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post #101 of 232 (permalink) Old 02-14-2013, 09:12 PM
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Lol I stewarded a few weekends ago and got to talking with a judge and some exhibitors and from the sounds of it the only class I need is for me about how to intpret the rather redundant signs haha, i'm so used to the rigours of obed and rally seems so foreign and ummm loose

I know it's not a strict, any other moves that aren't in obed? I've seen some sit/down and walk arounds or etc..

The judge also threw a loop for our area (though allowable) and used a broad jump as one of the jumps and I've always had trouble getting my dogs to jump those, tips?
Being an agility competitor first and foremost I was like "hell yeah I can do signs, easy!"... Wrong! We lose 10 points for doing a station wrong which means you immediately lose any chance of qualifying, so when you do the "spiral twice" just once... Well you get the idea! Elsie should have an RN by now were it not for my ineptitude!

NZKC stuff is a little bit different to AKC, but we have left finishes in rally and only right (around behind you) finishes in obedience, walk backwards with dog in heel in rally, some of the stuff in the lowest level of rally aren't until higher levels in OB (change of pace, left about turn), down walk around your dog etc. is not in OB... So there are quite a few more in rally than low level OB.

What sort of trouble? Was your dog walking over top of the broad jump?


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post #102 of 232 (permalink) Old 02-14-2013, 09:14 PM Thread Starter
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Lol I stewarded a few weekends ago and got to talking with a judge and some exhibitors and from the sounds of it the only class I need is for me about how to intpret the rather redundant signs haha, i'm so used to the rigours of obed and rally seems so foreign and ummm loose

I know it's not a strict, any other moves that aren't in obed? I've seen some sit/down and walk arounds or etc..

The judge also threw a loop for our area (though allowable) and used a broad jump as one of the jumps and I've always had trouble getting my dogs to jump those, tips?
Do you own a broad jump? Start with just one (basically just a tiny jump), then add a second one very close to it, then add a third, etc then begin to slightly spread them apart. Just take it apart piece by piece. Not much difference than a normal jump if you teach it that way.
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post #103 of 232 (permalink) Old 02-14-2013, 09:21 PM
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Being an agility competitor first and foremost I was like "hell yeah I can do signs, easy!"... Wrong! We lose 10 points for doing a station wrong which means you immediately lose any chance of qualifying, so when you do the "spiral twice" just once... Well you get the idea! Elsie should have an RN by now were it not for my ineptitude!

haha I had that theory too until I started reading them and was like...wait what? I mean they just are not written simple at all!

NZKC stuff is a little bit different to AKC, but we have left finishes in rally and only right (around behind you) finishes in obedience, walk backwards with dog in heel in rally, some of the stuff in the lowest level of rally aren't until higher levels in OB (change of pace, left about turn), down walk around your dog etc. is not in OB... So there are quite a few more in rally than low level OB.

What sort of trouble? Was your dog walking over top of the broad jump?
the past one did and my mom's collies always do, Mabel just refuses it, I've tried from one normal to a few in a row on their side so they were taller but it's like a reining pony coming to a halt. I did some desensitization work but haven't pushed it yet to try again...didn't think I needed to for rally until that! but I'd rather be prepared than not, though its minor points since a friends dog qualified on his first time seeing and failing that exercise.

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Do you own a broad jump? Start with just one (basically just a tiny jump), then add a second one very close to it, then add a third, etc then begin to slightly spread them apart. Just take it apart piece by piece. Not much difference than a normal jump if you teach it that way.
Yup we have the full official wooden broad, board, and bar jumps.

I've tried it the normal way but unfortunately she's not normal. See above what I said to disco lol.

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post #104 of 232 (permalink) Old 02-14-2013, 09:23 PM
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I still welcome the broad jump advice since if/when we do competition obed. we'll need it but I'm thinking i'll start a rally thread then we can discuss signs and etc.. without making it confusing.

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post #105 of 232 (permalink) Old 02-14-2013, 09:24 PM
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Like Asmit said, you can just train it like any other hurdle... If your dog is having issues because she jumped on it and got a scare for example I would have a go shaping it, turn it into a game instead of something scary. Getting her to go to a target over the jump could be helpful too... For agility we put posts up on each of the 4 corners of the broad jump to stop dogs cutting the corners, not sure if you lose marks in rally for corner cutting though....


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post #106 of 232 (permalink) Old 02-14-2013, 09:31 PM
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Like Asmit said, you can just train it like any other hurdle... If your dog is having issues because she jumped on it and got a scare for example I would have a go shaping it, turn it into a game instead of something scary. Getting her to go to a target over the jump could be helpful too... For agility we put posts up on each of the 4 corners of the broad jump to stop dogs cutting the corners, not sure if you lose marks in rally for corner cutting though....
corner cutting only matters in Open obedience classes.

She's never had any sort of problem or scene occur, she's just so damn suspicious sometimes, it's much the same as how she's terrified of the a-frame and dogwalk and teeter (we'll be doing jww if anything) she did them of her own free will all the time in the yards at work until about a year old then bam terrified and over a year of work later, nothing! The tire took 3 months and the chute I won't even bother with lol.

I'll see what I can do with some target work, maybe see if she'll jump it chasing her flirt pole, if nothing else we'll just loose the points if the judge happens to pull it out. Sigh...this dog lol, she's certainly making me a far better trainer! lot's to fix and work with/outside of the box too.

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post #107 of 232 (permalink) Old 02-17-2013, 08:36 PM Thread Starter
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Ok! Had a successful weekend with the obedience match. I should've tried Zeus in Open or GO but I forgot his dumbbell. Anyways, I have video! It cut off on Drama's recall, but she did it very well. I have never called her out of a sit due to schutzhund so she froze when I told her here. Had to give two commands. That's ok though since I don't think I'll ever title her in akc stuff. She worked in a new enclosed environment, was surrounded by tons of dogs, didn't care about the judge exam, and didn't bark at anyone or try to kill any fluffy dogs. I was THRILLED!

Zeus's positioning is crap. But I really don't care. He's super happy in the ring and that's all that matters. I am not looking to OTCH, just to do something that he enjoys. His schutzhund trial videos show the drastic difference in his enthusiasm. I'm not going to title him in schutzhund if he hates it. But he loves doing obedience in a smaller area like that with breaks to keep him up. There are no trials here for awhile, but there is another run-thru march 3. I'll take Zeus in Open then, and probably do novice with drama. She started out pokey, but got better as we went along.

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post #108 of 232 (permalink) Old 02-17-2013, 09:27 PM
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They look pretty good. One thing I noticed with Zeus, though, with the SFE, was that you need to make sure that, once he is standing, you need to be in heel position before you leave (I had a judge point that out to me after she took off points for handler error). Also, you went a bit too far away. You only need to go about 3 steps to make it 6 feet.


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They look pretty good. One thing I noticed with Zeus, though, with the SFE, was that you need to make sure that, once he is standing, you need to be in heel position before you leave (I had a judge point that out to me after she took off points for handler error). Also, you went a bit too far away. You only need to go about 3 steps to make it 6 feet.
Thanks! Didn't know that! I kept asking that guy questions constantly. Haha it was obvious I had no idea what I was supposed to be doing.

He learned the stand for exam the night before, SO I was so happy that he was standing, I was not even thinking. I just 'left my dog'. I also didn't know the leashes were supposed to be 6'. In IPO it can be 4 or 6.... Whoops! Hopefully I'll be more prepared for a real trial.
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post #110 of 232 (permalink) Old 02-17-2013, 09:51 PM
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Yeah, there are a lot of little kinda "nit-picky" things that can cost you points in AKC. As for the leash length, it just needs to be long enough for there to be slack during heeling unless specified. Beginner Novice and Pre-Novice (soon to be renamed Sub-Novice) both require a 6 ft leash.


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Yeah, there are a lot of little kinda "nit-picky" things that can cost you points in AKC. As for the leash length, it just needs to be long enough for there to be slack during heeling unless specified. Beginner Novice and Pre-Novice (soon to be renamed Sub-Novice) both require a 6 ft leash.
Yup it was the beginner novice that he told me about the leash length, because the SFE I guess requires you be 6' away?

I'm going to work on cleaning up Zeus's heeling somewhat, but as long as we get enough points to pass CD, CDX, and UD, I'm fine with that. He has the potential to be demanded more of and still maintain drive.

I saw a ton of dogs who were very exact and very close to perfect but were just completely dull and miserable. We were counting the number of dogs whose tails doubled in height as they exited the ring, and that personally 'ircked' me.
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Ohh and Argo started his retrieve. This was either my 7th or 8th session working with him on it. Have been using mainly Michael Ellis's method, with a decent part of my trainer's method as well. The day before this, I was still forcing the dumbbell into his mouth, get him out the next day and he has put it together. I really love working with this boy.

Retrieve - YouTube

Now I get to work on all of the fun parts of the retrieve! He is a dog who is a natural 'chewer'. He's got a chewy grip on everything. Anything that in his mouth is either being hectically torn at or nonstop chewed on. So I am most happy with his calm hold in front position. You can see when he gets it he is in drive and thinks about getting playful with it, then when he sits down he remembers the 'holding' exercises and he calms down.

I will hopefully be able to update this in a couple weeks with a much better retrieve!
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post #113 of 232 (permalink) Old 02-18-2013, 08:30 AM
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Zeus is adorable! Very happy! He looks huge, or are you short? LOL! Lots of crowding, bumping and forging but not NQ'able. He looked thrilled to be in the ring. If you have the chance, do a run through at a match with no food at all after a run through w/ food or talking.

Have you read the rules for AKC, Asmit? I'd get the rulebook or download it and read the sections for Novice, Open, etc. Things such as you cannot touch the dogs collar at all for Open and Utility will nail you down the road when you just don't know. His get up on the recall would be a NQ when you had to resit him and leave again. Anticipating does not bother me when they are learning, but it is an NQ in the ring if they come before you call, jump or retrieve before you tell them. Also your body language- be very aware of no hand or finger wiggling, body turning for finishes. Little things that can get you at higher levels.

I'd carry the leash in your left hand to make a cleaner picture with a small amt of slack in it. I'd also try walking a tad bit faster in your "normal" pace with such a big striding dog. If you were me, I'd invest in 2-3 lessons with an AKC obedience person who can give you real pointers for this venue as you do run throughs for each level. You just need the polish but have a very happy, cute dog!
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post #114 of 232 (permalink) Old 02-18-2013, 09:10 AM Thread Starter
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Zeus is adorable! Very happy! He looks huge, or are you short? LOL! Lots of crowding, bumping and forging but not NQ'able. He looked thrilled to be in the ring. If you have the chance, do a run through at a match with no food at all after a run through w/ food or talking.

Have you read the rules for AKC, Asmit? I'd get the rulebook or download it and read the sections for Novice, Open, etc. Things such as you cannot touch the dogs collar at all for Open and Utility will nail you down the road when you just don't know. His get up on the recall would be a NQ when you had to resit him and leave again. Anticipating does not bother me when they are learning, but it is an NQ in the ring if they come before you call, jump or retrieve before you tell them. Also your body language- be very aware of no hand or finger wiggling, body turning for finishes. Little things that can get you at higher levels.

I'd carry the leash in your left hand to make a cleaner picture with a small amt of slack in it. I'd also try walking a tad bit faster in your "normal" pace with such a big striding dog. If you were me, I'd invest in 2-3 lessons with an AKC obedience person who can give you real pointers for this venue as you do run throughs for each level. You just need the polish but have a very happy, cute dog!
I have read the rules but I'm sure ill continue to consult them more! It's a lot to be able to remember in one read through haha

I had to re sit him because I only gave him a sit command because in schutzhund you can not say stay. He thought he was supposed to be heelig still. The second time I said stay and he listened. I assumed he would just stay sitting because that's how he learned it, but I guess I will actually use the stay command during a real competition.

He is 31" and I AM short but he really is quite large as well.

Like I said, I'm gonna clean up his crowding and forging but he can not do eye contact due to his size/build without forging and I don't care enough to change everything about his heeling (ie focal point etc) because he's 6yo and he starts to shut down easily. I realize I'm leaving myself little room for other errors if his heeling is sloppy but I'm only doing akc obedience for the sake of him being able to do something he enjoys. He really likes it, and he had so much fun yesterday.

I've only worked him once or twice a month this winter which is not enough to improve his positioning while heeling but if hes happy then I'm happy.

I didn't think that collar holding was allowed lol ill try not to do that next time. I'm gonna do open march 3 and ill be sure to get another video. The "judge" also gave me quite a few tips about how different judges might not do some things, allow some things, etc. at that match I won't touch his collar and try to remember the tips! Oh and ill do it without food like you suggested.

That was his first time ever in an akc ring so I wanted him to think it was super good and had the possibility of getting treats!
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post #115 of 232 (permalink) Old 02-18-2013, 10:58 AM
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Have fun! If they allow it, I usually sign up for 2 run throughs and do one entire routine, and then the 2nd one either do 2-3 things we needed to "tweak" OR do one with food and/or talking, and one like in a competition.

You can gently guide by the collar between the exercises for Novice, but not permitted for upper levels. I clap my hands or I tap the end of the dumbbell to get attention and talk in happy voice to keep dog's focus on me. With Rexy though, too happy meant he nipped my heels during off lead heeling so know your dog!

Fyi- Cheers trains like the happiest dog in the world, smiling and jumping. In competition she sometimes looks as if she's about to be hit with a stick! It's all about the pressure of the judge hovering so close to her at Utility level. She has a security bubble around herself that she does not like disturbed, be it dog or human.
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post #116 of 232 (permalink) Old 02-18-2013, 11:19 AM
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Free shaping the broad does work, I did it with 3 dogs. Sometimes with some dogs it is easier to throw a toy or motivate the dog with food. I use a cone at the end of the jump. I teach the dog to go out and around the cone and then back to me. I used to use a touch pad, but all my previous work with touch pads involve staying on the touch pad so my dog would get stuck out there rather than return to front. With the cone he goes out and doesn't cut the corner and knows he can come back right away rather than waiting for a release.

In regards to reading the rules:

You can read the rules a hundred times, however sometimes they don't sink in until you get dinged points for infractions. Then it sinks in and you never do it again! Lol

Secondly there are unwritten rules in obedience. For example in the long sit/down the rules state you command your dog into position give a command or signal to stay then upon judges direction leave your dog. I have always trained my dogs that after I leave, when I turn around I cross my arms. My arms stay crossed until we are told to return. I was told that now handlers are being failed it they do not leave the dog in the position they mean to stand in (ie I have to cross my arms before I leave my dog and walk both ways as such).

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I didn't realize two run thrus were allowed until that day! Next time if he messes something up ill definitely do that and just repeat the messed up exercises and/or do the food/non food thing.
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post #118 of 232 (permalink) Old 02-18-2013, 01:10 PM
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I always do 2 run throughs at matches. I was once told that you can expect to get a small percentage in a trial of what you get in training. They have to be able to work under pressure to be successful. That's why I try to match in a lot of different places. It also helps to get there early enough to let your dog sniff around, get comforatable and be able to warm up.

I train the broad jump the same way that Sonterra mentioned, with the cone or throwing a toy or a piece of food. I mix it up because it's less pressure on her shoulders with that jump and quick turn to front.

I have to keep it fun with Sabrina or she'll get her airplane ears on. So I've really worked on ring choreography with her, and keeping her connected between exercises with spinning or nose touches. It's been challenging to find the right mix though. I have to keep her happy but not overly happy. She'll do a jump flip finish and I like that. If I get all serious and formal in the ring she worries that I'm not happy and doesn't do well.

Another thing I do to keep her happy, with her ears up on the recall or long sits and downs in training is I randomly walk half way or all the way then turn around to look at her, and treat her, kind of like a game so that she never knows when or if I'm coming back to play the game.

I also had a lot of different types of people to do stand for exams and did opposition reflex with the leash when I tell her to stay (go 6 feet out and pull and release on the leash a little bit). I did this because she went through a phase when a judge, who is someone they've never seen before, would examine her she would take a few steps towards me, and in a trial that's a NQ.

Another thing that a lot of people don't realize is that unless it's a sanctioned match, you can decide what you want to work on in the ring during your alloted time. If you want to practice getting in the ring with attention ten times, stand for exams or anything else that you want to tweak, you can. Use matches to your advantage.

I really liked Zeus' attention in your video!

A key element in training is proofing your dog.

Last edited by txsaphire; 02-18-2013 at 01:16 PM. Reason: more info
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post #119 of 232 (permalink) Old 02-18-2013, 02:12 PM
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I'm thinking that if you really speed up your walking, he will straighten out quite a bit.
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post #120 of 232 (permalink) Old 02-18-2013, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathy43 View Post
I'm thinking that if you really speed up your walking, he will straighten out quite a bit.
Yes! Especially for Zeus, you need to move faster. Dobermans look better when they're moving at a nice pace. I was very guilty of moving too slow for a long time.
She works much better when I march faster.

You can also try heeling against a wall to straighten him out or use a dowel rod to hold against his side until he learns position.
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post #121 of 232 (permalink) Old 02-18-2013, 04:13 PM Thread Starter
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I'm thinking that if you really speed up your walking, he will straighten out quite a bit.
Yeah the small ring and his big stride made it worse than when on the schutzhund field. Ill try that next time.
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post #122 of 232 (permalink) Old 02-18-2013, 04:49 PM
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I love Zeus! He looks so happy, and the sneezing was funny. Nice to see dogs enjoying what they're doing, thanks for posting the vids.
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post #123 of 232 (permalink) Old 02-18-2013, 04:56 PM
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Great videos. He has nice focus and looks happy to be there. Also, like ellenm stated, get the AKC rulebook. Lots to learn. I knew you couldn't touch or lead the dog in Open and sort of knew about the collar thing. Well, I must of touched Baron's collar without even knowing I did it on our 3rd leg and the judge nailed me for 5 points. We qualified but it was a stupid mistake on my part.
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post #124 of 232 (permalink) Old 02-18-2013, 06:55 PM Thread Starter
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We have done most of our training by a wall. It doesn't help haha I've used barriers as well, which don't do anything after I remove the barrier. Tonight for example I used a long stick/dowel thing to keep next to his butt. Because it keeps him in position, he goes flat. His conformation doesn't allow him to look at me without forging or to turn his head inwards while heeling while keeping his butt straight. It is honestly painful to him, and I'm not going to force him to do that if it is not comfortable or if he doesn't enjoy it. I'm only doing this because he likes it, so if he isn't happy heeling correctly, then I'm going to let it be. I'll spend my time making sure his retrieves, finishes, and front positions are as close to perfect as possible to that we can make up for the forging/turning/crowding.

Ohh and before I have to go through this again of people telling me I am making it up, I am not exaggerating by saying it is painful. He has severe muscle wasting, and limited mobility in his neck. He can not even play with a ball or toy without the muscles on his head quivering. This is why I did not continue with schutzhund, he could not physically hold the heavy dumbbell. He also can not even jump up on me or stand on his back legs. He tries to when I get home sometimes but he can't stand for more than a split second. I have had x-rays done, and the vet said he shows the beginning stages of wobbler's.
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post #125 of 232 (permalink) Old 02-18-2013, 09:22 PM
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I can actually see he is neurologic when he walks but I wasn't going to mention it until you did.

You won't find an AKC ring meant for a 31" doberman to stride out, so don't even consider it Believe me, I Know.

Like ellen said, i would tke a quick lesson or have someone familiar with the sport walk you through things piece by piece - as opposed to schutzhund where you can have little pieces wrong and still pass overall, akc obedience is exactly the opposite - you can do everything right and one tiny mistake will absolutely fail you.


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