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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-07-2009, 07:11 PM Thread Starter
 
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Protection Genetics Question

I have done a lot of research on the genetics of our breed and I have found that due to some genetic differences from the other working breeds the Dobermann needs to be trained in a slightly different way than the others.
Since the Dobermann was originated from more of a Terrier/Mastiff background instead of a herding one, the predatory sequence is slightly altered because of this. Gary Patterson has a special section on his most recent book about training the Dobermann, he emphasizes on making the first bite very hard to get for the Dobermann and then lessen the difficulty after the first one. I have experienced this myself while working a few Dobermanns where they need to be stimulated a lot on prey drive before taking the first bite or else the grip won't be as hard as it would be when the dog is on drive already, are any other trainers out there experiencing the same with their Dobermanns? Any input?
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-07-2009, 09:37 PM
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Maybe they will find the "leave the cat alone gene" and turn it on in my next dobe.
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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-08-2009, 12:15 AM
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I disagree that you must work prey a lot. I think they work better in fight.
( not to mean the same as defense)I find my dogs get lazy and lose drive when worked only in prey.
I don't understand at all why you would make any bites easier in training - unless you were starting a puppy or needed to build confidence.


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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-08-2009, 07:48 AM
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I agree with incredidobe here, The dobes I have worked do much better in fight drive than prey drive, after all they were bred to be companion, guard dogs, thus they arent as prey driven as they are fight or protection driven. Also if I am not mistaken, didnt they finally say the doberman isnt actually from terrier lines, thus thats why they have dropped the pinscher aspect of the name in alot of circles?

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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-08-2009, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proving Ground Kennels View Post
I have done a lot of research on the genetics of our breed and I have found that due to some genetic differences from the other working breeds the Dobermann needs to be trained in a slightly different way than the others.
Since the Dobermann was originated from more of a Terrier/Mastiff background instead of a herding one, the predatory sequence is slightly altered because of this. Gary Patterson has a special section on his most recent book about training the Dobermann, he emphasizes on making the first bite very hard to get for the Dobermann and then lessen the difficulty after the first one. I have experienced this myself while working a few Dobermanns where they need to be stimulated a lot on prey drive before taking the first bite or else the grip won't be as hard as it would be when the dog is on drive already, are any other trainers out there experiencing the same with their Dobermanns? Any input?
In think it depends on the dog. What you are describing has more to do with working a dog who lacks sufficient prey drive. I think there are an awful a lot clubs out there tend to work all dogs the way you describe. We talk about it as doing the work of the dog for the dog. There are downsides to this kind of training, which is 100% prey work. Often the dogs have trouble handling pressure in more difficult trialing situations. It may get you to the title but can make competing for podiums in higher levels of competition more difficult to achieve. Training should attempt to develop a balance of drives.

I at first kind of misread what you were saying. From time to time, we make the dog miss the sleeve especially in the long bite, and then giving mild stimulation with the electric collar until they re-engage the helper. However this is not done with prey drive stimulation first of all. In fact Hara for one is more prey drive oriented than defense drive oriented. For a defensive dog you would want to do more work in prey, with prey monsters you would want to invoke more fight drive in the dog.
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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-08-2009, 05:24 PM
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Slightly off topic, but related. I personally don't view "fight" as a drive. The definition of drive to me is a dog *driving* towards an end goal, and when that goal is achieved the dog is almost euphoric in it's satisfaction. Prey drive is a dog very actively working to get it's object of desire, the sleeve. Once that sleeve is in the dog's possession the drive stops and the dog will either charge around triumphantly with it's object, or stand calmly holding it's object in a very relaxed, fulfilled manner in sheer contentment. Wash and repeat. The drive ceases until the object is again removed from the dog's possession and he actively engages to try to get it back. Defense is the same in that the dog is actively confronting a threat trying to make it stop and or go away. They are putting on a show of great bravado. Once the threat is removed, the drive is satisfied.

Imagine REALLY wanting something. Once you have it you are happy, you have fulfilled the goal. Now imagine yourself in a fight. The anger doesn't dissipate immediately when the fight ends, it still boils. It's not a "drive" because it has no end goal that instantly satisfies, it's a *feeling* not a personal destination. I believe aggression to be the same. While it may be closely related to fight, they are still different. Some guys like a good fight, and will even fight with their friends just for the sheer enjoyment of it. Just ask my down home southern boyfriend, when he was young he and his friends used to get in serious fist fights just for the sheer enjoyment of it. There is no goal, they simply enjoy the fight itself. Definitely a guy thing in humans, I don't get it And getting into a fight out of anger/rage is completely different. There is no end goal with rage/anger, it just has to dissipate on it's own, it won't just magically disappear in an instant. A dog will of course still have whatever drive package that it possesses, but the presence or absence of any fight and/or aggression will modify how the dog acts in those drives.

That was a lot of rambling. The point being, I believe a true drive by it's definition is to be *driven* towards a specific end goal, while fight and aggression are a state of mind, a feeling, something that once triggered isn't satiated by simply possessing a sleeve.

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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-08-2009, 07:38 PM
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“Drives” - Drives are genetically influenced and can be bred for or bred against. Often, the term “drive” is substituted to mean an amount or type of behavior exhibited by a dog. For example; this dog has a lot of prey drive, meaning that it shows pursuing, grasping behaviors at a high frequency and that it performs these behaviors with little inhibition. In classical psychology, the term drive is antiquated but it suffices to help describe behaviors adequately enough for the purpose of Service Dog training and deployment. Drives often become arbitrary divisions of a canine’s behaviors since seldom does one behavioral trait exist without the influence of another upon that behavior. There are many “drives” that can exist in a variety of intensities. For training purposes, some drives are desirable and some are not.

Fight - This is the drive to test the dog’s own strength and physical prowess against an opponent. There is no fear and there is no anger involved. It’s like two guys that want put on boxing gloves and go toe to toe, loser buys the beer. It is done for the love of combat. This drive influences many others.


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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-08-2009, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie W View Post
Slightly off topic, but related. I personally don't view "fight" as a drive. The definition of drive to me is a dog *driving* towards an end goal, and when that goal is achieved the dog is almost euphoric in it's satisfaction. Prey drive is a dog very actively working to get it's object of desire, the sleeve. Once that sleeve is in the dog's possession the drive stops and the dog will either charge around triumphantly with it's object, or stand calmly holding it's object in a very relaxed, fulfilled manner in sheer contentment. Wash and repeat. The drive ceases until the object is again removed from the dog's possession and he actively engages to try to get it back. Defense is the same in that the dog is actively confronting a threat trying to make it stop and or go away. They are putting on a show of great bravado. Once the threat is removed, the drive is satisfied.

Imagine REALLY wanting something. Once you have it you are happy, you have fulfilled the goal. Now imagine yourself in a fight. The anger doesn't dissipate immediately when the fight ends, it still boils. It's not a "drive" because it has no end goal that instantly satisfies, it's a *feeling* not a personal destination. I believe aggression to be the same. While it may be closely related to fight, they are still different. Some guys like a good fight, and will even fight with their friends just for the sheer enjoyment of it. Just ask my down home southern boyfriend, when he was young he and his friends used to get in serious fist fights just for the sheer enjoyment of it. There is no goal, they simply enjoy the fight itself. Definitely a guy thing in humans, I don't get it And getting into a fight out of anger/rage is completely different. There is no end goal with rage/anger, it just has to dissipate on it's own, it won't just magically disappear in an instant. A dog will of course still have whatever drive package that it possesses, but the presence or absence of any fight and/or aggression will modify how the dog acts in those drives.

That was a lot of rambling. The point being, I believe a true drive by it's definition is to be *driven* towards a specific end goal, while fight and aggression are a state of mind, a feeling, something that once triggered isn't satiated by simply possessing a sleeve.
I see drives as the way an individual dog is born programmed to react. They can be worked with and manipulated but the basic drive causes the dogs natural reaction to a stimulus. This would be to me what a dog with no training would initially respond with. What one dog sees as prey and is excited about another dog will dismiss. Some dogs switch into defence quickly and others take a lot of work. I think the ideal is the dog with as said before balanced reactions. One that can work comfortably in whatever is required for the situation. Not always easy to find.
JMO.
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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-08-2009, 08:53 PM Thread Starter
 
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I should've clarified that I'm talking about working puppies and beginning bitework here, I'm not talking about a dog that's older than a year old, so yes I'm referring myself to working strictly on prey.
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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-09-2009, 01:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proving Ground Kennels View Post
I should've clarified that I'm talking about working puppies and beginning bitework here, I'm not talking about a dog that's older than a year old, so yes I'm referring myself to working strictly on prey.
In our system that would still be a mistake in training methodology. You want the dog to become active and not reactive to the sleeve. The barking should signal the movement of the sleeve not the movement of the sleeve signaling the dog to become active. You might do this in the VERY beginning of a puppy being trained to get them interested in the tug, but this should quickly transition to the puppy barking to make things happen. This is what I was referring to as doing the work for the dog. It can create other problems in a number of areas.
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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-09-2009, 03:06 AM
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When the helper makes the dog miss the sleeve, pillow, rag, it's in prey, it builds frustration, and only a higher level of PREY drive, I don't see this creating the dog's 1st bite any harder, whatever age, so you have to make more and more misses, escape bites are prey.

Why do some dogs bite harder after a stick hit, not because it's in prey drive.
because it want's to, FIGHT drive.

Some dogs can not work in defense because of the pressure the helper brings at them, or puts on them, they start to get red eyed, chewy, and less then full bites, this is where you start to see the dogs nerves and how good the genetics really are. Weak nerved dogs working in defense/fight get close to avoidance with a lot of defense pressure, and may run off the field or not ingage. FLIGHT drive.
The long bite and back transport re-attack are defense bites.

reading the dog, if it spits out the sleeve after a bite and starts barking at the helper, it's in defense, add more prey and the dog will carry the sleeve longer, if the dog only wants the sleeve in it's mouth for 10 minutes and won't out, it's been worked in prey too much, add too much pressure and it may fold, not a good schutzhund dog any way.

Yes it's all about balance, but my personaly belief is Dobes ARE DIFFERENT,
they come geneticaly programmed different then other breds with more defense.
Some disagree, but you'll hear prey or defense in the barks.

I don't think pups should be put into or worked in defense till at least 1 year,
maybe more, and no OB either, for other reason.
I'm in no hurry to burn my dog out 4-5 yrs old.

Julie, understand your dog's drives.
fight or flight..is a drive and a choice, go see Jack and Wendy Volards personality test
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he explains how prey works vs def.
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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-09-2009, 03:36 AM
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Volhard Dog Training and Nutrition: Behavior and Training: Canine Personality Profile

Fight behaviors tend not to be fully developed until the dog is over two years of age, although tendencies towards these behaviors will be seen at an earlier age. Examples of fight behaviors are a dog that "stands tall," stares at other dogs and likes to "strut his stuff." He will stand his ground with his ears and whiskers pointed forward and his tail held up. He will go toward unfamiliar objects or situations, and his hackles will go up from his shoulders to his neck. He may guard his food, toys or territory from other dogs or people, and may dislike being petted or groomed. Such a dog will lie in front of doorways or cupboards, making his owner walk around him.
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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-09-2009, 03:51 AM
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Quote:
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When the helper makes the dog miss the sleeve, pillow, rag, it's in prey, it builds frustration, and only a higher level of PREY drive, I don't see this creating the dog's 1st bite any harder, whatever age, so you have to make more and more misses, escape bites are prey.

Why do some dogs bite harder after a stick hit, not because it's in prey drive.
because it want's to, FIGHT drive.

Some dogs can not work in defense because of the pressure the helper brings at them, or puts on them, they start to get red eyed, chewy, and less then full bites, this is where you start to see the dogs nerves and how good the genetics really are. Weak nerved dogs working in defense/fight get close to avoidance with a lot of defense pressure, and may run off the field or not ingage. FLIGHT drive.
The long bite and back transport re-attack are defense bites.

reading the dog, if it spits out the sleeve after a bite and starts barking at the helper, it's in defense, add more prey and the dog will carry the sleeve longer, if the dog only wants the sleeve in it's mouth for 10 minutes and won't out, it's been worked in prey too much, add too much pressure and it may fold, not a good schutzhund dog any way.

Yes it's all about balance, but my personaly belief is Dobes ARE DIFFERENT,
they come geneticaly programmed different then other breds with more defense.
Some disagree, but you'll hear prey or defense in the barks.

I don't think pups should be put into or worked in defense till at least 1 year,
maybe more, and no OB either, for other reason.
I'm in no hurry to burn my dog out 4-5 yrs old.

Julie, understand your dog's drives.
fight or flight..is a drive and a choice, go see Jack and Wendy Volards personality test
enjoy
Articles
he explains how prey works vs def.
damn Dobefun, no argument from me on this one....except I still think it is more about the individual dog than the breed.
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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-09-2009, 10:40 AM
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Julie, understand your dog's drives.
fight or flight..is a drive and a choice, go see Jack and Wendy Volards personality test
enjoy
Articles
he explains how prey works vs def.
I simply disagree with you. It's not like that is such a rare thing in schutzhund, don't take it personally.

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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-09-2009, 07:22 PM
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damn Dobefun, no argument from me on this one....except I still think it is more about the individual dog than the breed.
I agree with you Rosamburg about each dog is an individual. I have noticed a few peculiar behaviors that seem to be common in the breed but over all you should train the dog you have.

For example, some dogs DO need to begin obedience training before reaching 1 year of age. I would say using marker training would be best on this intelligent breed.
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post #16 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-09-2009, 10:13 PM
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I agree with you Rosamburg about each dog is an individual. I have noticed a few peculiar behaviors that seem to be common in the breed but over all you should train the dog you have.

For example, some dogs DO need to begin obedience training before reaching 1 year of age. I would say using marker training would be best on this intelligent breed.
Yes my young dog/puppy Ace is one dog I probably SHOULD have done a lot more OB on before now since he will be 1 next week. He is one hard headed and strong young dog. Corrections barely phase him.
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post #17 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-09-2009, 11:09 PM
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Yes my young dog/puppy Ace is one dog I probably SHOULD have done a lot more OB on before now since he will be 1 next week. He is one hard headed and strong young dog. Corrections barely phase him.
Ha Ha! Well you've got your hands full now!

Yea, corrections like a sharp pop on the prong will often times stimulate my dobe bringing on more drive! Forget using it during bitework.

Going to try a compression collar, like those thin nylon show collars to simply lift up to apply pressure to bring the beast down a few notches.

Still it's been a battle but if it wasn't then somethings wrong. My motto: quitters never win and winners never quit!
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post #18 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-10-2009, 02:33 AM
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Ha Ha! Well you've got your hands full now!

Yea, corrections like a sharp pop on the prong will often times stimulate my dobe bringing on more drive! Forget using it during bitework.

Going to try a compression collar, like those thin nylon show collars to simply lift up to apply pressure to bring the beast down a few notches.

!
Nylon slip collars are not real safe because they release too slow.
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