Obedience- how harsh is too harsh? - Page 2 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #26 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-15-2016, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
So you've tried it on 1 dog and didn't see that reaction and that makes the statement wrong?!? You can disagree but that doesn't make it wrong. I've seen it happen and I've seen it on dogs of all ages, especially ones that have gotten away with murder who now realize they aren't the one in control. On almost all dogs that I've seen they try to back up out of it, they cower and they look at their owners for the first minute and once they concede then they are fine. Of course I still can't fathom going to a class one time and the instructor putting a prong on my dog and giving corrections when the dog hasn't been taught how to do the right in the first place. A dog should know what's expected before being given a correction.

If you would take the time to read what I wrote instead of defending reprehensible training techniques....
I will reiterate. I have used a pinch on Tank and on other dogs I've owned, trained, and trained with. I have never once in 30+ years of training seen a dog shut down or cower when a pinch is used properly. Why? Because the dogs understand what is being asked of them. This is imperative in training the dog must fully understand what is being asked of them in order to up the ante.

I have seen dogs exhibit such behaviours by heavy handed and uneducated people attempting to train (these would be training centres I immediately leave and remove from my list of possible places to train).

There is imo something inherently wrong with thinking training in such a manner is acceptable.

ETA: if you are regularly seeing dogs in your training centre act as such that would to me be concerning. Too many people prefer to take the easy way out when it comes to everything. Putting a pinch on an untrained dog is easy. Taking the time and patience to actually do the work and train the dog isn't always easy. Many people have unreal expectations and there is such a miriad of ability in each class. Dogs do not think in human terms. They don't think oh if I don't listen I can get away with X behaviour. These are likely untrained dogs who simply haven't caught on to the training and instead of adapting training to the individual dog, people become harsh and continue to increase expectation.

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post #27 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-15-2016, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
So you've tried it on 1 dog and didn't see that reaction and that makes the statement wrong?!? You can disagree but that doesn't make it wrong. I've seen it happen and I've seen it on dogs of all ages, especially ones that have gotten away with murder who now realize they aren't the one in control. On almost all dogs that I've seen they try to back up out of it, they cower and they look at their owners for the first minute and once they concede then they are fine. Of course I still can't fathom going to a class one time and the instructor putting a prong on my dog and giving corrections when the dog hasn't been taught how to do the right in the first place. A dog should know what's expected before being given a correction.
Sorry, but I agree with Sieya...no training method should make a dog cower. I know a lot of trainers who use prong collars, e-collars, different methods...they are trainers that are doing it in ways that I can respect, even if it's not how I choose to train, because they have happy, eager dogs - NONE of them have dogs who ever cower from them. It's the trainers who use those tools harshly, in a manner that causes dogs real pain or fear, in my opinion, that gives those tools a bad name. In the same way, clicker trainers who are exceedingly permissive, never have consequences for bad behavior, etc., give positive reinforcement training a bad name.


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post #28 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-15-2016, 01:05 PM
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Sorry, but I agree with Sieya...no training method should make a dog cower. I know a lot of trainers who use prong collars, e-collars, different methods...they are trainers that are doing it in ways that I can respect, even if it's not how I choose to train, because they have happy, eager dogs - NONE of them have dogs who ever cower from them. It's the trainers who use those tools harshly, in a manner that causes dogs real pain or fear, in my opinion, that gives those tools a bad name. In the same way, clicker trainers who are exceedingly permissive, never have consequences for bad behavior, etc., give positive reinforcement training a bad name.
I'm not saying the dogs react like that all the time but almost every dog I've seen, when the pinch collar is first put on and used, they react to it, some dogs back up, some shake their head, some cower, some look at their owners....It's new and it's aversive so I would expect most dogs to react to it the first time. If they keep reacting then I agree that's much too harsh of a punishment and a different technique should be used. Possibly I didn't state that correctly in my first post.

Maybe it's just the dogs I've seen because there's a behavior modification class after my OB class that I sometimes hang out and watch as I'm talking to people.
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post #29 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-15-2016, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
I do want to add as no one mentioned this, that anytime you get an aversive your dog will cower and look at you for help. They realize they are no longer in control and that can be their reaction no matter what the age and it's hard to watch. Although to meet a dog and to put a prong on them is CRAY CRAY!

Prongs are a great technique for correcting bad behaviors or incorrect positions... But it should NEVER bea first go too. The trainer should have taught YOU what was correct and used treats to fix first. I have NEVER had a OB trainer put a prong on my dog or ask me to for OB we've always used treats to fix.

To the person with the remote collar they too are wonderful tools! But that's what it should be a tool. And it scares me that you have a puppy turned up to 25. I keep Gretchen on a 4 for training (just enough to get attn.) and in high prey mode she gets a 10. I hope you aren't using The Educator. If so I doubt you've shocked yourself on 25 without saying "HOLY $HIT!"

Although I personally don't agree with only positive training I would not go back to that facility. IMO winning isn't worth that cost and that method can cause early burnout.

Best of luck
Gretchen, Just out of curiosity how many levels of intensity you remote collar has? 25 is the highest? I have a 127 level Dogtra and I tried it on my self before putting it on Zeus and I didn't feel a thing until 14, so 4 would be way too low at least for the one I have.
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post #30 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-15-2016, 04:50 PM
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Gretchen, Just out of curiosity how many levels of intensity you remote collar has? 25 is the highest? I have a 127 level Dogtra and I tried it on my self before putting it on Zeus and I didn't feel a thing until 14, so 4 would be way too low at least for the one I have.
I have an educator, it goes up to 100. I rarely use it but will for hiking and some off leash OB occasionally. I keep it on 4 bc I don't want to admin. A shock, I want to bring her focus on me. If she's chasing a rabbit in high prey drive then I might boost it to 10. 25 seems crazy to me but all dogs have different levels of pain tolerance I suppose.
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post #31 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-15-2016, 05:21 PM
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I agree, Gretchen...if it's an Educator that's being used at a 25...first off, I don't think it should be used on a puppy, period. My opinion, but...I don't think that's appropriate, at all. I have an Educator for Richter (the mini). I use it at usually a 5 or under. I've used it on myself. If you've trained it properly I can't even imagine needing a level 25...*especially* on a puppy.

Again, this is why I really, really don't recommend e-collars unless you are working with a highly skilled trainer. There are a couple of different ways to train with them. The way MOST people train - punishing the "wrong" choice - isn't the way I train with them and I don't think it's the most effective way to use them. In any case, OP, I think you've been given some good resources.


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post #32 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-18-2016, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
To the person with the remote collar they too are wonderful tools! But that's what it should be a tool. And it scares me that you have a puppy turned up to 25. I keep Gretchen on a 4 for training (just enough to get attn.) and in high prey mode she gets a 10. I hope you aren't using The Educator. If so I doubt you've shocked yourself on 25 without saying "HOLY $HIT!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
I have an educator, it goes up to 100. I rarely use it but will for hiking and some off leash OB occasionally. I keep it on 4 bc I don't want to admin. A shock, I want to bring her focus on me. If she's chasing a rabbit in high prey drive then I might boost it to 10. 25 seems crazy to me but all dogs have different levels of pain tolerance I suppose.
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I agree, Gretchen...if it's an Educator that's being used at a 25...first off, I don't think it should be used on a puppy, period. My opinion, but...I don't think that's appropriate, at all. I have an Educator for Richter (the mini). I use it at usually a 5 or under. I've used it on myself. If you've trained it properly I can't even imagine needing a level 25...*especially* on a puppy.

Again, this is why I really, really don't recommend e-collars unless you are working with a highly skilled trainer. There are a couple of different ways to train with them. The way MOST people train - punishing the "wrong" choice - isn't the way I train with them and I don't think it's the most effective way to use them. In any case, OP, I think you've been given some good resources.
I guess I should be more specific when I refer to how I used this device/tool. I have the Mini Educator 300t and at 25 i'll admit its uncomfortable and hurts on the neck and your muscle gets a good twitch. I only did this because if I am going to use it on my dog I want to know and understand what it feels like so I have compassion and can gauge what he is feeling. (Its easy to say it doesn't hurt your dog if you never tried it on yourself to see what it feels like)

This tool is nothing to take lightly as is any tool you use for training. I did not say its ok to use that high of a number on a puppy, i simply mentioned I have had to go to that range before. (quite frankly I don't even know why there are that many levels in the first place?) However like you stated each dog is different and has tolerances unique to only them. I have used a level 4 on wade and it doesn't even register with him, like the collar doesn't exist. He first notices the collar at an 8, an still happy as can be. I don't know what level of current your Educator puts out but the mini Educator I feel is a weaker model and might have to go higher to reach what yours puts out at a 4? I don't know I would have to use both to determine. We train on a level 8-10 and I rarely even have to use it. I normally give him two attempts to correct himself before using it. Ex. if we are in a heel and walk by another dog and he breaks position I give him a command and a light tug. Usually he looks back up at me and goes right back into position by the second time I say the command. If he doesn't I use the collar on a 8-10 (on the momentary, not constant stimulation setting) to correct him from his distraction. Now we are at the point where I don't even use it and just have it as a precautionary. THE ONLY TIME I've had to use it on a 25 was when he broke off his collar going after a raccoon. I was talking to someone while he was in a sit and then he took off and jerked the leash so hard that the prong on his leather collar buckle bent and the collar snapped off. So now I has a loose puppy in the park running after a raccoon (first time he has ever seen one, also during the day so there could have been something wrong with it) not listening to a word and my remote only goes up to a half mile. So i panicked used it multiple times on 10 until I had to work my way up to 25 and then he realized that this feeling sucks and decided it wasn't worth it and came back.
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post #33 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-18-2016, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by wade.wilson View Post
I guess I should be more specific when I refer to how I used this device/tool. I have the Mini Educator 300t and at 25 i'll admit its uncomfortable and hurts on the neck and your muscle gets a good twitch. I only did this because if I am going to use it on my dog I want to know and understand what it feels like so I have compassion and can gauge what he is feeling. (Its easy to say it doesn't hurt your dog if you never tried it on yourself to see what it feels like)

This tool is nothing to take lightly as is any tool you use for training. I did not say its ok to use that high of a number on a puppy, i simply mentioned I have had to go to that range before. (quite frankly I don't even know why there are that many levels in the first place?) However like you stated each dog is different and has tolerances unique to only them. I have used a level 4 on wade and it doesn't even register with him, like the collar doesn't exist. He first notices the collar at an 8, an still happy as can be. I don't know what level of current your Educator puts out but the mini Educator I feel is a weaker model and might have to go higher to reach what yours puts out at a 4? I don't know I would have to use both to determine. We train on a level 8-10 and I rarely even have to use it. I normally give him two attempts to correct himself before using it. Ex. if we are in a heel and walk by another dog and he breaks position I give him a command and a light tug. Usually he looks back up at me and goes right back into position by the second time I say the command. If he doesn't I use the collar on a 8-10 (on the momentary, not constant stimulation setting) to correct him from his distraction. Now we are at the point where I don't even use it and just have it as a precautionary. THE ONLY TIME I've had to use it on a 25 was when he broke off his collar going after a raccoon. I was talking to someone while he was in a sit and then he took off and jerked the leash so hard that the prong on his leather collar buckle bent and the collar snapped off. So now I has a loose puppy in the park running after a raccoon (first time he has ever seen one, also during the day so there could have been something wrong with it) not listening to a word and my remote only goes up to a half mile. So i panicked used it multiple times on 10 until I had to work my way up to 25 and then he realized that this feeling sucks and decided it wasn't worth it and came back.
I have used my collar on myself, as I won't use something on my dog without knowing what it feels like.

I still, personally, won't use an e-collar on a puppy. I don't think it's fair to correct pups as I don't think any puppy has solid enough training to be corrected for making mistakes. That's just my training philosophy. Richter never had an e-collar on until he was about 2, and that was to fine tune recall for off-leash work after we'd put 2 years of training in.

Again, just my preference on how to train.


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post #34 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-19-2016, 12:58 PM
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A dog should LOVE what he is doing in order for it to excel in it. If its cowering, then he's not loving it. Harsh correction at 6 months old w a prong collar is no no for me and my dogs. Not even medal worthy.
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post #35 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2016, 01:12 PM
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honestly there are a few things that come to mind.

i will be honest, i correct my dogs, and sometimes they get some mega spankings for being bad or stubborn. but my dogs are taught how to take a correction. and sometimes, yup they are gonna look sad. some of my dogs look sad for a living, and no matter what i do, what toys i use or food i use, she looks like a beaten shelter dog that lives outside and is whipped daily, forced to sleep on concrete, and eats only scraps. in reality she sleeps in bed, spends most days lounging on the couch and can barely be bothered to get up for bathroom breaks.

so while my goal is the happiest, most utmost willing dog in the ring, i also have to look and understand that to get there, my dog will be wrong. sometimes a lot. and they may not always look happy, but that we need to trudge on and push through. this doberman i speak of above is probably my toughest to train so far - because she is the laziest dog in the world, and i will tell you, i used to think she was soft. turns out she just figured out that by acting a certain way, i stopped making her work.

a year ago i changed everything in my training for the most part, and while she is still reticent and lazy and i can't take a picture of her that even has her ears up half the time, thats how much she takes the sad alone despondent doberman look, she's working on giving me effort.

the long post has been to some degree, i don't care if in a session the ears went down or the nub wasn't up. did you know in BC's the dog with his tail up when herding is actually the one not thinking? in the end the tail comes up and the ears come up, but sometimes stuff gets hard. competition obedience is a sport of precision, and the road is easy for a rare few who are blessed with superior timing, amazing dogs, and the vision and experience to know exactly what they want and reward only that and accept nothing less.

for me, the journey of obedience has been about how to get through the hard stuff and learn together with the dog, and the dog gains the confidence of understanding they can be wrong, and still be successful in the end. for me, allowing my dog to be stressed has made the ring easier for them - being in the ring is HARD and the higher you move up, the harder it gets - but my dogs know they keep working and things will be ok. its not feasible for everything to always be sunshine flowers and rainbows and even my dog that loves obedience does not love ALL of it - sometimes we just gotta do stuff we don't like. how you deal with that, well, that's how the trainers lay the foundations.


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post #36 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2016, 01:19 PM
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such joy.




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post #37 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2016, 01:42 PM
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Some years back when I first had an interest in IPO we drove 4 hours to watch a training session. This particular "trainer" had a nice looking Shepherd. He laid a track then took his male out of his vehicle, He put a pinch collar and an e-collar both on him. The slightest deviation and he would snatch him spinning with the pinch and then hit him with the e-collar till to dog was screaming. He kept doing this and made the statement that he didn't understand why his dog didn't want to track. We then went back to the field that they were doing their training at. He was working with one of his students and her female didn't do as told. He told her to snatch back on that collar till she lifted her off the ground. She pulled back on the leash then he started yelling choke that bit** choke that bit**. I loaded up in my car and left knowing I would never fit in with that club. Moral of the story. go to a trainer and watch them train other people's dogs before you ever bring yours. It can be difficult to undo the training of others. Anyone can claim to be a trainer.
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post #38 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2016, 02:17 PM
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^ amazing how some people call that 'training'. I call it abuse.
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post #39 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2016, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by doberkim View Post
honestly there are a few things that come to mind.

i will be honest, i correct my dogs, and sometimes they get some mega spankings for being bad or stubborn. but my dogs are taught how to take a correction. and sometimes, yup they are gonna look sad. some of my dogs look sad for a living, and no matter what i do, what toys i use or food i use, she looks like a beaten shelter dog that lives outside and is whipped daily, forced to sleep on concrete, and eats only scraps. in reality she sleeps in bed, spends most days lounging on the couch and can barely be bothered to get up for bathroom breaks.

so while my goal is the happiest, most utmost willing dog in the ring, i also have to look and understand that to get there, my dog will be wrong. sometimes a lot. and they may not always look happy, but that we need to trudge on and push through. this doberman i speak of above is probably my toughest to train so far - because she is the laziest dog in the world, and i will tell you, i used to think she was soft. turns out she just figured out that by acting a certain way, i stopped making her work.

a year ago i changed everything in my training for the most part, and while she is still reticent and lazy and i can't take a picture of her that even has her ears up half the time, thats how much she takes the sad alone despondent doberman look, she's working on giving me effort.

the long post has been to some degree, i don't care if in a session the ears went down or the nub wasn't up. did you know in BC's the dog with his tail up when herding is actually the one not thinking? in the end the tail comes up and the ears come up, but sometimes stuff gets hard. competition obedience is a sport of precision, and the road is easy for a rare few who are blessed with superior timing, amazing dogs, and the vision and experience to know exactly what they want and reward only that and accept nothing less.

for me, the journey of obedience has been about how to get through the hard stuff and learn together with the dog, and the dog gains the confidence of understanding they can be wrong, and still be successful in the end. for me, allowing my dog to be stressed has made the ring easier for them - being in the ring is HARD and the higher you move up, the harder it gets - but my dogs know they keep working and things will be ok. its not feasible for everything to always be sunshine flowers and rainbows and even my dog that loves obedience does not love ALL of it - sometimes we just gotta do stuff we don't like. how you deal with that, well, that's how the trainers lay the foundations.
Kim, I'm curious, and you know I ask this based on what I think you know is mutual respect for our differences in training style. Based on the OP's description of her experience with that trainer (and of course, everything is secondhand), does that seem like a fair way to train a six month old pup? To me, and again, knowing my own bias, it seems pretty harsh with a pup who doesn't seem to have the foundation to understand the mistake. But obviously, I don't compete (nor have the desire to) in high level obedience, so I have no idea. I'm truly asking honestly, as it's not how I train and it's not a discipline I train in (not setting you up in a "trap question" here).


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post #40 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2016, 04:05 PM Thread Starter
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Hi Everyone,
I love reading the discussion on here, as a newbie it's great for me to hear all sides.
I had a long, real talk with the trainer, kind of laying out some of what was said here- and explained that I felt like the first lesson was too much, too fast, too hard for Mac. I told her we had been doing primarily click and treat training, and I was more comfortable with that. I'm ok with moving at a slower pace, as long as we're moving forward; I was expecting to be laughed out of the ring, but she was actually very nice and understanding.
We had a second lesson last night and it went much better. Pup was way less stressed and was able to work for food- the nub even wiggled a few times! I'm still on the fence, and look forward to hearing from others.

My question now is- is a plastic prong at 6 months- used only for OB training- unnecessary?
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post #41 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2016, 04:17 PM
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Glad to hear that's you've discussed things with the trainer.

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Originally Posted by jesseq View Post
My question now is- is a plastic prong at 6 months- used only for OB training- unnecessary?
In my opinion? It's more than likely not necessary.

I only use a prong while out and about on walks, because I absolutely cannot risk being dragged down again. Training is either off leash in the yard, or on a martingale if we are outside the yard.


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post #42 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2016, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jesseq View Post
Hi Everyone,
I love reading the discussion on here, as a newbie it's great for me to hear all sides.
I had a long, real talk with the trainer, kind of laying out some of what was said here- and explained that I felt like the first lesson was too much, too fast, too hard for Mac. I told her we had been doing primarily click and treat training, and I was more comfortable with that. I'm ok with moving at a slower pace, as long as we're moving forward; I was expecting to be laughed out of the ring, but she was actually very nice and understanding.
We had a second lesson last night and it went much better. Pup was way less stressed and was able to work for food- the nub even wiggled a few times! I'm still on the fence, and look forward to hearing from others.

My question now is- is a plastic prong at 6 months- used only for OB training- unnecessary?
I think how you train is personal to you and your dog. It's what you're comfortable doing. I had a prong collar on my bitch at 5mo. She was very well trained but I had a hard time walking her and it was nice to help her listen as well. I use the bigger prongs and they are less correcting than the smaller ones but I tried it on myself before ever putting it on the puppy and felt secure using it.

With my male he's almost 7mo. and I haven't put a prong on him but he's more of a pleaser and he's been responding well to a martingale so I haven't felt the need.

Training should ALWAYS be fun and something the dog looks forward too. That is mastered with treats, praise and giving corrections only when necessary and the dog should view the correction as fair (you'll quickly realize when your dog thinks you're being too harsh). My bitch loves her prong collar, she knows that it means we're either going for a walk or doing training, all of it is fun for her.

Honestly if you're not in a hurry and have no plans of competing I don't really see much of a reason why you need the prong even with the plastic on. If this is something a trainer is pushing on you I still suggest getting another trainer. Aversives should be used as a tool, not something that's relied on every day and should be trained as such.
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post #43 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2016, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
Kim, I'm curious, and you know I ask this based on what I think you know is mutual respect for our differences in training style. Based on the OP's description of her experience with that trainer (and of course, everything is secondhand), does that seem like a fair way to train a six month old pup? To me, and again, knowing my own bias, it seems pretty harsh with a pup who doesn't seem to have the foundation to understand the mistake. But obviously, I don't compete (nor have the desire to) in high level obedience, so I have no idea. I'm truly asking honestly, as it's not how I train and it's not a discipline I train in (not setting you up in a "trap question" here).

i wasn't there so we rely on someone else's report (not saying OP is wrong, but there's an inherent bias) and as a vet my first thing is to never badmouth another vet, so again i hate to badmouth another nameless faceless trainer who isn't here to defend themselves (tho i do think i know who this is)...

i think the operant phrase of what you posted was "who doesn't seem to have the foundation".

so the facts i can state:

1) at 6 months my dogs absolutely can take that correction and more
2) at 6 months my dogs have had approximately 4 months of learning to sit properly
3) at 6 months my dogs have been training for competition purposes for about that 4 months, as well as regular puppy and household stuff
4) my dogs, when learning, have a grace period in which a new behavior doesn't get corrected. once its learned, you gotta do it.
5) i do not hand my dogs off to most people. i can count on one hand the number of people who can "train" my dogs - i let others work on things and play with heeling, etc, but learning and working - that's three people. i even yell at my boyfriend for not doing things right, tho i appreciate his effort
6) some dogs absolutely get corrected from the get go for certain things, but i gotta be there to see it. but some dogs are just buttheads.
7) i wasn't there
8) sometimes for some things, a quick correction to stop something is better than waiting weeks for the right thing to happen to click and treat, IMO. i prefer the quickest path to the right behavior only to prevent practicing the WRONG things.
9) if i don't dwell on the correction, neither will the dog.
10) it's just obedience. there's a relationship underneath that i think is what brings the beautiful harmony out there - when you're working together and just both feeling that groove. but i can be mad at you for something you did, and still love you and let it go. the best corrections aren't ones that we dwell on and worry about - correct and move on. those great trainers i touched on have that - the ability to correct RIGHT THEN IN THE MOMENT and then move on.
11) my method of training with bridget carlsen approaches corrections in a very different way, in terms of manageable and not manageable stress. if i'm going to bring about unmanageable stress in a correction, i will do so in a very specific way in which i maintain attitude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesseq View Post
Hi Everyone,
I love reading the discussion on here, as a newbie it's great for me to hear all sides.
I had a long, real talk with the trainer, kind of laying out some of what was said here- and explained that I felt like the first lesson was too much, too fast, too hard for Mac. I told her we had been doing primarily click and treat training, and I was more comfortable with that. I'm ok with moving at a slower pace, as long as we're moving forward; I was expecting to be laughed out of the ring, but she was actually very nice and understanding.
We had a second lesson last night and it went much better. Pup was way less stressed and was able to work for food- the nub even wiggled a few times! I'm still on the fence, and look forward to hearing from others.

My question now is- is a plastic prong at 6 months- used only for OB training- unnecessary?
it sounds like you brought your concerns to her and were heard, which is great.

as for the prong, i use a regular small metal prong. i don't need to use it all the time, and eventually all my dogs graduate to training with a flat buckle or choke chain or electric or no collar at all depending on what i am working on and where.

but asking people on the internet for their opinions on a prong is like asking what the best food is - its a poop storm waiting to happen. and honestly if you train with someone in person, that is always the person i bring concerns to first. you have to trust your trainer to lead you the right way or find a new trainer.

i don't mean this to sound snotty, but i can't think of a nicer way to say it - i look at people whose dogs show and work the way i want mine to work, and then i see if we mesh. but i won't blindly take advice from people who haven't put their money where their mouth is. and bad trainers are bad trainers, whether they are using clickers or prongs. just because you are using a clicker and food doesn't mean you are being nicer to your dog - I've seen some bad positive trainers whose dogs were so frustrated and confused, and literally with one little NRM or correction weeks of confusion could be avoided. like i said, successful trainers are ones that have great timing, a view of what they want in their head and accept nothing less and know how to work to make that happen instead of practicing wrong behaviors. those things apply whether its a prong or a clicker.


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post #44 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-21-2016, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doberkim View Post
i wasn't there so we rely on someone else's report (not saying OP is wrong, but there's an inherent bias) and as a vet my first thing is to never badmouth another vet, so again i hate to badmouth another nameless faceless trainer who isn't here to defend themselves (tho i do think i know who this is)...

i think the operant phrase of what you posted was "who doesn't seem to have the foundation".

so the facts i can state:

1) at 6 months my dogs absolutely can take that correction and more
2) at 6 months my dogs have had approximately 4 months of learning to sit properly
3) at 6 months my dogs have been training for competition purposes for about that 4 months, as well as regular puppy and household stuff
4) my dogs, when learning, have a grace period in which a new behavior doesn't get corrected. once its learned, you gotta do it.
5) i do not hand my dogs off to most people. i can count on one hand the number of people who can "train" my dogs - i let others work on things and play with heeling, etc, but learning and working - that's three people. i even yell at my boyfriend for not doing things right, tho i appreciate his effort
6) some dogs absolutely get corrected from the get go for certain things, but i gotta be there to see it. but some dogs are just buttheads.
7) i wasn't there
8) sometimes for some things, a quick correction to stop something is better than waiting weeks for the right thing to happen to click and treat, IMO. i prefer the quickest path to the right behavior only to prevent practicing the WRONG things.
9) if i don't dwell on the correction, neither will the dog.
10) it's just obedience. there's a relationship underneath that i think is what brings the beautiful harmony out there - when you're working together and just both feeling that groove. but i can be mad at you for something you did, and still love you and let it go. the best corrections aren't ones that we dwell on and worry about - correct and move on. those great trainers i touched on have that - the ability to correct RIGHT THEN IN THE MOMENT and then move on.
11) my method of training with bridget carlsen approaches corrections in a very different way, in terms of manageable and not manageable stress. if i'm going to bring about unmanageable stress in a correction, i will do so in a very specific way in which i maintain attitude.



it sounds like you brought your concerns to her and were heard, which is great.

as for the prong, i use a regular small metal prong. i don't need to use it all the time, and eventually all my dogs graduate to training with a flat buckle or choke chain or electric or no collar at all depending on what i am working on and where.

but asking people on the internet for their opinions on a prong is like asking what the best food is - its a poop storm waiting to happen. and honestly if you train with someone in person, that is always the person i bring concerns to first. you have to trust your trainer to lead you the right way or find a new trainer.

i don't mean this to sound snotty, but i can't think of a nicer way to say it - i look at people whose dogs show and work the way i want mine to work, and then i see if we mesh. but i won't blindly take advice from people who haven't put their money where their mouth is. and bad trainers are bad trainers, whether they are using clickers or prongs. just because you are using a clicker and food doesn't mean you are being nicer to your dog - I've seen some bad positive trainers whose dogs were so frustrated and confused, and literally with one little NRM or correction weeks of confusion could be avoided. like i said, successful trainers are ones that have great timing, a view of what they want in their head and accept nothing less and know how to work to make that happen instead of practicing wrong behaviors. those things apply whether its a prong or a clicker.
Thanks, Kim. I always appreciate reading your posts. OP, Kim makes a great point about talking to trainers in person (as you did), finding what YOU are comfortable with and achieving what you want to do, etc etc. I can't tell you how valuable it is to find great trainers who are going to be "boots on the ground" for you. And we all certainly have different goals and different timelines for achieving them.

I wish you all the best in your journey with your boy! It's awesome to see someone out there doing stuff with their dog!


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post #45 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-24-2016, 01:10 PM
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I guess I should be more specific when I refer to how I used this device/tool. I have the Mini Educator 300t and at 25 i'll admit its uncomfortable and hurts on the neck and your muscle gets a good twitch. I only did this because if I am going to use it on my dog I want to know and understand what it feels like so I have compassion and can gauge what he is feeling. (Its easy to say it doesn't hurt your dog if you never tried it on yourself to see what it feels like)

This tool is nothing to take lightly as is any tool you use for training. I did not say its ok to use that high of a number on a puppy, i simply mentioned I have had to go to that range before. (quite frankly I don't even know why there are that many levels in the first place?) However like you stated each dog is different and has tolerances unique to only them. I have used a level 4 on wade and it doesn't even register with him, like the collar doesn't exist. He first notices the collar at an 8, an still happy as can be. I don't know what level of current your Educator puts out but the mini Educator I feel is a weaker model and might have to go higher to reach what yours puts out at a 4? I don't know I would have to use both to determine. We train on a level 8-10 and I rarely even have to use it. I normally give him two attempts to correct himself before using it. Ex. if we are in a heel and walk by another dog and he breaks position I give him a command and a light tug. Usually he looks back up at me and goes right back into position by the second time I say the command. If he doesn't I use the collar on a 8-10 (on the momentary, not constant stimulation setting) to correct him from his distraction.
Yes you sort of answered your own question. There are differences in different dogs with different needs. My first collar was a Dogtra with levels from 1-127, the second was a sport dog with 7 levels. I have used the dual receiver Einstein (educator 800) for several years. There can be a huge difference between dogs and in the protocol for training. Ultra-low level Stimulations in a Ne-Po-Po system has a different purpose than a major correction to immediately block unwanted behavior in a dog who has been properly trained, and is deciding to flip you the bird in an exercise they have been proofed and secured in (has demonstrated they absolutely know an exercise under extreme distraction). It is also different depending on the drive a dog is in. For example Cairo in OB work generally has low Stims in a range of about 7-11, and a correction boost of about 15. In protection the low Stimson are at 12-15 with a correction boost of about 20 or more. Sometimes much higher. At the same time I have seen some GSD,s where the button in certain circumstance have had to be turned up all the way for a correction to have an effect.
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