Hair losing along spine?

LindaH · Jan 9, 2014

All sounds good foosquare, except I don't see any vitamin E. Do you give extra E? Fish oil depletes the body of vitamin E so you need to supplement. Dosage is 200 iu vitamin E per 300 mgs combined EPA/DHA in the fish oil. That's usually the amount of EPA/DHA in 1000 mg fish oil pills here.

OceanS · Jan 9, 2014

dobebug said:
Here's a couple of suggestions about bathing. I stopped using even cook water--I use cold water and that effectively stopped all dandruff and my dogs never have dry skin.

Don't rub the hair--the nice thing about short coated, single coated dogs like Dobes is that they clean up very easily. Instead of rubbing--wet the dog down thoroughly and either dilute the shampoo in a quart of water or take a very wet wash cloth and pour the shampoo on that--work the shampoo into the coat starting at the head going back the direction the hair lays. Use only your finger tips to lightly massage the shampoo into the coat. Then start rinsing. Rinse for at least as long as it took to go through the wet down and shampoo. When you think all the shampoo is out of the coat take a cup or two of plain white vinegar and dilute it in a gallon of water--use this as the last rinse water. And all of this rinse water including the vinegar rinse should be cold water too.

DON'T dry your dog with a hair dryer--even those made for dogs will guarantee drying the skin and creating the perfect environment for dandruff. Do a wipe down in the direction the hair grows, front to back and let the dog shake. Even in the dead of winter in my house which is never warmer than 65 degrees F (can't find the calculator that has a F to C automatic function at the moment) the dog is completely dry in 15 minutes.

I'm guessing that the dandruff is much more likely related to the hair drier than the hair loss. And I suppose it's possible that it might be an allergy to the mangos but I think it's more likely that you've got a dog who has one of the not so common hair thinning conditions that exist. Check with the vet to be sure there isn't something obvious going on but stuff like seasonal alopecia show up--the dog loses coat and eventually grows the hair back--only to have it occur the following year in the same season.

Just suggestions. It really didn't look at all like demodex to me. But who knows, the vet may tell you otherwise.

Thanks for the suggestion on the dog wash procedure. I'll make sure to dilute the shampoo next time. So in your opinion there is no need to apply conditioner? And by mixing water with vinegar as the last rinse, will it give her a "vinegarette-smell"? Lol if you know what I mean

And the reason I dry her hair after bath is that I thought by leaving their fur in wet condition it's going to leave a wet dog smell after dried and the moisture might not be good for their skin. But do correct me if I'm wrong

I just found a few more insect-bite bump on her body today, the bump itself isn't too red, more purple-ish grey color bump with hair loss on the bump itself. Not sure if it's related to the hair thinning. Just now I compared the smell between the thinning patch and other area of her body, they actually smelled different... Like it's not a very bad smell, but it does smell somewhat fishy to me. So I guess it might be some kind of skin infection that cause the smell.
P.s what do you mean by hair thinning condition? Is that a permanent condition?

OceanS · Jan 9, 2014

LindaH said:
All sounds good foosquare, except I don't see any vitamin E. Do you give extra E? Fish oil depletes the body of vitamin E so you need to supplement. Dosage is 200 iu vitamin E per 300 mgs combined EPA/DHA in the fish oil. That's usually the amount of EPA/DHA in 1000 mg fish oil pills here.

No I do not add any extra Vit E, do you just use the Vit E capsule for human? Because I've never fed her any human supplement, all the fish oil, omega blend oil and digestive aid that I use on Mika were made for pets.

OceanS · Jan 9, 2014

Edit: sorry the fishy smell was actually due to the antibiotic cream I put on her for the bump, it's the cream vet prescribed before for the same type of bumps found before. Because there is one small bump on the thinning hair section, so I put the cream on. There isn't any smell on other area of thin hair.

LindaH · Jan 9, 2014

Yes, just use the human vitamin E. About all you can get here anymore is 400 iu softgels. However since vitamin E is sotted in the fat you can give the fish oil twice a day and the E one. You can even just give the vitamin E twice a week as long as you give the 200 iu per 300 mgs EPA/DHA.

I give fish oil twice a day, IF I don't give sardines, and just give vitamin E after evening meal.

Sardines have the omega 3s, so I don't give fish oil when giving sardines. You also don't have to give vitamin E with sardines.

The vinegar smell goes away once they're dry. I let Parker drip dry, too. Moisture is okay for a dogs skin like it is for people and they shouldn't have any odor if you washed get well...gently. I don't USSR conditioner, but dobebug might.

That bump sounds like it might be staph. The vinegar will help with it, too, even if it's an insect bite. Parker has food and environmental allergies and in the summer I spray him down with a half white vinegar half water mix when he comes in from outside, wipe the vinegar mix kind of up and down the sides and rest of his body with a couple of paper towels once or twice a day, depending on how bad the pollen is. I don't dry him with the towels as they're soaked before it's over. You have to let the vinegar dry on the skin four it to be antibacterial. Never rub your girl against the grain of her hair. Go with the grain or kind of sideways as you're moving backwards. This prevents me from having to bath him twice a week for constant allergy breakouts of staph and yeast.

Allergies will also cause yeast infections in BOTH ears and between the toes. The feet have to be treated differently to cure them. Parkers allergies were obvious by seven months tho. One early symptom is recurrent puppy staph infections. It's possible for them to develop at a later age, also.

The diet you're feeding is a good one to help prevent food allergies from developing if she were inclined to have them.

OceanS · Jan 9, 2014

LindaH said:
Yes, just use the human vitamin E. About all you can get here anymore is 400 iu softgels. However since vitamin E is sotted in the fat you can give the fish oil twice a day and the E one. You can even just give the vitamin E twice a week as long as you give the 200 iu per 300 mgs EPA/DHA.

I give fish oil twice a day, IF I don't give sardines, and just give vitamin E after evening meal.

Sardines have the omega 3s, so I don't give fish oil when giving sardines. You also don't have to give vitamin E with sardines.

The vinegar smell goes away once they're dry. I let Parker drip dry, too. Moisture is okay for a dogs skin like it is for people and they shouldn't have any odor if you washed get well...gently. I don't USSR conditioner, but dobebug might.

That bump sounds like it might be staph. The vinegar will help with it, too, even if it's an insect bite. Parker has food and environmental allergies and in the summer I spray him down with a half white vinegar half water mix when he comes in from outside, wipe the vinegar mix kind of up and down the sides and rest of his body with a couple of paper towels once or twice a day, depending on how bad the pollen is. I don't dry him with the towels as they're soaked before it's over. You have to let the vinegar dry on the skin four it to be antibacterial. Never rub your girl against the grain of her hair. Go with the grain or kind of sideways as you're moving backwards. This prevents me from having to bath him twice a week for constant allergy breakouts of staph and yeast.

Allergies will also cause yeast infections in BOTH ears and between the toes. The feet have to be treated differently to cure them. Parkers allergies were obvious by seven months tho. One early symptom is recurrent puppy staph infections. It's possible for them to develop at a later age, also.

The diet you're feeding is a good one to help prevent food allergies from developing if she were inclined to have them.

Thanks, will go get some Vit E. I give her 1-2 piece of sardine everyday, that's why I only give her fish oil once per day with dinner. So you are saying after the white vinegar wash, I'll have to spray white vinegar water on her once or twice a week? Because what I use to get mosquitoes and insects away during summer is the Repel X, I'll spray them on her once a day before going outside, but even with it she still tend to get bitten by insects a lot, as she loves to roll on the grass, sun bathing etc. so if I use the white vinegar water spray twice a week, I can stop using the repel x?

She does tend to chew on her front two paws quite a lot before, vet say its allergy, but she didn't give any medication as she say she will only give if the paws are red or inflamed. And she has fungal infection in both ears at the moment due to weather and her floppy ears. Not sure if all these can contribute to the thinning of her hair at the back. At least I will know if it's mange or not by tomorrow!

P.s just another Q, does the vinegar water wash away her frontline plus that I put on for flea prevention? Or I don't have to use frontline if I use the vinegar water?

LindaH · Jan 9, 2014

You use the vinegar rinse after a bath to remove the last little bit of soap that might remain and to make the skin inhospitable to bacteria, fungus and yeast. I think it helps to repel insects, but I've never really used it for that so don't know much about that aspect. I'll look on Dr Karen Becker's and see if I can find that.

I use the daily mix in the summers to wipe off the pollens and to make his skin resistant to staph, fungal and yeast infections that allergies cause. If your girl doesn't have food or environmental allergies, you don't need to do this step.

If your dog is licking her feet, they're irritated and there's no need for that. Plus, if she keeps between the toes wet, she will end up with foot yeast or bacterial problem eventually,I would think.

Thus is a good bit of advice: Irritated Pet Paws | How to Relieve Your Pet?s Irritated Paws

Now I'm off to look for the repellent information. I think she uses herbals, tho. Darkev is a good one to all about that, too.

Three articles popped up in my search about vinegar: http://search.mercola.com/search/pages/results.aspx?k=vinegar for insect repellent in dog

Couldn't find anything about using herbals in her articles.

OceanS · Jan 10, 2014

Just got back from vet. She did a skin scraping on two locations on the back and didn't found any mites. So she say it's probably allergy to the grass and pollen due to the weather as she loves to belly roll on the grass everyday, but could also be due to her dry skin. She gave me this oatmeal conditioner that can be applied directly without the need to wash it off, and ask me to put that on her twice a week to keep her skin from drying. And also this cream to put on the thinned hair section. She say if the hair continues to fall, she will need to send the scraping to the lab and see if can culture anything.

LindaH · Jan 10, 2014

Did she say anything about the purple bump...like what it looked like? Staph or no?

OceanS · Jan 10, 2014

LindaH said:
Did she say anything about the purple bump...like what it looked like? Staph or no?

That was the same bump she had before since she was a puppy, she gets it often, especially in the warm seasons, she said it might be insect bite or puppy staph, either can be treated with the antibiotic cream she prescribed.

dobebug · Jan 10, 2014

Hi OceanS,

I think LindaH answered most of your questions. But the very dilute vinegar rinse just removes any possible shampoo residue. It won't remove the Frontline Plus as long as you are applying it a few days after any recent bath (I believe you said you were applying I a week after a bath so it won't do a thing to the Frontline Plus.

The only dog I use a conditioner on is my fawn dog. The hair shaft is constructed a little differently in a fawn or blue--the shaft has (under a microscope you can see this quite plainly)plates that overlap--in all of my black dogs and the only red dog I've ever owned those plate are tight and the hair is very dense--the fawn dogs shaft is not as dense and the plates are looser. I use a leave in conditioner on him. I thin the conditioner down (it can be left in or applied and rinsed off) to about 1 part of conditioner to 20 or 25 parts of water. I bathe him wipe him down with a towel and spray him with the conditioner. Let him shake and spray him again. Then I wipe him down again and let him shake.

The moisture left in his coat will not harm the skin--it's not like coated dogs or dogs with heavy undercoats who may end up with nasty hot spots from wet coats that never get dried properly.

Vinegar water wouldn't diddly for flea protection. Keep using Frontline or Advantage. I've lived in some of the flea capital of the western world and have never found anything herbal that actually controlled fleas.

And for flying insects--I happen to be in an area where it's not so much of a problem for the Dobes but when I had my Aussie, for reasons that I never understood, biting flies (who never bothered the Dobes) would torment him and bite his ears if I didn't use one of the horse flying insect protectors. I tried various herbal mixtures for his ears and never saw that they controlled the miserable flies so I resorted to using something I knew worked.

I also give both fish oil and Vitamin E. I use stuff sold for humans as the fish oil for pets is much more expensive. I buy both at Costco and the Dobes get 1,000 mg capsules of fish oil with each meal and one Vitamin E with their dinner. One on my vets was the one who sent me to Costco for the fish oil and Vitamin E. When buying fish oil for the human market just remember to NOT buy the kind that has a coating on it so that it doesn't dissolve in the stomach (and give you fishy burps)--with the shorter GI tract on a dog you want the less expensive uncoated capsules. The coated ones will usually just go through the dog not stopping to be processed.

Hope all of this helps. And if the vet thinks she might be loosing hair because of her rolling in grass etc--I know that for dogs owned by friend just wiping the down as they come in from outside, with a dampened terry cloth towel will remove dust, pollen etc and if anything is going on that is acting as an allergine it will help control it.

If her skin is that dry adding the Vitamin E and cutting out the hair drying should help that too.

OceanS · Jan 10, 2014

Thanks dobebug and Lindah, and everyone else for all the useful replies. I'll def try the suggestions and hopefully her coat will grow back soon!

OceanS · Jan 13, 2014

Update: I've starting to see more hair thinning patch on her, and it's mostly on the side of her body, close to her shoulder and front armpits. I've seen her scratch that area with her back legs, so I think the part she want to scratch should be the big patch on her back, but she can't reach it. So she scratched the side instead and caused the side to lose hair too. She's also losing hair on her back leg knees(where she bend when she sit), but just a small patch.

I'm really starting to think it might be pollen or grass allergy, as the grass in our backyard is pretty dry due to the summer heat, sun and lack of rain, and thus quite pointy, and she loves to lay on it. We hardly water the backyard as she plays there a lot, and if the grass is wet she won't step a foot on it. But since 3 days ago I've started to water the backyard when she's sleeping and green grass has started to grow again.
Hopefully this will all go back to normal once autumn come.

P.s I asked my vet about the vinegar wash, she say she never heard of it but guess I could try. I'm not sure if I should give her a bath now with the vinegar, or shall I wait till the hair grow back? Currently I'm just putting on the leave-on oatmeal + aloe Vera conditioner on her twice a week as there's quite a lot of dandruff, especially after we applied the medical cream on her patches. And the conditioner seem to work to reduce her dandruff a lot.

TANGOKID · Jan 14, 2014

OceanS said:
Update: I've starting to see more hair thinning patch on her, and it's mostly on the side of her body, close to her shoulder and front armpits. I've seen her scratch that area with her back legs, so I think the part she want to scratch should be the big patch on her back, but she can't reach it. So she scratched the side instead and caused the side to lose hair too. She's also losing hair on her back leg knees(where she bend when she sit), but just a small patch.

I'm really starting to think it might be pollen or grass allergy, as the grass in our backyard is pretty dry due to the summer heat, sun and lack of rain, and thus quite pointy, and she loves to lay on it. We hardly water the backyard as she plays there a lot, and if the grass is wet she won't step a foot on it. But since 3 days ago I've started to water the backyard when she's sleeping and green grass has started to grow again.
Hopefully this will all go back to normal once autumn come.

P.s I asked my vet about the vinegar wash, she say she never heard of it but guess I could try. I'm not sure if I should give her a bath now with the vinegar, or shall I wait till the hair grow back? Currently I'm just putting on the leave-on oatmeal + aloe Vera conditioner on her twice a week as there's quite a lot of dandruff, especially after we applied the medical cream on her patches. And the conditioner seem to work to reduce her dandruff a lot.

Have you tried feeding her coconut oil. From what I've read, it's really good for all of the symptoms that your pup is going through. I just started today with my pup. He has some thinning of the coat along his butt. A lady at the pet store who is also a breeder, told me to try fish oil. After reading about coconut oil, I chose that option.

OceanS · Jan 14, 2014

I'm not sure if I can add coconut oil when she's currently on fish oil?

LindaH · Jan 14, 2014

OceanS said:
I'm not sure if I can add coconut oil when she's currently on fish oil?

Yes, you can give both as the same time. Coconut oil has different fats than the omega 3s contained in the fish oil. Coconut oil is very good for dogs and people alike.

It's not a vinegar bath, it's a vinegar rinse after the bath or, as I use it, a half water half white vinegar spray and rubdown to remove the pollen after your dog comes in from outside and to make the skin inhospitable to fungus, yeast and bacteria. After the first heavy spray and rub, then I just do a quick rubdown everytime he comes back inside from outside during heavy pollen times. I do that and I don't have to bath him for itchy skin. The vinegar smell goes away after it dries and it deodorizes your dog.

Do not get the vinegar rinse or spray in the eyes or genital areas.

OceanS · Jan 14, 2014

LindaH said:
Yes, you can give both as the same time. Coconut oil has different fats than the omega 3s contained in the fish oil. Coconut oil is very good for dogs and people alike.

It's not a vinegar bath, it's a vinegar rinse after the bath or, as I use it, a half water half white vinegar spray and rubdown to remove the pollen after your dog comes in from outside and to make the skin inhospitable to fungus, yeast and bacteria. After the first heavy spray and rub, then I just do a quick rubdown everytime he comes back inside from outside during heavy pollen times. I do that and I don't have to bath him for itchy skin. The vinegar smell goes away after it dries and it deodorizes your dog.

Do not get the vinegar rinse or spray in the eyes or genital areas.

Ok thanks. I'm going to give her a bath tomorrow, then rinse with vinegar water after the bath, because I had a feeling that I didn't completely wash off the shampoo and conditioners last time based on your guys suggestion on how to bath a dog, and this might aswell contribute to her hair losing. And after the bath I'll start using the vinegar water spray until next bath time.

But firstly I'll need to go get some white vinegar today lol!

P.s do your guys have any idea on how much coconut oil to give? I've already got Vit E and started giving it to her.

TANGOKID · Jan 15, 2014

OceanS said:
Ok thanks. I'm going to give her a bath tomorrow, then rinse with vinegar water after the bath, because I had a feeling that I didn't completely wash off the shampoo and conditioners last time based on your guys suggestion on how to bath a dog, and this might aswell contribute to her hair losing. And after the bath I'll start using the vinegar water spray until next bath time.

But firstly I'll need to go get some white vinegar today lol!

P.s do your guys have any idea on how much coconut oil to give? I've already got Vit E and started giving it to her.

1 teaspoon for every 10 pounds once a day. U can put it on the food or just give it straight out of jar. My dobe will eat it off of the spoon. My pit wont touch it. Go on youtube and type in "coconut oil for pets" theres a lady vet that breaks it down. Good luck.

LindaH · Jan 15, 2014

Here's an excellent Dog Aware article explaining about fat supplements. This site is loaded with all kinds of excellent information about dog health and other dog "stuff".

DogAware.com Articles: Oil Supplements

I buy white vinegar by the gallon. It's miracle stuff for Parker! I've not had to take him to the vet for skin issues since I started using it like I recommended (washing off pollens). Before I started using it I was having to bath Parker twice a week with medicated shampoo. Last summer never had to give him a bath, but I also quit making him spend a couple hours outside a day...want to make that cleat, too. I can tell when he starts to get itchy as he gives body shakes and half hearted stomach scratches with his back leg. Gotta watch under those front armpits, too, as they are a hotspot for yeast from allergies.

It has also cleared up a couple of actual hotspots and various little breakouts. If he gets a bump or bare spot,I spray it with the half vinegar half water a couple of times a day for four or five days and they go away. Best stuff ever and it's dirt cheap!!!

OceanS · Jan 15, 2014

LindaH said:
Here's an excellent Dog Aware article explaining about fat supplements. This site is loaded with all kinds of excellent information about dog health and other dog "stuff".

DogAware.com Articles: Oil Supplements

I buy white vinegar by the gallon. It's miracle stuff for Parker! I've not had to take him to the vet for skin issues since I started using it like I recommended (washing off pollens). Before I started using it I was having to bath Parker twice a week with medicated shampoo. Last summer never had to give him a bath, but I also quit making him spend a couple hours outside a day...want to make that cleat, too. I can tell when he starts to get itchy as he gives body shakes and half hearted stomach scratches with his back leg. Gotta watch under those front armpits, too, as they are a hotspot for yeast from allergies.

It has also cleared up a couple of actual hotspots and various little breakouts. If he gets a bump or bare spot,I spray it with the half vinegar half water a couple of times a day for four or five days and they go away. Best stuff ever and it's dirt cheap!!!

Thanks! Mika is also scratching her front armpit with her back legs recently too. And it has caused the skin around the front arm to start falling and I'm starting to see thin patches of hair around there too. I'll start the vinegar tomorrow after giving her a bath.
I remember you stated to mix a cup of white vinegar with a gallon of water, do you mean by the actual 'cup' measurement we use when baking food etc? Cos one cup of white vinegar sounds a lot and it's only mixed with one gallon of water, won't that be too acidic for the skin? Or shall I just do the vinegar spray for now instead of a bath since she's still losing hair.

Hair losing along spine?

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