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post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-12-2018, 02:56 AM Thread Starter
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Bite Protection

I had a question. When a trainer goes from being the handler to playing attacker. How does the dog know when and when not to bite the guy?

See this video:

https://youtu.be/GoFeHpTg09w
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post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-12-2018, 04:42 AM
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The vast majority of bitesport is obedience training at a higher level than basic manners. The child gave the dog commands, that's all.

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post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-12-2018, 07:51 AM
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What would you estimate the the weight of Falon to be in the Video?
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post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-13-2018, 09:45 AM Thread Starter
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So would the dog attack the person even if he was NOT wearing the hand sleeve?

Could the attacker change roles and take over as being a handler? If so, how does the dog know who is foe or friend?
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post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-13-2018, 10:27 AM
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The guy is obviously this dog's trainer, since she frequently starts a behavior when he instructs the kid to tell her to do something.

It's entirely possible that the dog has been trained on a hidden sleeve, and would bite without the visual cue. With just this one video, there's no way to tell if that's true or not.


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post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-13-2018, 11:39 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary View Post
The guy is obviously this dog's trainer, since she frequently starts a behavior when he instructs the kid to tell her to do something.

It's entirely possible that the dog has been trained on a hidden sleeve, and would bite without the visual cue. With just this one video, there's no way to tell if that's true or not.

So in essence the dog will bite the trainer. Is that normal?
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post #7 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-13-2018, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Pettrix View Post
So in essence the dog will bite the trainer. Is that normal?
It all depends on how they are trained. Some handlers might do some of their own decoy work. Others don't.


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post #8 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-21-2018, 01:42 AM
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It would definitely be preferable that the handler does not do the helper/decoy work. It is impossible to maintain proper drives for the job at hand. You do not want to have the dog see the helper as a friend.
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post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-21-2018, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosamburg View Post
It would definitely be preferable that the handler does not do the helper/decoy work. It is impossible to maintain proper drives for the job at hand. You do not want to have the dog see the helper as a friend.
And a differing point of view. http://denisefenzi.com/protection-training-ipo/


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post #10 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-22-2018, 01:26 AM
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I watched the video and the Fenzi "protactiion" work could not have done a better job of making my point. The guarding is not convincing. The dog shows no real drive into the helper and shows no fight in the work. It is not even at a mediocre level.

Last edited by Rosamburg; 03-22-2018 at 01:29 AM.
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post #11 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-20-2018, 08:16 PM
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A month with no comments? Any bite sport/real working people here anymore?
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post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-20-2018, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosamburg View Post
A month with no comments? Any bite sport/real working people here anymore?
Rosamburg - I have always respected your opinions here, enjoy-treasure the content of your posts and your
style of training in a most difficult IPO sport...achieving the high & difficult levels.

DT has become a real thinning herd, in the last few years / I wish more like yourself, with great mentors, gifted knowledge and helping others...continue to produce some great working dogs & show up here (still).
- once every few years, differences of opinions (training style) in a long thread...usually heat up & egos hurt
- and chatter of emotions...usually takes out, a handful of members / from both sides, of the fence

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post #13 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-20-2018, 09:24 PM
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I look at the age of the handler and of the dog. Either not very old. For the level, I think both are going to do well down the road. Is it IPO 3, no but a solid start. And even if this team just does obedience, they will kick some butt of some older performers.
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post #14 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-21-2018, 02:01 AM
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Quote:
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I look at the age of the handler and of the dog. Either not very old. For the level, I think both are going to do well down the road. Is it IPO 3, no but a solid start. And even if this team just does obedience, they will kick some butt of some older performers.
I was not referring to the video that the OP posted, but the article by Fenzi, with a highly edited video clip of her working her dog on a helper. That was what I was commenting on. I would never offer a critical review of a novice handler, especially a young handler. However, IMO self-proclaimed experts, especially one selling their services are fair game.

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post #15 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-21-2018, 02:03 AM
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You have to search for the Fenzi article with the video clip, Rosemary's link did not work for me, at least the video.
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post #16 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-21-2018, 02:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pettrix View Post
I had a question. When a trainer goes from being the handler to playing attacker. How does the dog know when and when not to bite the guy?

See this video:

https://youtu.be/GoFeHpTg09w
The dog is responding mostly to the helper shoving a sleeve at him. What the child has commanded has very little to do with what the dog is doing, but more to prey movement of the helper. For this dog it is really more play than anything. Biggest clue is the barking. High pitched barking is generally a sign of a dog being in prey/play drive, and not aggression or defense drive.
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post #17 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-21-2018, 08:39 AM
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I guess other have disagreed with you, since the dog in the video has an IPO3 and MR1.

And my post was more to point out a difference in training philosophy than to discuss how a certain dog looks in "a highly edited video clip".


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post #18 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-21-2018, 10:54 AM
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I'm responding to the work I saw. At the world championships I saw dogs with IPO3s they got somewhere that could barely get on the field for the practices sessions. Day of the Championships they could not get on the field.

If you want to break it down further. She said in the article the dog was preparing for an IPO 3. In that clip the dog in OB did not respond to her command to heel and had to be lured into position. From that point forward it exhibited low drive, its guarding was barely satisfactory, the barking was indicative of a dog begging for a ball to be thrown. This is likely why they went to a silent guard on the field, even there the dogs attentiveness is more like "please throw me a ball, please", It then gets the equivalent which is the helper popping the sleeve instead of direct pressure. In the work there is absolutely no pressure from the helper. Sure, under very favorable conditions the dog can get an IPO title... But to demonstrate this as good work, which should be emulated is a farce. For a novice handler that wants to get a title and whose main goal is just something fun to do with their dog, then whatever. But for a "professional", that is demonstrating the work as something for followers to emulate...then I have an issue with it. In the end for this type of work to be tolerated the standard for judging gets lowered to the point where it is not Schutzhund anymore.

I choose to follow trainers that can and do compete at the highest level.
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post #19 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-23-2018, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
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A month with no comments? Any bite sport/real working people here anymore?
Rosamburg, forum participation in general has dropped off. I think some of it is that Facebook is so much more popular.

I, for one, would love to see some of the old "regulars" pop back in more often. I don't think we ever had a HUGE working sport membership, but I always found it interesting to see what people like you have to say. It's interesting to me to get a glimpse into that training/competition world. I've always found your contributions valuable.

I think the beauty of this forum has always been that people are allowed to discuss and disagree and learn from one another.
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post #20 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-21-2018, 06:11 AM
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You could check out the GSD forum as there may be more bite sport / working people on there!I have a GSD puppy not a doberman but I love coming to this forum pretty much daily and incorporating lots of advice/tips I read on here! Both forums are great - and the set up is identical to DT
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post #21 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-02-2018, 02:56 PM
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Rosamburg and I are mostly in agreement when it comes to Protection training issues.

There are a couple points where our opinions diverge; but I think we are on the same sheet of music when it come to understanding/recognizing there are differences in what the dog perceives is happening during "Bitework".

A lot of people simply do not understand that evaluating temperament suitability through Protection Work is different from simply training the Protection phase to pass a trial. Evaluating temperament is supposed to be the point, but between weak dogs and a competition mindset it's become bastardized into something else.

Lack of knowledge runs across owners of all breeds, but for whatever it seems to me that it's worse among Dobermann owners than say, German Shepherd Dog owners for example.

Protection training for dogs can be compared somewhat to Martial Arts training for humans. It's a rough comparison but helps folks understand a little.

Within their physical limitations, anyone can train a Martial Art. That doesn't mean they are any good at it. Climbing up in rank is a reasonable indicator that someone has learned the strikes/blocks/choreography that matches their rank. HOWEVER being a high ranking Martial Artist does NOT mean that a person possess the capacity to actually fight, or to be a good fighter. Plenty of Martial Art practitioners are fully capable of holding their own in a 'real' fight, but that capability comes from more than just training and earning belts- it comes from inside the person.

Dogs are not people but we can make some comparisons. Bite training is a lot Karate class. You start your pup off in beginner level classes where it's safe and easy then build up to more intense and difficult levels. A dog can earn a IPO3 and still lack commitment to live bite or even run from an actual threat.

This is a key point that a lot of people miss- Through all of a dogs early training there is no real threat or Bad guy. It's all fake/pretend. A GOOD dog; that is to say a dog with breed correct temperament will damn well know it's all fake and will love the game. If you have a dog that is stressed or challenged by the fake/pretend game, one must question whether the dog should be participating in the training.

Rosamburg and I agree 100% that once a young/green dog is ready, you need a helper who can get inside a dogs head and push him out of the comfort/play zone.

A point where we disagree is the value of continuing the play-bitework with a mature dog. I think it's fine for a dog to keep practicing his moves or "Kata's" and sparing with a coach/friend.

I agree with Rosamburg that there are some trainers who don't know the difference between playing "Protection" vs training in such a way where we can start to evaluate whether or not a dog has the "Right Stuff" inside. Without spending time in person training with someone, we can only discern so much about a trainer from video and articles. With that said, some popular trainers provide zero evidence that they understand they're only training "play" protection.

So, to answer the OP question, in the video the dog doesn't see any threat or actual "Bad Guy". The dog plays with the helper when told it's OK to do so.

Will do dog bite an actual Bad Guy? We don't know based on just the video. It depends both on the dogs genetics what other helper work the dog has been exposed to.

Here are two videos. Both show a dog 100% playing. You can hear a bit of the rhythmic, high pitched barking Rosamburg mentioned and you can tell by the dogs body language it's just a game. First video is without a sleeve. You can see the dog knows he can cause injury so he is slow and careful. Next is with a jacket. The dog recognizes equipment, bites hard and ups his intensity. Still just a game though and means zero with regards to whether he'd bite an actual bad guy.

[youtube=video]VdUiYYOZFtc[/youtube]

[youtube=video]kOkl6Ys1ScQ[/youtube]

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post #22 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-03-2018, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pettrix View Post
So would the dog attack the person even if he was NOT wearing the hand sleeve?
A lot of dogs refuse to bite someone in 'civilian' sans suit or sleeve because they are taught to bite the sleeve. Some dogs will even favour one arm over the other and won't always bite if the sleeve isn't on their preferred arm (this is not the type of dog to aspire to). It really depends on each dog and the type of training behind it.

A woman in the French Ring club Nadia and I attended for a while is a police officer. Her current female is not a Doberman, but a Malinois (although this woman has owned dobies before... had a RingIII male who was unfortunately a cryptorchid) and she took her to work tracking a thief this winter. People had repeatedly nay-sayer'd this bitch saying she'd never bite a civilian etc. Well, they corner this thief in a pipe or whatever, bitch is barking like crazy. Handler warns the thief to surrender and come out or the dog will bite (and, it's in the middle of winter so he was probably freezing his ass off). After giving him several chances, handler gives her bitch the command to attack. There was a moment of hesitation/confusion, looking up to her handler she described as "really?? I get to do this? But he's not wearing a suit?" before she dove into the pipe and grabbed him by the arm. Even through his thick winter coat his arm was pretty bruised.

I would say, based on what Rosamburg and adhahn have already explained that one of the key factors here is this bitch's ability to discern between work and 'play' which is likely also boosted by the type of training.

I can't speak to the IPO circuit in the US but one of the things that I heard at French Ring trials in Canada from people involved in both Ring and IPO, is that a lot of IPO decoys/helpers here do not put as much pressure on the dogs, especially not during training which means their dogs are less likely to develop a real forward defensive drive, unless they're being trained up in a true, fear-based defence (but very few people like doing that these days, at least around these parts). (Also my apologies if my technical terms don't translate)
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post #23 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-07-2018, 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
A lot of dogs refuse to bite someone in 'civilian' sans suit or sleeve because they are taught to bite the sleeve. Some dogs will even favour one arm over the other and won't always bite if the sleeve isn't on their preferred arm (this is not the type of dog to aspire to). It really depends on each dog and the type of training behind it.

A woman in the French Ring club Nadia and I attended for a while is a police officer. Her current female is not a Doberman, but a Malinois (although this woman has owned dobies before... had a RingIII male who was unfortunately a cryptorchid) and she took her to work tracking a thief this winter. People had repeatedly nay-sayer'd this bitch saying she'd never bite a civilian etc. Well, they corner this thief in a pipe or whatever, bitch is barking like crazy. Handler warns the thief to surrender and come out or the dog will bite (and, it's in the middle of winter so he was probably freezing his ass off). After giving him several chances, handler gives her bitch the command to attack. There was a moment of hesitation/confusion, looking up to her handler she described as "really?? I get to do this? But he's not wearing a suit?" before she dove into the pipe and grabbed him by the arm. Even through his thick winter coat his arm was pretty bruised.

I would say, based on what Rosamburg and adhahn have already explained that one of the key factors here is this bitch's ability to discern between work and 'play' which is likely also boosted by the type of training.

I can't speak to the IPO circuit in the US but one of the things that I heard at French Ring trials in Canada from people involved in both Ring and IPO, is that a lot of IPO decoys/helpers here do not put as much pressure on the dogs, especially not during training which means their dogs are less likely to develop a real forward defensive drive, unless they're being trained up in a true, fear-based defence (but very few people like doing that these days, at least around these parts). (Also my apologies if my technical terms don't translate)
It depends a lot on the training, and the natural temperament of the individual dog. In our system (West Coast German Shepherd Schutzhund Club) we are striving for power in the dogs. This is demonstrated in the barking and hindering of the helper. We do our best to keep it about the man not the sleeve. This is accomplished with developing the foundation of the puppy completely in prey drive. This persists until the young dog (12-14 months) when they are introduced in defense drive to the helper. Hopefully this will translate to the dog it is about the helper not the equipment. The challenge with a high nerve, high prey drive dog is that it can easily become about the equipment. Especially when they see very little as a threat. If the dog becomes too obviously in prey, then we will put the helper into a bite suit. This is a specially made suit. It can be a struggle to keep the dog in the middle line between defense and prey. However the dog will have a lot more power when it strikes out of true aggression (forward defense drive???, not sure if this what your are describing here) as opposed to what most people and training sytems achieve...which is frustrated prey drive.

As far as FR and IPO decoys... I don't know many crossover trainers in Canada... and I train completely in Canada. It is really a different game. I have attended a few FR training sessions and 1 seminar but the training appears to me (I was pretty young in the bite sport arena at the time) to be primarily based in prey. As far as pressure, I am not sure what you are referring to.... Direct threats vs sleeve popping? Our helpers at my WC would get an ass-chewing for popping sleeves or being an over-active helper. Most training systems feature an over-active helper. This promotes the dog coming completely from prey drive, which greatly decreases the power in the dog, especially over time.
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post #24 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-11-2018, 01:36 AM
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Perhaps I should've said in Quebec - don't know of any crossover trainers but because French Ring clubs are so far and few, it isn't rare for IPO clubs to graciously lend their fields for training to Ring clubs, which is where the comments about pressure are being made. And no, not sleeve-popping (if it is what you mean), I'm talking about direct threats, stare downs, sticks etc. Basically presenting himself a hostile element.

You are definitely correct that Ring is primarily prey-drive based at its foundation especially these days, though some dogs are also brought along in solely or primary defensive mode but... I was warned this can really change the psyche of some dogs even off the field so it's a choice to carefully consider depending on what your living situation is like. It becomes less sport and more 'real'. You want prey drive in Ring because you want the dog to be as forward as possible. I know of a trainer who has trained non-traditional working breeds for the challenge of it and has put a Ring II on a lab... essentially did it by teaching a force-retrieve. But you still need to have a courageous dog with some level of protection instinct especially for a defence, object-guard and frontal attacks. The latter is where a decoy will often put the most pressure on the dog, act unpredictable etc. especially in a Ring III. I've seen dogs give up when a stick barrage is produced for example, and others boldly dive right into it to bite the decoy's leg or leap up to grab the chest of the suit. In Ring what it really comes down to is a confrontation between the dog and the decoy, so you have to have a balance between prey/defence as well. Less defensive than in IPO maybe because they may have to seek out the decoy in a different manner than you'd see in IPO at times.

And yes that is what I meant by forward defence drive - "agression" but the way my trainer described it was more like... the dog being so 'scared' that it feels it has no choice but to attack the decoy even if that decoy is down at the other end of the field. That the dog feels it has no other choice but to deal with this threat immediately.
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post #25 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-13-2018, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
..............................................snip .............................

And yes that is what I meant by forward defence drive - "agression" but the way my trainer described it was more like... the dog being so 'scared' that it feels it has no choice but to attack the decoy even if that decoy is down at the other end of the field. That the dog feels it has no other choice but to deal with this threat immediately.

I've never participated in French Ring training. It's interesting to read info from participants.

Some of our conclusions about what a drives a dog is pure speculation. IMO, the best trainers simply read a dogs reactions then take advantage of the dogs strengths while building weak areas. The exceptional trainers don't get stuck on single training method or philosophy (although they may have a primary one).

We have need to identify and label the drives or behaviors we observe in dogs, at least in a way we can understand for ourselves. A problem sometimes arises when we attempt to share those labels or explain what we perceive is going on in a dogs head.

Personally, I do not like fear based Defensive reactions. One of the few times I will tolerate them is when you have a strong nerved dog who just doesn't take things seriously, or a dog locked into prey and just won't snap out of it. In a nutshell, when you have a dog that just stuck playing the game and nothing else is working to make him serious. Dogs like that are not fearful dogs, it's quite the opposite, their problem is being somewhat fearless. I simply don't like placing even this type dog in fear unless everything else has been exhausted. This may be where the idea of personality change comes from- I think it's possible a dog can hold a grudge from being placed into actual fear. After all, you took a dog who thought life was all fun, games and prey and rocked his world with an "OH #%&$" experience. What you are hoping for in these extreme cases is to show a dog that he CAN be trapped/hurt, BUT he CAN come out a winner through forward aggression.

IMO, there are other ways to bring out seriousness besides fear based training.

What I like to see is a form of Social Aggression. The dog reacts to a "threat", but not out of fear. Even using the term "threat" is misleading. I don't want a dog who is placed into fear by a stare down or body posturing, I want a dog who is challenged or offended by it.

I'm not sure a dog can be so fearful of a threat at the other end of a field that he believes he must deal with it through forward aggression. Fear would more likely motivate him to deal with it in some other way.

The temperament characteristic I want present is one where the dog sees more than just some dummy holding the prey object (sleeve). I want the dog to feel he's competing with the helper. The dog and helper are (fake) combatants on the "battlefield". The dog know it's not a real fight, but there should be a certain level of challenge and desire to defeat the opponent.

A comparison would be going back to Martial Arts training. A student punching or kicking a pad that his partner is holding would be sort of like operating in prey. When the partner starts to move the pad or block punches then it become a more aggressive form of prey. Sparing between students starts to involve social aggression; even though there is no serious threat, you can still experience minor pain and of course humiliation. One student is challenged by the actions of the other student. Going to a tournament where the student will compete against strangers and try to win a match involves prey and forward aggression as he seeks openings for his moves then executes them; all the while knowing that if he executes poorly or lowers his defenses he'll get hurt and/or loose points. That state of mind is sort of like a dogs Social Aggression or "Fight Drive".

Dogs, like people have different personalities (or temperaments).

Some people enjoy learning Martial Art techniques/forms/Kata's or the spiritual aspect, but dread sparing and have zero interest in competing at a tournament. Those folks may get a thrill from breaking boards or throwing someone twice their size, however they have little or no social aggression/fight drive. Of course, it's all relative, that person may have several times the level of social aggression compared to someone with no Martial Art interest at all, but still have comparatively low social aggression when the standard/benchmark is a competitive fighter. Reality is that the person who is highly skilled at all the moves of his Art but lacks social aggression is incomplete as an "Artist".

Same with dogs. A dog with insufficient social aggression is incomplete. If everyone was responsible, dogs with low social aggression would never be used for breeding. Of course, just like vWD or Hypothyroidism, you MUST test for Social Aggression to find out what's there.

In a perfect world, I want to see the dog channel his "Aggression" towards the helper onto the sleeve ONLY because he's been taught that on the training field he's only allowed to bite the sleeve. It's a fact of life though that good dogs are not stupid and they recognize when something is a game.

You've got to have the genetics, which is a breeding issue. A talented helper is probably the single most valuable "Tool" for evaluating those genetics.

Unfortunately, the number of clubs and available pool of helpers is relatively small. We often end up working with whomever is available even though they may not be as good as we'd like. Personally, I appreciate any helper who'll work with me- you just have to recognize the work for what it is while still being appreciative. Another unfortunate fallout of the small helper pool is many people who don't know better end up thinking their helper is knowledgeable or good, when actually they are barely adequate.

"If there is an afterlife for dogs where they get to do the things they love he ain't off chasing butterflies; he's now some Angel's PPD out there patrolling heavens borders and fighting demons."
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