using short words such as "no" and "stop". And yes we praise him as often as we can for going to the toilet outside and listening to commands etc.

We are regularly using treats as a reward but are a little dubious on how often to give him treats. This is due to reading on a few articles that constant rewarding with treats can lead to them only behaving well for the sake of a treat. Or misbehaving then behaving to earn the reward. Have you found this to be a thing @Gretchen_Red ?

And yes we have recently began crate training him properly whilst he is at my sisters, the issue at home being that we have a 14 week old daughter, and he makes a racket when he first goes into his crate. Again though, he seems to be coming on in leaps and bounds with that as well.

We are also currently looking for a well established trainer in our area to begin some training and bonding, something we are very excited to do.

And lastly to @slimwomack thankyou, that's a fine dobe you have there!

Again thankyou for the replies and any other feedback and advice is welcome.
You are absolutely right that constant rewards will confuse a dog. "Redirecting" is simply rewarding a dog for bad behavior - "OUCH!! You're hurting me!! Here, let me give you a toy for biting my arm." .. Think about it, if you reward appropriate behavior with treats/toys, giving a dog a toy after they just bit you is /rewarding/ a dog for inappropriate behavior. I'm glad you are aware of that and did your research because there is a lot of horrible training advice passed around here, and I hate to see the breed get a bad name because of poor or improper training.
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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 11:19 AM
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MDRK9--about redirection--how do YOU work with a young puppy who is nipping too much--do you go straight to the isolation stage? Many nipping puppies see any kind of attention (negative or positive) as a reward; a nipping puppy wants attention and play. Redirection to me is simply showing him the proper way to play and to get attention--if he doesn’t quit the obnoxious nipping, isolation is the next step. But he needs to know that there is some way to communicate and play with you...just that biting is not the way that gets your attention.

Frankly, I’ve never had a problem with a bitey puppy. I give him the attention he wants and make the game fun by showing him a toy and then playing with him and the toy--if he messes up and keeps nipping--he goes in another room. Pretty soon the pup will start bringing me the toy to get me to play with him (or plays an obvious “come and get me" keep away with it, which is still a puppy form of play that you can modify with training when you want to).

On the other hand, one of the more common misuse of rewards that I see is when a person releases a dog from a stay and THEN rewards him. Then you really are rewarding the wrong behavior. You reward the dog WHILE he is staying--then release him without making a big deal of it.

Another related mistake I often see people make is to put their dog in a stay, put some food (or whatever you are using as a reward) on the floor and then after a length of time, release the dog and let him grab the food. I ALWAYS pick up the food, hand it to the dog with a “good boy” and then release him. That way, the dog learns that the ONLY way he is going to get that reward is through me and my actions. I can literally throw the dog’s treat at him and the dog maintains eye contact with me, waiting for his reward--from me. Sometimes I reward with food from my hand, and then pick up what is on the floor, put it in my pocket and then release the dog. The point is, he gets his reward, but only through my action.

About treat training--one of the parts of that kind of training (or any reward training) is that once the dog has learned the basic command, you begin to phase out the reward--you reward at irregular intervals--frequently at first and then less often. And you also start to string behaviors together before the dog is rewarded, so the dog waits longer between rewards (which can be praise, a chance to tug on a toy, a ball, and yes, food), and never knows when he will get a reward. It will teach him patience and better attention toward you, waiting for his praise. But you never take the reward away completely--everyone needs some reward to continue to try doing what someone else wants them to do.

It’s rather like the reason people gamble. “Next time I’m going to win the jackpot” keeps people going. If you never win, you will quit pretty quickly. If you get used to winning all the time, the first time you lose (or if you start losing often) you are more likely to quit. It’s that irregular unpredictable win, the reward, that gets people hooked.
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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyDogRulesK9 View Post
You are absolutely right that constant rewards will confuse a dog. "Redirecting" is simply rewarding a dog for bad behavior - "OUCH!! You're hurting me!! Here, let me give you a toy for biting my arm." .. Think about it, if you reward appropriate behavior with treats/toys, giving a dog a toy after they just bit you is /rewarding/ a dog for inappropriate behavior. I'm glad you are aware of that and did your research because there is a lot of horrible training advice passed around here, and I hate to see the breed get a bad name because of poor or improper training.
That's just simply untrue. Redirecting puppies to appropriate chews is not rewarding them for chewing on you.

OP, I always suggest people find a great local trainer to work with and form a lasting relationship with...having a wonderful trainer to have as a resource is worth their weight in gold. I suggest this as a starting place for people who have puppies: Certified Dog Trainer Directory - CCPDT
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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 02:05 PM
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Redirecting is 100% absolutely necessary. With dogs, kids, even adults. This is taught in every training guide (and in my professional training with humans as well -- works wonderfully! Way better than fighting or punishments).
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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 03:31 PM
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Redirection--think about it.

You can tell someone NO--but then what do they replace the empty space with?

Or you can give them another thing to do that is an acceptable behavior.

Don’t smoke; eat instead. LOL

Of course, overeating is NOT an acceptable way to stop smoking. But replacing one habit with another better choice..that is the way to go.
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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 04:04 PM
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So you teach a dog to do something in the exact same way you teach a dog not to do something and you expect the dog to be able to understand that? Good girl! Here's a cookie. Bad girl! Here's a cookie. Bite me, have a cookie. Sit, have a cookie. Lunge at dogs, have a cookie. Growl, let's ignore it. No... Dogs learn through positive and negative reinforcement. I'm not here to argue my methods or beliefs --- I have years of training experience and clients with previously "out of control" dogs to back me. I'm just glad that the owner of this dog has done research and knows that rewarding bad behavior will only increase bad behavior. Y'all have a nice day.
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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 04:59 PM
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I think you don't know what redirection actually is. It is not positive praise for negative behaviors.
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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 05:29 PM
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When you redirect a dog, he has to stop what he is doing and start another thing--stop biting and do this instead. If you were truly rewarding him with a toy for biting you, you would have to give him the toy while he remains biting you. Different.

When you say sit, you expect the dog to remain sitting to get his cookie. Then he is rewarded for that behavior.

When you say sit, if the dog sits and then gets up and runs around the room, obviously you’re not going to give the cookie for that behavior.

It’s all in the timing.


You still haven’t explained just how you stop a young puppy from biting you.
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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyDogRulesK9 View Post
So you teach a dog to do something in the exact same way you teach a dog not to do something and you expect the dog to be able to understand that? Good girl! Here's a cookie. Bad girl! Here's a cookie. Bite me, have a cookie. Sit, have a cookie. Lunge at dogs, have a cookie. Growl, let's ignore it. No... Dogs learn through positive and negative reinforcement. I'm not here to argue my methods or beliefs --- I have years of training experience and clients with previously "out of control" dogs to back me. I'm just glad that the owner of this dog has done research and knows that rewarding bad behavior will only increase bad behavior. Y'all have a nice day.
I am sure that you are the successful canine trainer tht you claim to be. Still, that does not mean that you gain any creedence here by swimming upstream. I have owned and personally trained my Dobermans for over 40 years.They are a breed apart from the the doggy masses. I rarely use a redirect on a puppy. But that's just me.....Anyone who knows me understands that I am way more forgiving than most with respect to "letting a puppy be a puppy". Still, redirection works for many who have Doberman puppies. IMO, it does not encourage unwanted behavior. That premise is just silly.

That being said.... It can a very effective and appropriate tool. With my 2 yo, I redirect all the time`. In fact, as I type this MCCoy was itching to go for an afternoon walk. He came up and pawed me, sitting a foot from my face. I directed him to his "tug" 2 minutes with "tug" and he just went up to his crate to wait me out. He was not "rewarded" for bugging me. I simply distracted his immediate focus.

Redirection is a benign first step in mitigating unwanted impromtu behavior. If is doesn't acheive the desired result, one moves on.

John
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post #16 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 09:07 PM
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Here’s what I mean about throwing food and then only letting the dog eat from your hand. Mind you in this picture Kip is almost 11, and I haven’t asked him for a food stay for years. And he does really LIKE string cheese

Excuse the fat--part of it is floppy shirt, part camera angle and part (most ) is...well...just fat.

[youtube=“food stay”]0pMn6yK5lIw[/youtube]
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post #17 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 09:36 PM
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@ Mel...

LOL. Fat... You're funny. My wife looked at me the other day in my "skivvies". She said: John, you seriously have to gain some weight. I reminded her that I wrestled at 120 in high school and held the weight class bench pressing title in college in my weight class (125-135). In my 40's I competed (for fun) in the bantamweight (135-140) class in martial arts.

We are what we are. Yeah, I could probably gain some weight, but its hard when some days I can barely walk. I imagine that you can relate.

What was with the Jeep ad? My son just bought a Grand Cherokee Overland. $54K . Ugh. Nice rig, still....
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post #18 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 09:45 PM
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Jeep ad? Did youtube do that to me? All I get after the video is over is 3 promotions for cat vids, one for dobes and one with Hillary on it.
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post #19 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 10:46 PM
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Dogs work for rewards. The reward for what you want done needs to be greater to the dog than their own reward. Behaviors should ALWAYS be taught through rewarding. Gradually decreasing the frequency of the reward. Once I'm 100% sure they they know what's expected and choose not to do it then I might use reinforcement. Dobermans are a breed that is very sensitive to corrections and hold grudges. I can tell you using reinforcement more often than reward will give you a dog who eventually doesn't want to work.

Don't take my word for it. Take WORLD REKNOWN TRAINER Susan Garretts word for it. This podcast is long but she has some AMAZING TRAINING TIPS!

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...a64e9b95229e94

Last edited by Gretchen_Red; 11-20-2016 at 10:49 PM.
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post #20 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by melbrod View Post
Jeep ad? Did youtube do that to me? All I get after the video is over is 3 promotions for cat vids, one for dobes and one with Hillary on it.
No... It was incorporated in your post. Gone now...
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post #21 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-28-2016, 04:25 PM
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I got my Brinks out of an unfortunate situation when he was 5 weeks old, he was so very scared in the beginning. You have to understand first off they are babies and babies of all kinds are much more easily overwhelmed by new experiences than us more been around the block types, I certainly would be all out of sorts all of a sudden being plucked away from my mama and siblings. Not saying you don't get that, just felt like verbalizing it I guess lol. I live in Florida and picked him up passing through Georgia on the way home from a trip, for seven hours he sat on my lap like a stuffed animal not making a peep. It is great you are able to socialize him with another adult dog, I had an older female pit waiting at home for us and she and along with my moms pit have been wonderful companions for him to grow up with.

When he was bitey I would act hurt and say no, then immediately get up and walk away/ignore him completely. Then I would offer him a proper item to chew on. I'm no trainer but he is now 9 months and hasn't tried to chew on me for quite some time.

Here is a photo of the little guy at 10 weeks and my pit Odyssey, if you look at my avatar you will notice he has grown quite a bit hehe




... Did I forget to mention he is positively adorable, and we require more photos?
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