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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-29-2009, 02:51 PM Thread Starter
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Weave Practice

Once again I've gotten Flirt and I stuck at about 2" apart in our weave training without guides. She is finally "weaving" her body a tiny bit. I did finally give up and put guides on. I should have done it sooner. I"m gonna be kicking myself in the butt if we get our weaves in a week or two and I've been too lazy to put guides on. Oh and let's pray she doesn't chew them off by the time I get home from work today. That was my other problem.

Here she is pre guides

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McqqW7h9vxQ

I've also finally entered my older Vizsla in a trial. Now why can't this dog weave at a trial??? I do practice running with her like at a trial, this is just the easiest way to videotape. What I get at the trial is the barking, no weaves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBUSMveRuCc

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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-29-2009, 03:04 PM
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She looks good and fast to me!! What happens if their straight w/ no guides? She just won't do it?


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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-29-2009, 03:13 PM Thread Starter
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She looks good and fast to me!! What happens if their straight w/ no guides? She just won't do it?
She just runs into the poles and slams them or skips 4-5 poles. I don't think her body/brain knows it is supposed to "weave" and not slam through them. So when they get close, she gets frustrated. She already broke one pole off at the base last year slamming through them. I have thought if this doesn't work, I should use Susan Garrett's 2x2 method and shape her and teach her to actually weave.

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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-29-2009, 08:54 PM
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Yep, go back to 2x2, then put wires on and close poles gradually, starting at the front. Make the first three tough and the last 9 easier, then make the first 4 tough, etc. That's what we had to do. GUIDES on always! Once W was weaving all of them straight, the guides came off one at a time starting from one from the last and moving forward. Now he rocks 'em.

Carpe weave'm baby!

Also, that's one of the reasons that when starting weaves, the poles should always always be moving in closer. Once that muscle memory gets in there, it is ridiculous to try and reteach!
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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-29-2009, 09:25 PM
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ha ha the slam - thats how rah broke three sets of weave poles

we're on the FOURTH set now... pvc just doesn't hold up to him.

(lesson learned - dont leave your weaves out in the yard).

my guys are purely shaped, and speed is coming with both!

you guys will get there gabby looks good. tell her to stop being silly and WEAVE!


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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-29-2009, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Adara View Post
She just runs into the poles and slams them or skips 4-5 poles. I don't think her body/brain knows it is supposed to "weave" and not slam through them. So when they get close, she gets frustrated. She already broke one pole off at the base last year slamming through them. I have thought if this doesn't work, I should use Susan Garrett's 2x2 method and shape her and teach her to actually weave.
Oh my.. she sounds like a wild lady! I think everyone has given you great advice!


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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-30-2009, 11:07 AM Thread Starter
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Yep, go back to 2x2, then put wires on and close poles gradually, starting at the front. Make the first three tough and the last 9 easier, then make the first 4 tough, etc. That's what we had to do. GUIDES on always! Once W was weaving all of them straight, the guides came off one at a time starting from one from the last and moving forward. Now he rocks 'em.

Carpe weave'm baby!

Also, that's one of the reasons that when starting weaves, the poles should always always be moving in closer. Once that muscle memory gets in there, it is ridiculous to try and reteach!
Hmm...I am doing it backwards. The first 3 are easier, the last 9 are tougher. Once I get her in, she's fine. She doesn't slow down and collect to get in. Well, she gets the entry and then flies out.

We used Nancy Gyes' method and kept moving poles in but I thought I could do it without guides at all. I didn't want to wean off one more thing, but it bit me in the butt. And I confess each time I got this far, I gave up. So one good thing is that she doesn't have a lot of muscle memory doing them at 2" apart.

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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-30-2009, 11:09 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by doberkim View Post
ha ha the slam - thats how rah broke three sets of weave poles

we're on the FOURTH set now... pvc just doesn't hold up to him.

(lesson learned - dont leave your weaves out in the yard).

my guys are purely shaped, and speed is coming with both!

you guys will get there gabby looks good. tell her to stop being silly and WEAVE!

Good ol' "bull in a china shop" is what I call Flirt when she weaves.

I'm thinking of shaping the Vizsla puppy when he is old enough. I was worried with Flirt I wouldn't have speed only because I've never had a speedy weaver. But I've never had a Dobe agility dog either. I think in hindshight shaping would have helped her get control of her body.

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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-30-2009, 11:12 AM
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Good ol' "bull in a china shop" is what I call Flirt when she weaves.

I'm thinking of shaping the Vizsla puppy when he is old enough. I was worried with Flirt I wouldn't have speed only because I've never had a speedy weaver. But I've never had a Dobe agility dog either. I think in hindshight shaping would have helped her get control of her body.
Do you keep the starting pair of poles closed, or have them open the same amount (2")? If they are open, keep those first 3 poles always in line.


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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-30-2009, 11:26 AM
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Hmm...I am doing it backwards. The first 3 are easier, the last 9 are tougher. Once I get her in, she's fine. She doesn't slow down and collect to get in. Well, she gets the entry and then flies out.

We used Nancy Gyes' method and kept moving poles in but I thought I could do it without guides at all. I didn't want to wean off one more thing, but it bit me in the butt. And I confess each time I got this far, I gave up. So one good thing is that she doesn't have a lot of muscle memory doing them at 2" apart.
If you're keeping the first three open, that's why she's not collecting. Once she gets in, she goes, " Oh CRAP, abort!" because she hasn't collected enough to weave. Getting the first three, collecting for them, and then getting rewarded with going FAST and easy seems to work very well. With W, I "slow my roll" as my agility instructor calls it, lean WAY back to give a VERY clear collection clue and ask for a down before the weaves, at least initially. This gets the collection and he's fine. Now that he auto-collects, I don't ask for the down anymore, but I do still slam my forward motion back to remind him.

When we learned weaves, those poles were closed in two weeks. The wires were the important part, as they helped him with the muscle memory. Once that was cemented, he didn't need the wires and we just gradually removed them.
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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-30-2009, 11:47 AM Thread Starter
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Do you keep the starting pair of poles closed, or have them open the same amount (2")? If they are open, keep those first 3 poles always in line.
The closest I've ever had them is 2" apart for any of the poles. Any tighter and she pops out or won't go in.

She used to chew the guides off. To put them on/take them off hurts my hands (carpal tunnel) and I'd have ot ice for 30 minutes each time we did them so I had given up on guides. As we can see, that didn't work.

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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-30-2009, 11:49 AM Thread Starter
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If you're keeping the first three open, that's why she's not collecting. Once she gets in, she goes, " Oh CRAP, abort!" because she hasn't collected enough to weave. Getting the first three, collecting for them, and then getting rewarded with going FAST and easy seems to work very well. With W, I "slow my roll" as my agility instructor calls it, lean WAY back to give a VERY clear collection clue and ask for a down before the weaves, at least initially. This gets the collection and he's fine. Now that he auto-collects, I don't ask for the down anymore, but I do still slam my forward motion back to remind him.

When we learned weaves, those poles were closed in two weeks. The wires were the important part, as they helped him with the muscle memory. Once that was cemented, he didn't need the wires and we just gradually removed them.

Ah, we don't have a collection cue yet. Even if I have her down at the beginning, for weaves, she won't slow down. It is one of the drills that gets her into her frantic mode. Altho I could put her very close so she doesn't have time to build up speed? Will that bite me in the long run tho?

EUREKA - now I know why she's popping out! Thanks.

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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-30-2009, 12:34 PM
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Ah, we don't have a collection cue yet. Even if I have her down at the beginning, for weaves, she won't slow down. It is one of the drills that gets her into her frantic mode. Altho I could put her very close so she doesn't have time to build up speed? Will that bite me in the long run tho?

EUREKA - now I know why she's popping out! Thanks.
I think she needs to learn to actually weave before you worry about distance work and collection. Keep her in hand, and release her right at the head of the weaves. Let her do the first three tough ones, get rewarded, and if she does the set right, give a food reward or toy that she ONLY gets for the weaves. W ONLY gets his bunny tug after a correct weave or at the end of a run. Never any other time. This makes weaving correctly VERY desirable. I also don't let him access the weaves himself unless we are working on them. If he starts weaving without me, he gets ignored. I can't chance rewarding an incorrect weave. If he does it wrong, I call him to hand, reward him for coming, then try again. If no go after 4 times, then we try again later. No harm, no foul. Some dogs are sided too, try going at the weaves from any angle and see how she is most successful.

Once she is reliably weaving, then ask for collection. Do you have a collection cue for jumping or the table?
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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-30-2009, 12:52 PM Thread Starter
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I think she needs to learn to actually weave before you worry about distance work and collection. Keep her in hand, and release her right at the head of the weaves. Let her do the first three tough ones, get rewarded, and if she does the set right, give a food reward or toy that she ONLY gets for the weaves. W ONLY gets his bunny tug after a correct weave or at the end of a run. Never any other time. This makes weaving correctly VERY desirable. I also don't let him access the weaves himself unless we are working on them. If he starts weaving without me, he gets ignored. I can't chance rewarding an incorrect weave. If he does it wrong, I call him to hand, reward him for coming, then try again. If no go after 4 times, then we try again later. No harm, no foul. Some dogs are sided too, try going at the weaves from any angle and see how she is most successful.

Once she is reliably weaving, then ask for collection. Do you have a collection cue for jumping or the table?
The collection cue is something we are doing beginning of the year. We literally spent so much time keeping her feet on boards, we are way behind in normal training.

We haven't done the table yet. My instructor teaches a bit differently I think. She takes lessons from Kathy Leggett, World Team member/coach. Every single thing is broken down into the tiniest of parts, which is good in the long run but painfully slow to get competing. For example, jumping: we shape going through the uprights without us. We don't just start jumping. We build drive with every obstacle by shaping. Tunnel, tire, teeter, jumps.

She also doesn't want us to lead the dog to an object. She wants the dog to learn it independent of us. In Flirt's case, it might be beneficial to lead her to the weave entrance tho. Also at every level of any obstacle we: run with, send, call over from both sides before we move on.

Typically Flirt only gets the reward if she's done all the poles. When I video, I can't see if she's made them all until I watch it. "Precious" is her toy for weaves. That's the ball I throw for her. It's the only time I use it. The down side is that she gets frantic for the ball or any tug for that matter. She's a good candidate for control unleashed. She will start offering me behaviors, run in circles around me, go over a jump across the yard, etc. on the walk to the weaves. I always make her stop and settle before releasing but she's stilll on the verge of being out of control. She's not running off with zoomies but offering me behaviors if that makes sense.

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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-30-2009, 02:34 PM
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The collection cue is something we are doing beginning of the year. We literally spent so much time keeping her feet on boards, we are way behind in normal training.

We haven't done the table yet. My instructor teaches a bit differently I think. She takes lessons from Kathy Leggett, World Team member/coach. Every single thing is broken down into the tiniest of parts, which is good in the long run but painfully slow to get competing. For example, jumping: we shape going through the uprights without us. We don't just start jumping. We build drive with every obstacle by shaping. Tunnel, tire, teeter, jumps.

She also doesn't want us to lead the dog to an object. She wants the dog to learn it independent of us. In Flirt's case, it might be beneficial to lead her to the weave entrance tho. Also at every level of any obstacle we: run with, send, call over from both sides before we move on.

Typically Flirt only gets the reward if she's done all the poles. When I video, I can't see if she's made them all until I watch it. "Precious" is her toy for weaves. That's the ball I throw for her. It's the only time I use it. The down side is that she gets frantic for the ball or any tug for that matter. She's a good candidate for control unleashed. She will start offering me behaviors, run in circles around me, go over a jump across the yard, etc. on the walk to the weaves. I always make her stop and settle before releasing but she's stilll on the verge of being out of control. She's not running off with zoomies but offering me behaviors if that makes sense.
Have a look at this video at 1:45 mark to see what can happen when a dog doesn't collect. This is a video from Cindy Nolan who runs a Malinois, a Dobe and a BC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7iUuM9bw94


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post #16 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-30-2009, 02:57 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by vivienne00 View Post
Have a look at this video at 1:45 mark to see what can happen when a dog doesn't collect. This is a video from Cindy Nolan who runs a Malinois, a Dobe and a BC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7iUuM9bw94
OUCH

It is definitely something my instructor teaches. With my Vizslas, they are close enough that a subtle slowing down of my body would get them to collect. Flirt is just starting to sequence at class. And my homework over the break was to pick a collectoin word (which I haven't done yet). She uses the dog's name very softly. I think I need to go with something I don't say that often that I can say loudly. Her sheltie is a lot softer than Flirt. I've also probably over-rewarded Flirt for doing distance/obstacles without me because I've never had one that did it and suck at teaching it...isn't it always the hanlder's fault??

I've also thought about not using her high value reinforcer and just food. She won't be as frantic.

I think you and Jess hit the nail on the head tho with me having the weaves set up "backwards" - more open in front, more closed as she progresses.

It's my year for doing whacky things. I know better! I had my Vizslas pup at the vet the other day and she had me stack him up for her and I've been grabbing his foot rather than his upper leg to stack him the whole time and for some reason, I couldn't get his front right. I KNOW BETTER Maybe with age my memory is going too!!

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post #17 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-30-2009, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Adara View Post
OUCH

It is definitely something my instructor teaches. With my Vizslas, they are close enough that a subtle slowing down of my body would get them to collect. Flirt is just starting to sequence at class. And my homework over the break was to pick a collectoin word (which I haven't done yet). She uses the dog's name very softly. I think I need to go with something I don't say that often that I can say loudly. Her sheltie is a lot softer than Flirt. I've also probably over-rewarded Flirt for doing distance/obstacles without me because I've never had one that did it and suck at teaching it...isn't it always the hanlder's fault??

I've also thought about not using her high value reinforcer and just food. She won't be as frantic.

I think you and Jess hit the nail on the head tho with me having the weaves set up "backwards" - more open in front, more closed as she progresses.

It's my year for doing whacky things. I know better! I had my Vizslas pup at the vet the other day and she had me stack him up for her and I've been grabbing his foot rather than his upper leg to stack him the whole time and for some reason, I couldn't get his front right. I KNOW BETTER Maybe with age my memory is going too!!
Yes it is always the handler's fault, but...

But since dogs are human too (sort of), sometimes it is just bad luck and we can't program them to be robots. So we have to give some of the responsibility for completing the job to the dog once they have been taught to do the job right.


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post #18 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-30-2009, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vivienne00 View Post
Have a look at this video at 1:45 mark to see what can happen when a dog doesn't collect. This is a video from Cindy Nolan who runs a Malinois, a Dobe and a BC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7iUuM9bw94
That was very much the flooring too. The dogs seemed to be reeling the speed in because they were concerned with slipping. Did they have the weaves duct taped down?

Poor baby dog.
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post #19 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-30-2009, 05:32 PM
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That was very much the flooring too. The dogs seemed to be reeling the speed in because they were concerned with slipping. Did they have the weaves duct taped down?

Poor baby dog.
Umm, not a baby dog.

She ranks 22 currently for the Agility TT:

22 Jerilyn's Joint Venture (Inci)
owner:C. Noland, T. Weldon & A. Platt
Std yps: 3.56 JWW yps: 4.75 Points: 16,900


also Cindy did imply that it is possible she slipped because the floor was quite dirty by then with a lot of hair floating around but that she usually doesn't slip on this kind of flooring and trains on it 3 times a week.

now that's interesting that A. Platt co-owns - Anna Platt maybe? hmm.


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Last edited by vivienne00; 12-30-2009 at 05:48 PM.
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post #20 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-30-2009, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vivienne00 View Post
Umm, not a baby dog.

She ranks 22 currently for the Agility TT:

22 Jerilyn's Joint Venture (Inci)
owner:C. Noland, T. Weldon & A. Platt
Std yps: 3.56 JWW yps: 4.75 Points: 16,900

now that's interesting that A. Platt co-owns - Anna Platt maybe? hmm.
Eh, I call every dog "babydog," more of a term of endearment than statement of age. I know Cindy has some very good dogs. :p
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post #21 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-31-2009, 09:03 AM
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yes, it is ann platt. that's also tammy weldon (swift run).


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