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Knuckling Over Advice Please

14K views 35 replies 15 participants last post by  MeadowCat 
#1 ·
I just got my puppy, Monte on Thursday (16 weeks old)! The breeder kept him for an extra month because he was knuckling over. Eventually, I said, "if you are, for any reason, worried that is legs won't straighten out, keep him longer. If you are confident that they will straighten out, I'll go ahead and take him." At that point, she said, his legs are 95% better and I can have him. He looked a little bowed when I got him but I wouldn't call it severe. So, now about two days later, I just got back from the vet.

So, I've been researching this EXTENSIVELY. I've read this: Knuckling Over and HOD - Developmental Orthopedic Disease | GREATDANELADY.COM and probably every post on here about it. From what I've read, puppies do usually get better. I believe the breeder had switched his food a couple times because of the knuckling over but the last one she had him on was Bil Jac Adult. I now have him on Iams Sensitive Naturals (23% protein, 13% fat, .85% calcium). I also have him on fish oil, 1000mg vitamin C and 1500mg Glucosamine/MSM per day. I have seen no improvement so far. In the morning, he looks slightly better but by the afternoon, he's standing on just the outsides of his front feet. He doesn't look like he is in pain and he bounces around just fine.

The vet thinks that he has a severe orthopedic condition that will most likely need surgery. He took x-rays, which I will try to post. He said the good news is, the bones are straight. One of the bones appears to be growing faster than the other and if he doesn't get surgery soon, it will become worse and he will essentially be lame. This is the only vet I have seen so far. The vet said he had seen this before but puppies don't usually outgrow it, which made me a little skeptical. I'm not sure whether to believe this vet or not. On one hand, he is looking at my puppy specifically, in person and he is trained in this topic. On the other hand, he seems to be telling me exactly the opposite of what I have read online.

I was wondering if anyone has any advice. I was hoping the vet would put wraps of splints on his legs but he said that wouldn't help. Will it? Can someone explain how I should wrap them? I'm emailing the breeder the pictures right after I post this. I also thought I would email the x-rays to another vet or a specialist to see what they say.

I really hope his legs will straighten out. I love his personality and he's so beautiful. I 'm confident that the breeder will take him back if I decide that is best but I think he is just wonderful and I worry about what will happen to him if I give him back :( Any advice at all would be appreciated.

P.S. I know his ears have pockets. ;) He's already been posted back up.
 

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#2 ·
It can happen on puppies especially when feeding high protein or if u r feeding puppy chow. U need to switch his food to less than 24 percent protein. When puppies grow too fast it is possible and usually corrects. Having said that I am making no guarantees. Talk to your breeder and give it time n see a vet that has experience with large breed puppies that correct after knuckling over.
 
#4 ·
I have had 2 that knuckled over as pups. The first some years ago was corrected almost immediately by following the advice on the Great Dane Lady's website, which I see you have referenced. The second was a bit more recent and also corrected immediately by switching to a raw diet.

Do note that both of my puppy's diets were changed at the first sign so that they did not get anywhere near as severe as your pup seems to be.

I would try following the Great Dane Lady's recommendations to the letter. Generally you will start to see the condition correct itself within a few days.

Good luck and hugs to your pup.
 
#5 ·
Actually, the protein thing has been debunked--the CA : Ph ratio in the food you use is much more important.

I question, from your pics, if that is true "knuckling over," or if it's rather a condition known as Angular Limb Deformity.

If the latter, I'd be extremely concerned. I think one of those linked threads above, documents some of Tyson's story, in which he battled that diagnosis, thru many surgeries and interventions, ending up in rescue despite his owner's best loving efforts to meet his needs.


Do you have more pics of your pup from the front?
 
#6 · (Edited)
Have you read this sticky? http://www.dobermantalk.com/puppy-corner/67333-why-overgrowing-your-large-breed-puppy-dangerous.html

I wouldn't feed the adult bil jack unless its approved for all life stages...and really not if it is either.

How much are you feeding and how many meals a day? Overfeeding promotes fast growth. You want slow controlled growth.

It's definitely not good that he still has this problem at his age. I would get a referral to a veterinary university near you or an orthopedic vet.

Oh, and I agree that doesn't really look like knuckling over. Need better frontal pictures.
 
#7 ·
Thanks for all the replies! Bil Jac is what the breeder was feeding him, not what I have him on. I'm about to switch him to Precise Holistic, which is what the Great Dane Lady suggests. I had to order it because I couldn't find it around here. He is currently on Iams Sensitive Naturals, which is 23% protein but I actually emailed the Great Dane Lady and she said the calcium is too low in that one. I'm also giving him vitamin C and glucosamine because I read that could help.

It's really hard to get front pictures of him but hopefully these are helpful. If he doesn't have weight on his feet, his legs are straight. The x-rays also showed that the bones are straight but one is longer than the other. I'm thinking about trying to wrap them just for today and seeing if it makes any difference.

The breeder responded saying that she has seen this many times in her 50 years of breeding and she has never seen them not grow out of it. She is confident that his legs will straighten out. If it turns out to be something he can't outgrow, I'm sure she will do something to help.

I'll look into angular limb deformity and see if I think that could be a possibility. Compared to the photos of other puppies I've seen, I wouldn't call Monte's condition "severe" but the vet thought it was really bad.
 

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#8 · (Edited)
Also, he's 17 weeks old and only 32 lbs. He's certainly not underweight but he's pretty bony. I don't think it's an overfeeding or overgrowing problem. I've been giving him three cups of food per day.

Edited to add: I just looked up angular limb deformities. The vet mentioned that the growth plates in his legs are still open. Would this make it less likely to be an angular limb deformity? Also, in the thread about Tyson, his legs looks like they are always curved, even lying down. Monte's legs are straight when he's lying down.
 
#9 ·
Did your breeder take him to a vet? I would hope so and what did that vet say? First thing I'd do is contact breeder and let them know what this vet said.
 
#11 ·
Yes, she took him to the vet several times. I'm not sure exactly what her vet said but they don't seem worried about it. I told her what my vet said and she was very reassuring, saying that she is confident he will outgrow it. She said keep the protein low and suggested fish oil.

I also wanted to clarify the xrays. One of the bones is longer than the other and my vet, for some reason, doesn't think the other will catch up. Both bones are straight. Also, this is the first time I've ever been to this vet so I don't know how knowledgeable he really is on this.
 
#10 ·
Thanks for the pictures.

Doesn't look like knuckling over to me.

I'd be very concerned--not trying to freak you, but I'm not sure "wait and see" stacks the deck for the best outcome for this pup, if some type of intervention is needed.

If he looks straight when non-weight-bearing, does your vet feel there is a soft tissue/connective tissue disorder?

I mean, obviously, there is also an issue with uneven bone growth, but his joints look unstable in those last pics.
 
#12 ·
:-( that's disappointing. My vet seemed to think the bones are the issue. I'm not sure why he thought the shorter bone wouldn't grow to meet the longer one. He mentioned a surgery to cut one of the bones and make it shorter or a surgery to staple one of the bones.
 
#15 ·
I really appreciate the advice. The vet he saw says he is an orthopedic specialist but said he doesn't do things like this. I'm not sure what his specialty actually is. I emailed photos and the xrays to a specialist that the first vet recommended and asked for their advice but haven't heard back yet. I'll call them on Monday too. I also have some vet friends that I would like to ask and I was going to try to find a contact at the vet school a couple hours away to ask.
 
#17 ·
Here he is lying down. Also, one more standing up. I think it's at least promising that the bones themselves are straight. I don't know whether to be reassured that the breeder isn't worried about this or angry :(

The Great Dane Lady just emailed back and said he is "bowing out," not "knuckling over." I'm not sure what that means for him though. It sounds worse. :( :(





 
#19 ·
I don't think they get any supplements or anything like that. She did say he was getting fish oil to try to help correct the bowing. From what I understand, knuckling over happens when one bone grows faster than the other, is that right? However, Monte has one bone longer than the other but he is bowing out. I think it's kind of weird too. He seems to have a mix of conditions and symptoms.

A month ago the breeder also said his female littermate was bowing/knuckling over too. I never got an update on her so I'm not sure how she is doing.

Right now, my plan is to get him on this food that the Great Dane Lady recommends, wait a couple days to see if anything changes and then contact the breeder again. I'm even more concerned because he has been bowing out like this for over a month. I'll post a couple pictures of him while the breeder still had him.

These are about a month ago (12 weeks old):



 
#21 ·
I would ask for a copy of vet records so you can forward them to the specialist also.
 
#22 ·
How long has he been being supplemented with fish oil?

Has he also been on Vitamin E?

If not, there is evidence that the body becomes depleted of Vitamin E (with varying consequences) when processing fish oil.
 
#23 ·
To me this looks like a mild case of carpal flexural deformity causing him to roll over on his toes and not the knuckling over that you are thinking of. If you do a quick search you will find several good threads here on this.

However I agree with the others and you should be consulting an orthopedic specialist or two and go off of their recomendations. The longer you use the wait and see approach the harder it will be to correct it to some degree.

Good luck! I hope everything works out for you.
 
#25 ·
This is why I don't breed.

I was going to stay out of this but, sorry, I can't.

Why would a breeder send a puppy like that into someone's home before the problem is resolved? What a heartbreaker. Thank you for all you are doing for this poor guy but it is a situation you should never have been placed in. As other have said, get multiple opinions and don't get stampeded into surgery before you are sure it's the right thing to do.

What should breeders do with these. Not this. Twenty years ago I was shipped a dobie puppy that was vwd positive with a roaring case of cystitis. We were at the vets every week for months. Died before the age of four with a hemorrhage in the lung. Yes, guys, she came from a highly reputable show breeder you all would know.

Back when I was breeding, 35-40 years ago I had a pup with cystitis. Kept her until is was resolved at six months before she was placed in a great home housebroken and with basic obedience training. Another pup once had a problem the vet couldn't seem to figure out and I had two homes that wanted her so much they would take her with the problem. Fortunately I held her back and the problem got worse and was finally determined to be a serious congenital defect and she had to be euthanized. Responsible breeding is tough and sometimes heartbreaking but you have no right to dump it on a loving family.
 
#27 ·
I was going to stay out of this but, sorry, I can't.

Why would a breeder send a puppy like that into someone's home before the problem is resolved? What a heartbreaker. Thank you for all you are doing for this poor guy but it is a situation you should never have been placed in. As other have said, get multiple opinions and don't get stampeded into surgery before you are sure it's the right thing to do.

What should breeders do with these. Not this. Twenty years ago I was shipped a dobie puppy that was vwd positive with a roaring case of cystitis. We were at the vets every week for months. Died before the age of four with a hemorrhage in the lung. Yes, guys, she came from a highly reputable show breeder you all would know.

Back when I was breeding, 35-40 years ago I had a pup with cystitis. Kept her until is was resolved at six months before she was placed in a great home housebroken and with basic obedience training. Another pup once had a problem the vet couldn't seem to figure out and I had two homes that wanted her so much they would take her with the problem. Fortunately I held her back and the problem got worse and was finally determined to be a serious congenital defect and she had to be euthanized. Responsible breeding is tough and sometimes heartbreaking but you have no right to dump it on a loving family.

The breeder said his legs looked "95% better." I told her I was fine with them not being completely better as long she she was 100% sure they would straighten out. She was and still is so she let me have him. I'm not sure if 1. She is right and he will be fine, 2. She was lying about him being better/getting better or 3. She genuinely thinks he will get better but he will not.

I'm wondering if this is the same breeder that you are talking about. I feel really bad for this dog. On one hand, I paid a lot of money for him and I want a healthy dog but on the other hand, in less than a week, I've bonded with him and I don't want him to go back. I worry about what will happen to him if I give him back. Judging from a lot of his behaviors I can tell that he hasn't had as much socialization as he should have, has been kept in a kennel way too much and has had almost no training. At four months, I was expecting him to at least know "sit."
 
#29 ·
The breeder said his legs looked "95% better." I told her I was fine with them not being completely better as long she she was 100% sure they would straighten out. She was and still is so she let me have him. I'm not sure if 1. She is right and he will be fine, 2. She was lying about him being better/getting better or 3. She genuinely thinks he will get better but he will not.

I'm wondering if this is the same breeder that you are talking about. I feel really bad for this dog. On one hand, I paid a lot of money for him and I want a healthy dog but on the other hand, in less than a week, I've bonded with him and I don't want him to go back. I worry about what will happen to him if I give him back. Judging from a lot of his behaviors I can tell that he hasn't had as much socialization as he should have, has been kept in a kennel way too much and has had almost no training. At four months, I was expecting him to at least know "sit."(Laureen#26)

I doubt it's the same breeder. They don't breed much anymore. Anyway your bonded with him now and he's your boy and he looks like a beautiful sweet boy. Sounds like your doing everything you can for him so let's hope it all turns out ok with him.
 
#30 ·
Since you love the puppy, if you don't trust the breeder this is already a bad sign. Like I said normally, the box will correct fast if you take him off the high protein food. You need something less than 24% and no supplements. When they grow so fast this can happen. I don't know your puppy but this is not that rare, nor common, but it can happen most often with large fast growing puppies. Then, again he could have something more serious. Have you changed his food and tried this?
 
#31 · (Edited)
The food he is on now is 23% protein, as was the one the breeder was feeding him. I don't think he was ever on high protein food.

Edited to add: You say no supplements. Not even vitamin C? I've been giving him vitamin C and glucosamine but I'll try a couple days without and see if there's a difference.
 
#32 ·
good read Growth Disorders in Young German Shepherds | German Shepherd Dog Club of Victoria

"Osteochondrosis and joint dysplasias have been studied in many species, in particular in pigs. Where the animals were selected for increasingly heavy end weight and rapidity of weight gain, the higher the incidence of symmetrical lesions in certain sites in joints and many growth plates. Experimentally in pigs, the incidence and severity of OCD was directly related to rapid growth ie. rate of weight gain.

When the diet was restricted and grown at a low growth rate, the incidence of OCD was dramatically reduced (almost to zero).

All dog studies in this area have shown to support the concept that the high caloric intake rather than the specific intake of protein, minerals or vitamins influences the frequency and severity of osteochondrosis and HD. The causes of ED while not as thoroughly studied, show similarities and probably similar outcomes.

The common conclusion from studies in dog is that excessive calcium, phosphorus and vitamin D along with a high energy diet and rapid weight gain causing rapid growth, are almost an ideal recipe for pushing the parameters for normal structural growth and joint soundness well beyond their normal limits, resulting in joint disorders. The higher incidence of osteochondrosis in males versus females is probably a direct reflection of this as males are often ¼ heavier than females at any one time, despite being born at a comparative weight.

Equally, this is not to say that genetics does not pay an important part in the body’s structural soundness, however excessive rates of weight gain and thus rapid growth result in pushing the body’s parameters beyond which they can cope, particularly if they were not the most structurally stable to start with. That is, excessive rate of growth and weight will not create severe HD or ED in itself; however, it can make an existing problem considerably worse."
 
#33 ·
The common conclusion from studies in dog is that excessive calcium, phosphorus and vitamin D along with a high energy diet and rapid weight gain causing rapid growth, are almost an ideal recipe for pushing the parameters for normal structural growth and joint soundness well beyond their normal limits, resulting in joint disorders. The higher incidence of osteochondrosis in males versus females is probably a direct reflection of this as males are often ¼ heavier than females at any one time, despite being born at a comparative weight.
Thanks for that. He's 17 weeks and 32 lbs. I actually just increased his food today because he was looking way skinny. I don't think he's eating too much and the calcium/phosphorus of his food is below 1.3%. I think the fish oil has vitamin D though so I will stop giving him that and see if that helps. Some folks on a Labrador Retriever forum were suggesting the fish oil for similar problems.

The food that the Great Dane Lady swears by is supposed to arrive tomorrow and I'm hoping that will make a difference! I emailed the xrays to several specialists but I'm still waiting to hear back from them.
 
#36 ·
She's not been back on the forum in 6 years.
 
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