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post #76 of 230 (permalink) Old 10-05-2012, 12:23 AM Thread Starter
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Ya, for track number 7 she really seems to be in the game! You can do any IPO stuff with a mutt. I don't know much about AKC style tracking so maybe don't listen to my advice, lol. I could screw you up.


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post #77 of 230 (permalink) Old 10-08-2012, 10:02 AM
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Okay, articles. In AKC, the dog can either indicate them or pick them up. I think in IPO, they have to indicate them, but don't pick them up? So it'd probably be easier to teach IPO style indication only, since it is acceptable for AKC style tracking, also.

How do you train article indication? I've seen a couple of different ways, but would like some input from a real person, and not just a book (okay, they're written by a real person, but you know what I mean).

Also, since AKC requires a harness for tracking, and I won't be doing bitework with her (so she won't be confused about why she's wearing a harness), can anyone recommend an IPO approved style tracking harness?


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post #78 of 230 (permalink) Old 10-08-2012, 07:08 PM
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Ive been sick for a while and couldn't go to the club for about a month, so when I decided it was time to go back this past weekend I wasn't sure what to expect...especially with tracking considering I hadn't done any...ok maybe like 4 tracks total between the two dogs.

Turns out...they were the BEST they've ever been! (tracking wise) Hans did a really nice job, great corners, great speed (what I would describe as slow but confident), and did very smooth article indications without help. One thing that I have changed with him is I stopped putting food on the articles, he indicates faster.

The Diego man was SUPER awesome yesterday...he did it! He tracked, he ate the food, he was dedicated, he did two corners, and even learned how to indicate an article! Tracking has been a struggle with this dog...#1 he took a while to get over being car sick so when I would have to track right after a long car ride he didn't want anything to do with food, #2 he is pretty immature and gets uncomfortable in new surroundings, so tracking where other dogs have been, in a strange place (even though it's where he was born), with lots of people, is something that he still has to get used to. I ended up going back to basics with him and only tracking scent pads to reinforce "such" with find the food in the stomped grass. So yesterday I did a scent pad at the beginning of the track (small with 3 legs). He went right to it, took a couple seconds on the scent pad and then off on the track he went and his head didn't come up until he reached the article at the end.

The only way I can explain this phenomenon is they must've been starving because I was fully expecting the worst!

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post #79 of 230 (permalink) Old 10-09-2012, 12:45 AM
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So I took some videos of the dogs today. Not the best quality, because I was by myself, but here goes.

This is Leo, doing her 5th and 6th tracks ever.
Leo tracking 10-8-12 1st track - YouTube
Leo tracking 10-8-12 2nd track - YouTube

This is Ilka, doing longer tracks (umm, 9 & 10?), with turns.
Ilka tracking 10-8-12 1st track - YouTube
Ilka tracking 10-8-12 2nd track - YouTube

The wind just couldn't make up its mind which way to blow. It would be going one way, then, two steps down the track, it would be going another direction.

On the brighter side, Leo didn't get carsick.

ETA: You might want to turn the volume down when watching Ilka's vids. Leo was screaming her usual banshee scream.


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post #80 of 230 (permalink) Old 10-09-2012, 01:59 AM Thread Starter
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Okay, articles. In AKC, the dog can either indicate them or pick them up. I think in IPO, they have to indicate them, but don't pick them up? So it'd probably be easier to teach IPO style indication only, since it is acceptable for AKC style tracking, also.

How do you train article indication? I've seen a couple of different ways, but would like some input from a real person, and not just a book (okay, they're written by a real person, but you know what I mean).

Also, since AKC requires a harness for tracking, and I won't be doing bitework with her (so she won't be confused about why she's wearing a harness), can anyone recommend an IPO approved style tracking harness?
The only harness that is allowed in SchH is a Boetcher harness. It doesn't really look like a typical harness though.

Boetcher Harness

Does AKC require a buckle harness? If they aren't specific, you could try a Boetcher and see how it works.

I start articles away from the track. In my house actually is usually where it happens. I put the article on the floor and tell the dog to down and push their head to touch it. Then I give a cue word and treat. Chin touching the article is the first step. As soon as the chin is there, treat. Once the dog is putting the head on the article from a down position, I start trying to get the dog to go from a stand to a down on the article. As soon as the chin touches the article, treat and cue word.

I will try to find a video.
This is as close as I could find for now. Not exactly how I do it (and I have no idea who this is), but close.

Article indication training session 4 - YouTube

I make them touch the chin to the article before the reward and I don't have them retreive it.

Retrieving the article is allowed, but I have never seen it done.


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post #81 of 230 (permalink) Old 10-09-2012, 09:51 AM
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Hmm, I went through the rules, and for FH1, this is the only reference I could find to equipment. "The dog handler may choose to track with or without a tracking line. The tracking line may show slack as long as it does not drop out of the handler’s hand."

For FH2, "The dog may track free or on a 10 meter
line. The 10 meter line may be placed over the back, on the side or between the front and/or
back legs. It can be placed on the collar, not the live ring, or on the designated clasp of the
harness (permitted are Harness or Böttger harness without additional straps)."

For FH, "The dog may track free or on a 10 meter
line. The 10 meter line may be placed over the back, on the side or between the front and/or back legs. It
can be placed on the collar, not the live ring, or on the designated clasp of the harness (permitted are
Harness or Böttger harness without additional straps)"

I know I can't use the Bottger/Boetcher harness for AKC tracking, because the line can't run under the dog, but must attach to the harness on the dog's back.

Guess I better get some articles, and start training them, pretty soon. I'll need to mix up AKC and IPO arrticles, so they will indicate anything they come accross.


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post #82 of 230 (permalink) Old 10-26-2012, 09:46 PM
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Went tracking today and am so pleased with how Elsie did! Her first 1 hour old track and she thought it was SO easy!

The track was in the forest again (REALLY need to get out and track some fields soon!!), under tree cover through pine needles. Warm sunny day with light winds. First leg was about 400 feet with food drops every 3-5 steps, right turn, 35 feet on the flat then up a steep incline with broken ground, then down the other side and slightly to the left back over pine needles for another 20 feet to her toy hidden behind a bush. Left the track for an hour to age while we walked the dogs, then drove back to where we put it and got her out.

As soon as she saw the harness come out her nose was on the ground and she was desperately trying to drag me to the forest so we could start! She tracked the way I walked into the forest, then got to the start peg and was confused for a moment, had a big shake (she always has a big shake before getting down to business in tracking, usually about 2 metres in, this time before the start which was interesting!) and BAM her head was down and she was charging, overshot the first corner by a little bit (instead of the usual couple of metres) and quickly corrected herself and was right on course. At the end I think she figured out where her toy was hidden as she lifted her head once we were about to descend the hill and wanted to go directly to the toy. Will keep toy in pocket next time and put an article down I think.

Sooo time to introduce articles now I think!

Have also just found out that there is a working trials seminar on in January, me and Elsie are going! It's 3 days of tracking and working trial obedience up in the north island, am SO excited! It's for all levels of dogs & handlers, fully catered and surrounded by lush native forest. Going to be a FUN weekend!!


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post #83 of 230 (permalink) Old 10-26-2012, 10:48 PM
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Okay, I have a question. When do you start phasing out the "food in every step" routine? Ilka's longest track (#15?) was 90 to 100 steps, with two turns, and I baited every step (oh, my aching back). She seems to be getting the idea of tracking.

Leo has done maybe eight or nine tracks, baited every step, and is getting a bit more confident. Well, she's at least walking while on a track, instead of crawling.


~~~The Current Hellhounds~~~
Lily Dale- A Melody Unchained ETD PKD-T PKD-N ADP-L5/CH ADP-L1(Pr)/L2(Pr) GPS-NST OD-WD2
CA Speed Queen Leontine Von Washateria ETD D-CRO-Preliminary PKD-T PKD-N S-ADP-L5/CH S-ADP-L1(Pr)/L2(Pr) GPS-NST OD-WD2
~~~Requiescat In Pace~~~
Ilka Of Pear Orchard Cemetery BN RE CA CGC TKP ETD CRO-1 D-CRO-Preliminary NCO-1 PKD-T PKD-N S-ADP-L4 ~2009-2017~
Lucky Rat Dog CGC ~2000-2014~
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post #84 of 230 (permalink) Old 10-26-2012, 11:03 PM
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Okay, I have a question. When do you start phasing out the "food in every step" routine? Ilka's longest track (#15?) was 90 to 100 steps, with two turns, and I baited every step (oh, my aching back) She seems to be getting the idea of tracking.

Leo has done maybe eight or nine tracks, baited every step, and is getting a bit more confident. Well, she's at least walking while on a track, instead of crawling.
I stopped using food really early, after 10 or so tracks and was without food for quite awhile, but after talking to more experienced people they suggested leaving food down to keep her head down... I probably did 2 tracks with food in every step, quickly swapped to every 3-5 steps as I am lazy, and Elsie skips food drops anyway.

If something doesn't work out you can always go back to having more food down. I am spreading the food out early because I need to be building up to doing tracks that are anywhere from 2000-4000 feet long and I am SO not putting food in every step for a track of that length LOL... If you are doing IPO tracking I think it would probably be better to keep food down as I believe IPO tracking is quite specific about having slow, deliberate foot step tracking (forgive me if I am totally wrong!).


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post #85 of 230 (permalink) Old 10-26-2012, 11:14 PM
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Some articles by working trials trainer Rod Roberts in the UK. Rod is a really friendly guy, have emailed him a little bit and he is quite helpful

Motivation

Tracking for Beginners


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post #86 of 230 (permalink) Old 10-27-2012, 07:28 AM
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Thanks for the links; I'll read them later on. That seminar sounds awesome.
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post #87 of 230 (permalink) Old 10-28-2012, 11:00 AM
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Okay, I have a question. When do you start phasing out the "food in every step" routine?
The purpose of the food is to teach the dog to keep their heads down. Until you build a habit strong enough, keep the food on the track. Take the opportunity while the track is fully baited to show the dog all kinds of terrain, hills, turns, serpentines, etc. With food in each footstep you can help your dog thru difficult transitions and build their confidence.

A harness is allowed on sch tracks, as well as the botchinger (or however you spell it). Most just prefer not to use it.

"For the Tracking phase the dog may wear a harness in addition to the choke collar or a vest"

"The line may be attached to the dead ring of the collar or on the harness ring (permitted are harness and Böttger-harnesses, without additional straps)." from the IPO rules

A sch dog can retrieve the articles, however most choose not to because the restarts are incredibly important, and it is far simpler for the dog and handler to restart with the dog already on the track, calm and focused, rather than exuberant over a retrieve.

"When called the handler (HF) is to report to the judge (LR) at the basic position and advised whether his dog picks up or indicates."

The rules also say this, which is fairly contradictory:

"As soon as the dog finds an article, he has to pick it up or indicate it without any influence from the handler. He can stand, sit or return to the handler when picking up the article. Moving forward or lying down is considered faulty. The indication can be done lying down, sitting or standing (alternating is permitted).Once the dog has indicated or picked up the article, the handler then drops the line and goes to his dog." from the IPO rules.

Ooohhh ok, I think what it means is if the dog picks up the article it can sit or stand or return, but if it picks it up and lies down or picks it up and moves forward, that is faulty.

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post #88 of 230 (permalink) Old 10-28-2012, 11:15 AM
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Some articles by working trials trainer Rod Roberts in the UK. Rod is a really friendly guy, have emailed him a little bit and he is quite helpful

Motivation

Tracking for Beginners
OMG I love that Rod Roberts guy!!

"With the dog sitting calmly, get the tracklayer to show the dog the food, even let it lick it a bit. At this point someone usually says “No chance, my dog would just gobble it up.” Well, pretend you’re a dog trainer, and don’t let it"

or

"My goal, when I’m training a new dog, is to get its level of concentration and stamina up to being able to track a 400 pace leg, down wind, without lifting its head, losing attitude, or in any way having a rest. At this point, someone always says, “But I live in Derbyshire (or one of the other stock counties) we don’t have fields that big.” OK, that’s it then, there’s always room for another person in obedience. "

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post #89 of 230 (permalink) Old 10-28-2012, 11:41 AM
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So I took some videos of the dogs today. Not the best quality, because I was by myself, but here goes.

This is Leo, doing her 5th and 6th tracks ever.
Leo tracking 10-8-12 1st track - YouTube
Leo tracking 10-8-12 2nd track - YouTube

This is Ilka, doing longer tracks (umm, 9 & 10?), with turns.
Ilka tracking 10-8-12 1st track - YouTube
Ilka tracking 10-8-12 2nd track - YouTube

The wind just couldn't make up its mind which way to blow. It would be going one way, then, two steps down the track, it would be going another direction.

On the brighter side, Leo didn't get carsick.

ETA: You might want to turn the volume down when watching Ilka's vids. Leo was screaming her usual banshee scream.
There is a huge difference in how you handle Ilka and Leo. You are very calm and relaxed with Ilka, the line is loose, and you let her work, you give her the opportunity to work thru going off track, and coming back into it. You are patient behind her.

In contrast, your leash with Leo is continually tight, you micro manage without letting the dog try to figure it out herself. Every time you pointed out the track physically to the dog, it broke her concentration and she got more worried about you than the track, and then it took more time to get her back on task. Did you do scent pads with your gsd?

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post #90 of 230 (permalink) Old 10-28-2012, 01:09 PM
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Sonterra, thanks for pointing that out. I've looked at the vids, and never really noticed the difference. I'll have to pay more attention to that. I think I was "helping" Leo more than Ilka because she seems to be much more unsure about everything in general.

I googled "scent pad", and from what I understand about the definition, I haven't done that with either dog.


~~~The Current Hellhounds~~~
Lily Dale- A Melody Unchained ETD PKD-T PKD-N ADP-L5/CH ADP-L1(Pr)/L2(Pr) GPS-NST OD-WD2
CA Speed Queen Leontine Von Washateria ETD D-CRO-Preliminary PKD-T PKD-N S-ADP-L5/CH S-ADP-L1(Pr)/L2(Pr) GPS-NST OD-WD2
~~~Requiescat In Pace~~~
Ilka Of Pear Orchard Cemetery BN RE CA CGC TKP ETD CRO-1 D-CRO-Preliminary NCO-1 PKD-T PKD-N S-ADP-L4 ~2009-2017~
Lucky Rat Dog CGC ~2000-2014~
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post #91 of 230 (permalink) Old 10-28-2012, 01:43 PM
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Sonterra, thanks for pointing that out. I've looked at the vids, and never really noticed the difference. I'll have to pay more attention to that. I think I was "helping" Leo more than Ilka because she seems to be much more unsure about everything in general.

I googled "scent pad", and from what I understand about the definition, I haven't done that with either dog.
A scent pad is a 2-3 foot stomped down square with bits of food in it. The reason I mention scent pads is because the dog learns to put their nose down themselves, and how and where to find reward. Your gsd seemed a little confused on the two tracks I watched. It helps the dog to understand and begin to associate nose down sniffing with reward. It takes the handlers body language out of the picture and lets the dog figure it out. The handlers job is simple to limit the range of the dog away from the scent pad, not to direct it to food, or manipulate it.

Here are a few examples:

Solo - first day, scent pad - YouTube

Allan Ross Dog Training - YouTube

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post #92 of 230 (permalink) Old 10-28-2012, 01:53 PM
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Thanks, I think I'll try that, especially with Leo.


~~~The Current Hellhounds~~~
Lily Dale- A Melody Unchained ETD PKD-T PKD-N ADP-L5/CH ADP-L1(Pr)/L2(Pr) GPS-NST OD-WD2
CA Speed Queen Leontine Von Washateria ETD D-CRO-Preliminary PKD-T PKD-N S-ADP-L5/CH S-ADP-L1(Pr)/L2(Pr) GPS-NST OD-WD2
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post #93 of 230 (permalink) Old 10-30-2012, 09:05 PM
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Magic did her first scent pad today at 4 weeks and 2 days old, so cute! I love how much they use their noses at this age, she did have trouble picking the bits of food up though... May have to rethink what we use.


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post #94 of 230 (permalink) Old 10-30-2012, 09:30 PM
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Magic did her first scent pad today at 4 weeks and 2 days old, so cute! I love how much they use their noses at this age, she did have trouble picking the bits of food up though... May have to rethink what we use.
We use extremely thin pieces of hot dogs, then after they get the hang of it you can use kibble (less likely to see it.)
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post #95 of 230 (permalink) Old 10-30-2012, 09:36 PM
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We use extremely thin pieces of hot dogs, then after they get the hang of it you can use kibble (less likely to see it.)
Thanks, we have not given her any treats like that yet (using some blobs of mince which she smushed into the grass LOL) but will suggest it to her breeder she should be starting on kibble soon, so that will make things a little bit easier I think.


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post #96 of 230 (permalink) Old 10-30-2012, 09:45 PM
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Do you have the food that comes in rolls? The main brands here are RedBarn and Natural Balance, but there are a few others, also. Maybe use that, cut into little pieces? It's meant to be fed as a regular diet, so it might be better than hotdogs or the like.


~~~The Current Hellhounds~~~
Lily Dale- A Melody Unchained ETD PKD-T PKD-N ADP-L5/CH ADP-L1(Pr)/L2(Pr) GPS-NST OD-WD2
CA Speed Queen Leontine Von Washateria ETD D-CRO-Preliminary PKD-T PKD-N S-ADP-L5/CH S-ADP-L1(Pr)/L2(Pr) GPS-NST OD-WD2
~~~Requiescat In Pace~~~
Ilka Of Pear Orchard Cemetery BN RE CA CGC TKP ETD CRO-1 D-CRO-Preliminary NCO-1 PKD-T PKD-N S-ADP-L4 ~2009-2017~
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post #97 of 230 (permalink) Old 10-30-2012, 09:47 PM
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Yeah we do actually, there is some in the fridge here... She should be able to chew well enough to have some of that now (feels like she could chew my fingers off if I let her!).


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post #98 of 230 (permalink) Old 10-31-2012, 09:24 AM
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I skipped scent pads with Zeus but my trainer insisted I go back and do them then continue doing them every time I track. I thought Zeus was tracking fine but now that he does/has done scent pads, his ability to troubleshoot during the tracks is greatly greatly improved! He is also much better with the spots without food now.

I originally tried high value food like hot dogs but it was way to easy for him and he would go nuts and be overwhelmed from the strong smell. The kibble makes him work much harder, calmer, and more carefully.

Red barn is amazing for obedience treats though!
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post #99 of 230 (permalink) Old 10-31-2012, 10:18 AM
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I'm doing scent pads with Leo, and working on keeping calm and still while she searches. Sonterra pointed out I was "micro-managing" her on a track, which I hadn't noticed. That's what I like about this place, all the experienced people willing to help us neophytes.

Ilka seems to have pretty much caught on to the idea, but maybe I should start doing scent pads with her too.

You should hear the dog who's left behind when I take the other one off to work. They know that they are missing out on treats.

If I can remember, I'll take the camera with me today when the girls and I go out, and try to get some video.


~~~The Current Hellhounds~~~
Lily Dale- A Melody Unchained ETD PKD-T PKD-N ADP-L5/CH ADP-L1(Pr)/L2(Pr) GPS-NST OD-WD2
CA Speed Queen Leontine Von Washateria ETD D-CRO-Preliminary PKD-T PKD-N S-ADP-L5/CH S-ADP-L1(Pr)/L2(Pr) GPS-NST OD-WD2
~~~Requiescat In Pace~~~
Ilka Of Pear Orchard Cemetery BN RE CA CGC TKP ETD CRO-1 D-CRO-Preliminary NCO-1 PKD-T PKD-N S-ADP-L4 ~2009-2017~
Lucky Rat Dog CGC ~2000-2014~
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post #100 of 230 (permalink) Old 10-31-2012, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
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I'm doing scent pads with Leo, and working on keeping calm and still while she searches. Sonterra pointed out I was "micro-managing" her on a track, which I hadn't noticed. That's what I like about this place, all the experienced people willing to help us neophytes.

Ilka seems to have pretty much caught on to the idea, but maybe I should start doing scent pads with her too.

You should hear the dog who's left behind when I take the other one off to work. They know that they are missing out on treats.

If I can remember, I'll take the camera with me today when the girls and I go out, and try to get some video.
My trainer recommends you always do scent pads, even after you think the dog is ready to skip it. She says its like 'warming up' or stretching before working out. Of course there are a million and one tracking methods out there, but she has FH dogs and I do not have anything so I shut up and listen

I'm not sure if the other experienced people on this thread do that (erin?), but I'm sure they will comment.

Haha Zeus starts barking at me if he sees me laying a track. All of the dogs really groove on the whole "sniff for food" idea.

Hope to see the video!
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