Obedience without aversives - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-15-2016, 05:45 PM Thread Starter
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Obedience without aversives

I found this post today and thought it was excellent. While it doesn't go into much detail, I found it did an excellent job at highlighting the "why" of force-free training.

Why I No Longer Call Myself A Balanced Obedience Trainer
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post #2 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-16-2016, 07:41 AM
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It is hard being in this breed and being force-free because Dobermans have such a reputation for being stubborn and challenging, but I have trained my Achilles using purely positive methods and he earned his Communit Canine title at 18 mos old. Then I got very ill and we admittedly haven't done much since but his training has stuck well. He is safe, sane, and steady and I hope to make him my service dog. (which is another area in which the prong rules, so we are sure to get comments)

Nice article! Thanks for sharing.
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post #3 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-16-2016, 12:47 PM
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I wanted to read the article thoroughly before responding.

1. It was a nice article with many things that I also agree on.

2. This particular person and who she speaks about didn't/doesn't work with high prey and highly alert animals. I could dispense treats until the cows come home but if my dogs see a rabbit/squirrel/danger... They are gone! Put a steak out if you want. So it makes me discredit this article a bit.

3. I would love to hear from fellow dobe or other working owners that are actively competitive in AKC OB and get their input though if they don't use compulsion bc I'm new and always looking to learn. In fact I watched OB Dobes at west minster and friended a few on FB. Who doesn't like to follow a good mentor or 2 or 3 or 10 lol.

4. I would also love to know the average age of the dogs competing in OB and earning high scores. I know many people thought G was so young to be earning the high scores that she did. She's not two and we finished our Rally excellent with only one score under 90 and that was a 88 (cheated bc the judge said she didn't speed up for the fast and my instructor argues with her bc I could be sprinting and G doesn't need to run). But I know I put a lot of pressure on a young dog who would have perhaps been even better had we competed at the right age. It's crazy how much better their focus gets on you as they get older. I don't always think newbies know the competition is much older than they think?

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post #4 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-16-2016, 05:55 PM
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Here are the AKC stats for three of her dogs, if you're interested.
Dog Show Scores Database | Dog DN27997202
Dog Show Scores Database | Dog DN01587101
Dog Show Scores Database | Dog DL54706503

And there ARE people who work with and train high drive dogs force-free, in both AKC and in bitesports.

Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - Hannah Branigan
Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - Deborah Jones
Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - Shade Whitesel
Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - Julie Symons


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post #5 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-16-2016, 07:24 PM
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Local gu just put ipo1 on his shepherd without using any advertise methods.
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post #6 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-16-2016, 07:38 PM
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Local gu just put ipo1 on his shepherd without using any advertise methods.
I know of a guy doing PSA without aversive training.
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post #7 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-17-2016, 04:36 AM Thread Starter
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Rosemary, thank you for the links. Wow, it's impressive to see Laura Romanik's scores. She's obviously a very accomplished trainer and it's always nice to see people like that willing to share their techniques to help others.

And the list of working/bite sport force-free trainers you provided is also great. I would add Dave Kroyer to that list (although he doesn't offer training through Fenzi).

I did miss out on Shade Whitesel's recent "Intro to IPO tracking" and I'm still a little upset. When I emailed Shade a month or so ago she mentioned that interest in that class has declined so she didn't know when she'd be offering it again. As she lightheartedly said, "[all 11 people who are interested in force-free IPO have already taken it.]" But she hope that interest in that class would rise again once her young dog started competing this Spring.
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post #8 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-18-2016, 11:31 AM
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I really appreciated the very thoughtful article. It wasn't preachy, just a realistic look at training choices and how they affect your dog. She reminds me a bit of Denise Fenzi.

I think a lot of us who train using positive methods try hard to push the message that positive does not mean permissive. And I may not even "count" in the positive training camp, as after a very long, thoughtful evaluation (and two years of recall training), I did make the choice to use very low level e-collar use on Richter for recall for off-leash use (thought not in the typical positive punishment way, but I don't want to derail the conversation here). It finally came down to whether we'd continue to be able to go off-leash (which he really needed) or not, and it was a really hard decision for me. I was well aware of the potential fall out, but I knew my dog very well, researched trainers extremely carefully, etc. He continues to be thrilled to go off-leash, and it was the right decision there.

I continue to use positive reinforcement for every sport we do. I guess, for me, I'll trade lower scores or slower progress for a really, really joyful performance, for a dog that is crazy happy to do these activities with me. My particular dog works well using these techniques.

*However...I want to be clear....the more I learn about training, the less I want to judge other people, PROVIDED their dog is happy to work with them. I think most of us know how to see a dog that is happy and engaged with their human. I can say what works for me, and how I want to train. I hope that other people use more and more positive reinforcement techniques. I think they work really well. But I'm not jumping down anyone's throat if they aren't hurting their dog. If their dog is happy and engaged in training, I'm not interested in fighting between trainer "camps." The more we divide ourselves, the less we're willing to talk to each other...that's just a loss. Just my opinion.


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post #9 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-25-2016, 07:44 AM
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everyone is free to train how they want. i do use corrections, but i am also very happy with our performances, and the parts i am not happy with i continue to work. i have seen this person compete and while they are technically correct, they aren't my goal in performance - i want more from my dogs. i want joy and flair.

i find good trainers, really good ones, can be successful with any method they choose (Especially with the right dog), because they are precisely that - GOOD trainers.
1) They can read dogs
2) they have the right dogs
3) they have great timing
4) i mean, REALLY REALLY great timing.

lesser trainers get stuck in the moment thinking how they should respond, what they should be doing or not doing, correcting or rewarding, etc - and the lesson gets mudded. good trainers do this as a second nature and its done and over. they can let go of emotion, or bring the correct emotion. i admire a trainer that can truly be honest with their dogs about when happy (TRUE, not fake happiness - dogs can tell) - just as much as i admire a trainer who is honest when their dog is wrong.

for me, i train how i want to train, with the trainers i want to train with and whose dogs i want my own to emulate. and in the end how someone else trains matters little to me - i'll see you all in the ring while i doubt we will be at the 2017 NOC since both of mine aren't yet eligible, i will be at 2018 come hell or high water!!!
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post #10 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-25-2016, 02:31 PM Thread Starter
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doberkim, thanks for the response. I just want to make sure that you or anyone else doesn't think the reason I created this thread was to lecture to anyone who wants to use corrections. Like you said, they're your dogs and you'll train them your way. As long as they aren't being tortured or neglected I believe you should have the freedom to train the way you want to.

However, having said that, it's a two way street. As long as you realize that yours isn't the only way then we're good. I do completely agree with your list of 4 things that good trainers have.

I have a question for you. In your signature you have the line "more beatings, less love!". Can you explain what you mean by that?
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post #11 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-25-2016, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
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I really appreciated the very thoughtful article. It wasn't preachy, just a realistic look at training choices and how they affect your dog. She reminds me a bit of Denise Fenzi.

I think a lot of us who train using positive methods try hard to push the message that positive does not mean permissive. And I may not even "count" in the positive training camp, as after a very long, thoughtful evaluation (and two years of recall training), I did make the choice to use very low level e-collar use on Richter for recall for off-leash use (thought not in the typical positive punishment way, but I don't want to derail the conversation here). It finally came down to whether we'd continue to be able to go off-leash (which he really needed) or not, and it was a really hard decision for me. I was well aware of the potential fall out, but I knew my dog very well, researched trainers extremely carefully, etc. He continues to be thrilled to go off-leash, and it was the right decision there.

I continue to use positive reinforcement for every sport we do. I guess, for me, I'll trade lower scores or slower progress for a really, really joyful performance, for a dog that is crazy happy to do these activities with me. My particular dog works well using these techniques.

*However...I want to be clear....the more I learn about training, the less I want to judge other people, PROVIDED their dog is happy to work with them. I think most of us know how to see a dog that is happy and engaged with their human. I can say what works for me, and how I want to train. I hope that other people use more and more positive reinforcement techniques. I think they work really well. But I'm not jumping down anyone's throat if they aren't hurting their dog. If their dog is happy and engaged in training, I'm not interested in fighting between trainer "camps." The more we divide ourselves, the less we're willing to talk to each other...that's just a loss. Just my opinion.
WoW! I wasn't expecting you to say something like this, although I should have because your advice is always so well thought out.

I haven't had the amount of training and years that you have but I agree! As I try to do as much positive methods as I possibly can we both know I will use compulsion but trying to do it less and less. I'm going to hold off on using it on Maverick for as long as our relationship is successful and happy. So far so good, but I have been training him more and using different methods to see what makes him tick to the beat of my drum. I've also accepted that somedays their puppy brain just isn't into it and learning to laugh at some of his mischief. I try to not judge the way others train but when you see a dog with a prong AND an e-collar on it's really hard to bite your tongue.

I'm also starting to (or trying) become ok with training taking more time and diligence using more positive methods. I now see why people say compulsion is the fast/easy way out (although I'm ok with people taking the fast/easy way out because not everyone has or wants to devote the time to their dogs like I do). What I know now and didn't know then is that "responsiveness, willingness to please, and attention all seem to get better with age (and loads of practice)". I always wondered why people commented on how young Gretchen was to be in the obedience ring and now I know why. Our bond just keeps on growing and our scores just keep on getting higher and she's not quite 2 yet!

The one issue that I have seen with compulsion training is that (with Gretchen at least) I feel that sometimes her personality is inhibited. Sometimes I think it's due to thinking "will doing this get me in trouble, or if I don't do this will I get in trouble" and sometimes I think she doesn't even think about somethings because it's just habit now for her to comply. I'm grateful she's such a good girl but knowing that it came about as a result of her losing some of her personality makes me a bit sad. I now spend time trying to bring out more of that personality that I think I pushed in when she was a puppy. Live and learn, that's why we're here right?

But like you said, if the dog's happy and wanting to work who are we to judge how others train(as long as it's not abuse)?
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post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-25-2016, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
WoW! I wasn't expecting you to say something like this, although I should have because your advice is always so well thought out.

I haven't had the amount of training and years that you have but I agree! As I try to do as much positive methods as I possibly can we both know I will use compulsion but trying to do it less and less. I'm going to hold off on using it on Maverick for as long as our relationship is successful and happy. So far so good, but I have been training him more and using different methods to see what makes him tick to the beat of my drum. I've also accepted that somedays their puppy brain just isn't into it and learning to laugh at some of his mischief. I try to not judge the way others train but when you see a dog with a prong AND an e-collar on it's really hard to bite your tongue.

I'm also starting to (or trying) become ok with training taking more time and diligence using more positive methods. I now see why people say compulsion is the fast/easy way out (although I'm ok with people taking the fast/easy way out because not everyone has or wants to devote the time to their dogs like I do). What I know now and didn't know then is that "responsiveness, willingness to please, and attention all seem to get better with age (and loads of practice)". I always wondered why people commented on how young Gretchen was to be in the obedience ring and now I know why. Our bond just keeps on growing and our scores just keep on getting higher and she's not quite 2 yet!

The one issue that I have seen with compulsion training is that (with Gretchen at least) I feel that sometimes her personality is inhibited. Sometimes I think it's due to thinking "will doing this get me in trouble, or if I don't do this will I get in trouble" and sometimes I think she doesn't even think about somethings because it's just habit now for her to comply. I'm grateful she's such a good girl but knowing that it came about as a result of her losing some of her personality makes me a bit sad. I now spend time trying to bring out more of that personality that I think I pushed in when she was a puppy. Live and learn, that's why we're here right?

But like you said, if the dog's happy and wanting to work who are we to judge how others train(as long as it's not abuse)?
You learn something with each dog, and if you aren't constantly learning as a trainer, you need to do something different

I remind myself that each dog is a different dog, each dog learns things differently and each dog and task is a new challenge. I'm finding it really fun to work with Sypha and find out what motivates her, what she's good at, what's harder for her (and what I have to change to help her learn), etc.

As an example, she's already coming along with a pretty nice little heel, and I really wasn't trying to teach that, just a nice loose leash walk. She happened to be SUPER motivated by my reward, my timing is pretty good, and she naturally had decent positioning. It's super joyful for me to watch her working on this, and we're not even working on competition obedience, so I'm not going for any sort of precision, but she's already making enormous progress on some really great loose leash walking for her age.

On the other hand, it took a bit longer to start teaching her to back up (an agility foundation skill). Once it clicked for her, (and she literally got clicked), we started making more progress, but it took me several different methods to get that first success. All just different positive luring type positions, but I had to think differently.

She has different strengths and weaknesses than Richter does. She's her own "self" and she and I will have a different journey than Richter. She will have different training needs than her brothers and sisters. I can't compare her to them, expecting her to progress at the same speed. I can't compare her to the other puppies in her foundations class, either. They all learn different skills at different ages, different things are easier or harder for different dogs. For me, it's the journey together and figuring out how to work together best as a team. Seeing her excitement for learning is SO worth it.

I will never make a choice for one of my dogs that will damage our relationship, and no good trainers I know do that, regardless of the methods they use. I've "known" doberkim online for years, and I see the joy her dogs have working with her. She's a great trainer. I know the choices she makes in training are sound choices for her and her dogs. It's easy to see when you see them work together.


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post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-25-2016, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by engstrom View Post
doberkim, thanks for the response. I just want to make sure that you or anyone else doesn't think the reason I created this thread was to lecture to anyone who wants to use corrections. Like you said, they're your dogs and you'll train them your way. As long as they aren't being tortured or neglected I believe you should have the freedom to train the way you want to.

However, having said that, it's a two way street. As long as you realize that yours isn't the only way then we're good. I do completely agree with your list of 4 things that good trainers have.

I have a question for you. In your signature you have the line "more beatings, less love!". Can you explain what you mean by that?
oh no, i don't feel lectured at all. in fact, the best thing i ever did long ago was stop worrying about anyone else but my own dogs (at least in this respect - in my real life i have to care a lot more than most people do about their animals, so there's only so much i can care!) and again, it's going to depend on what people are aiming for, what people are willing to do, able to do, etc.

the more beatings less love was actually a joke from years and years ago that i haven't ever taken off - i think my signature even links to my blog i haven't posted to in forever. i don't actually beat them... much

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I'm also starting to (or trying) become ok with training taking more time and diligence using more positive methods. I now see why people say compulsion is the fast/easy way out (although I'm ok with people taking the fast/easy way out because not everyone has or wants to devote the time to their dogs like I do). What I know now and didn't know then is that "responsiveness, willingness to please, and attention all seem to get better with age (and loads of practice)". I always wondered why people commented on how young Gretchen was to be in the obedience ring and now I know why. Our bond just keeps on growing and our scores just keep on getting higher and she's not quite 2 yet!

The one issue that I have seen with compulsion training is that (with Gretchen at least) I feel that sometimes her personality is inhibited. Sometimes I think it's due to thinking "will doing this get me in trouble, or if I don't do this will I get in trouble" and sometimes I think she doesn't even think about somethings because it's just habit now for her to comply. I'm grateful she's such a good girl but knowing that it came about as a result of her losing some of her personality makes me a bit sad. I now spend time trying to bring out more of that personality that I think I pushed in when she was a puppy. Live and learn, that's why we're here right?

But like you said, if the dog's happy and wanting to work who are we to judge how others train(as long as it's not abuse)?
for me, i don't see the inhibition as a compulsion issue - i see this in positive trained dogs all the time too - in fact, i can see it in a lot of FDSA trained dogs (i mention this only because i see a lot of those dogs, since its popular in this area, and i have taken FDSA classes). inhibited dogs are confused dogs.

a dog who is conflicted and thinks they have a option and want to do the wrong thing, will look the same as an "inhibited" dog in some ways. some dogs just look like that. anyone who is Facebook friends with me, or has ever met cherry in real life, knows that she is the epitome of Eeyore. literally, this dog doesn't even want to go outside to go to the bathroom most days - forget train or show. i literally have to push her off the couch. she lives with her ears back and gigantic eyes, and for all i know most of you just may think i beat the crap out of her repeatedly. fact is, that's who she is 90% of the time. and i fed into it repeatedly for years, and that's the dog i got in the ring. but she CAN do more, and give more.

yes correcting my dogs can be faster or easier, but only because i simply do not let my dogs practice being wrong. i don't let you think its an option to walk in the ring and look away - i don't let you think there's an option that when i walk over to set up for something that you stand and stare at me. just like if you do a crooked front, i am definitely going to tell you "nope!" (that's exactly what i say - that's their front correction) - you front crooked a second time and i will bring a foot out and tap the wrong side, but i will at the same time then help you be right so there isn't a THIRD correction, and you earn your reward. more than anything, my dogs are corrected for lack of effort, and rewarded for effort. it's a very precise sort of training that hails back to one particular trainer (bridget carlsen) and it's been a COMPLETE game changer for me - with both dogs.

bridget's method has taught me HOW to correct my dogs (i did prior, but it has changed now somewhat). but i will also say that i have some of the most operant dogs as well - they aren't afraid to be wrong. if anything, they know i will tell them exactly when they are right and wrong - they trust me in this working relationship. and they aren't afraid to offer, they aren't afraid to try. yesterday i had the clicker, one piece of string cheese, and in 5 minutes had shaped a new behavior with chill i will need for herding - something that literally goes against EVERYTHING he has ever been taught in obedience (run in a curved line, not straight). i taught cherry a behavior in 1 minute that i was able to debut at a show IN THE RING the next day. my dogs know what works and what pays.

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I will never make a choice for one of my dogs that will damage our relationship, and no good trainers I know do that, regardless of the methods they use. I've "known" doberkim online for years, and I see the joy her dogs have working with her. She's a great trainer. I know the choices she makes in training are sound choices for her and her dogs. It's easy to see when you see them work together.

thanks

tho we will all be honest, cherry has very little joy in most of what she does with obedience - she's just waiting for retirement

her demeanor is what I've been working the past year to change - because i've never been able to bring the dog i have in training SOMETIMES, into the ring EVER. so now i have to make sure i have that dog ALL THE TIME in training, no ifs ands or buts. the last time i showed her, i don't even know if i shared the video, but i was super happy with the fact that she did hand touches in the ring AND anticipated an exercise (TWICE) - even though she also failed two exercises. my wonderful trainer/breeder/friend has been a huge help, and then also working extensively with bridget has really changed everything for us.


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post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-25-2016, 10:49 PM Thread Starter
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doberkim, MeadowCat. This is not how the discussion goes. It's flying in the face of years of finger-pointing and accusation and if it doesn't devolve into name-calling soon I'm going to ask a moderator to close this thread!!!

Seriously though, thanks for the explanations and well thought-out and communicated replied juxtaposed with a dose of respect. I come to this forum to learn and every post in this thread has given me plenty to think about.

doberkim, where do you draw the line on corrections in training? You mentioned using a verbal "nope" and a tap on the side so do you draw the line at causing physical pain? Or is emotional distress the litmus test for corrections? I'm genuinely trying to figure out what you do because I'm constantly looking to learn.
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post #15 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-26-2016, 07:33 AM
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what i do really depends on the situation. my dogs are for starters, all conditioned to an e-collar that we use for hiking and perfecting recalls. I've rarely used it in obedience, but it can be and others do for a less emotional correction. they also can wear pinch collars or show leads, though we often train with no collar on at all or just a flat collar. my dogs are also used to me putting my hands on them - grabbing them, the collar, etc. for both play and correction. i will use collar pops. but again, i will be honest with my dogs - my correction escalates depending on how wrong they were and how many times they have been wrong. first time may just be a verbal, second may be a stronger verbal, third may be a collar pop, etc. but almost EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. my dogs get a correction they immediately give effort to earn a reward. the heaviest correction my dogs will get is actually for chill, my border collie - who builds a TON in the ring and will put teeth on me - teeth on me in training gets immediate correction - it so rarely happens because its hard to recreate for him. these pics below are him herding me on heeling at the classic!
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post #16 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-26-2016, 09:12 AM
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My friend Sara has a good blog post on this topic (being able to *talk* to each other about how we train). I agree with a lot of what she says (although, for the record, she and I disagree about the brief mention of ear cropping at the end of her post...and yet, we are still friends...imagine that!).

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post #17 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-26-2016, 11:55 AM
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110 % agree. how we all train things doesn't have to be the same - everyone makes choices based on where they are in their life, what their goals are, the dogs they have, and their past experiences. I'm more concerned about saving the sport i love and meeting people who love the precision and beauty of obedience more than i care about arguing about semantics, tiny differences we may have, etc.


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post #18 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-26-2016, 09:03 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the article, it's refreshing to see a trainer that's able to view things from other perspectives. And that's somewhat ironic because one of the keys to being a good trainer is to be able to see things from the dog's perspective. And at the end she did touch on one of my hot spots - the use of lethal force on dogs by police...but that's a topic for a different thread.

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I'm more concerned about saving the sport i love and meeting people who love the precision and beauty of obedience more than i care about arguing about semantics, tiny differences we may have, etc.
Doberkim, what do you see as the reason(s) obedience needs saving? Pressure from Agility/Rally decreasing participation? Something else?
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post #19 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-26-2016, 09:47 PM
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Doberkim, what do you see as the reason(s) obedience needs saving? Pressure from Agility/Rally decreasing participation? Something else?
variety of reasons -

1) up until new classes have been introduced in the past few years, and the preferred (old pre) track opened up to introduce the POC, the obedience championship has been one that unlike the MACH, is based purely on your ability to beat other people. dogs can obtain an agility championship simply being consistent - may take more time - but they do NOT have to win a single class. the OTCH requires three wins, and for most classes except for exceptionally large shows, require 1st or 2nd places to get points, especially out of open. the UDX rewards consistency in qualifying both classes on the same day, but again you don't have to do anything but Q - no score/win requirement.

2) obedience to some degree is NOT progressive in skill set difficulty, so many people start out but do not progress. literally, utility has virtually NO similarity to any other class, and nothing in open or novice really prepares you for most of what happens in utility. its ok for some, but for others, its MUCH harder to just get to utility and "wing it".

3) obedience has fallen under the rule of the breed ring, NOT like other performance sports. obedience rules defer to the breed rules - which has been why there has been different behaviors and stupid rules (like a judge cant hold a dogs leash that isn't theirs, which has now been changed), no wait list, etc. no one scores your tracking dog for mouthing an article, no one scores your dogs alert in nose work, etc.

4) obedience unlike almost any sport, rewards absolute perfection. no one scores your dogs ability to hit perfect contacts, or if you say they have a 2o/2o, how well they hold it, or how long, or if they do an early release. no one scores you if your agility dog breaks a start line stay. obedience is about whose dog has a hair out of place resulting in a crooked front, etc.

5) in that same thread, the perfection is also in the eye of the beholder - you are scored against a perfect performance in that judges head, so what is a 195 in one judges eyes may be a 199 in another. it's their picture of perfection you have to match, and some dogs are going to be more one judges type than another.

6) obedience happens slow enough that you get a lot of outside the ring judging - there's a lot of sitting and watching and people staring and tearing apart a run, and critiques on what they thought the run should have scored, etc - some not knowing (or caring?) that the view of the judge is much different than that outside the ring, or even that from a different corner of the ring. judges can only score what they see.

7) any dog sport is becoming a luxury - and when the sport is presented as a stuffy stuck up sport where people want to show in a vacuum and want no noise, no distraction, no one near the ring, etc. we talk about how it appears to the mythical family of 4, but no one actually wants a family with KIDS near the ring... in short, people started blaming everything but their training for their failures. i love busy trials, i don't like showing in one ring quiet trials with no observers - give me 4 rings in an arena, give me a huge trial associated with a breed show... give me real distraction! these are learning opportunities, not gifts and accidental q's!

i could go on and on...
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post #20 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-27-2016, 09:55 AM
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One thing that annoys me about OB in AKC is that bitches in heat can't show and to get your money back you have to pay a vet $60 (or more) to say your bitch is in heat. So basically they steal your money or you have to try to guess when your bitch will be in heat and not register for shows around then. Meanwhile, the ring next to yours is showing conformation with bitches, not only in heat, but wearing nothing. Just have the bitches show last like they do in other sports or give a bitch a twice a year freebie to get their money back.

I found this article very interesting. Although one thing I ALWAYS tend to notice with positive methods is that it's always the border collie/shepherds/labs and not working breeds. It's hard for me to take this stuff completely serious if they aren't working with breeds that I consider to have strong prey drives and alertness. I often view training puppies like children, some children need a lot more affection and they strive off positive rewards but their are some children that do well under positive but sometimes need a spanking or a punishment. Although I want to do a majority of positive training, I also know that may not be enough.

https://pethelpful.com/dogs/A-New-St...Train-Our-Dogs
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post #21 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-27-2016, 10:09 AM
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Um... anyone who thinks that Border Collies, GSD, and/or Labradors are not "working breeds" has obviously never worked with them.

And the "must offer a refund for bitches that come into season after entries close" is new within the past couple of years. Used to be, they didn't have to offer a refund. Even showing them last in a class, would you like to have your intact (or heck, even neutered) male be more interested in tracking her scent around the ring than heeling in the next class? If bitches in season are allowed to foul the ring with vaginal discharge, you might as well let dogs mark in the ring and people to leave bits of bait all over the place.


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Um... anyone who thinks that Border Collies, GSD, and/or Labradors are not "working breeds" has obviously never worked with them.

And the "must offer a refund for bitches that come into season after entries close" is new within the past couple of years. Used to be, they didn't have to offer a refund. Even showing them last in a class, would you like to have your intact (or heck, even neutered) male be more interested in tracking her scent around the ring than heeling in the next class? If bitches in season are allowed to foul the ring with vaginal discharge, you might as well let dogs mark in the ring and people to leave bits of bait all over the place.
You can feel however you want about the breeds but the facts are they aren't a working breed and their brains function much differently. Even in doberkims videos you can see a HUGE difference in attention alone from the 2 different breeds she posted. It's just my opinion that some breeds are more respondent to positive training than others. My sheltie never needed a correction ever, her attention was always on me naturally.

A bitch doesn't have to "foul up a ring with vaginal discharge" they do have diapers and underwear for them to wear. Often times, here in CO anyways, we are ring to ring with conformation where bitches aren't wearing panties, so I don't see any difference. the odor's in the air either way. It doesn't seem to affect barn hunt, or Sch., or other sports where a dog has to do a job. It's just my opinion that AKC should either refund your money, or allow them to compete.
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Yeah, Chill is more attentive. He's got a lot more drive and overall "work ethic" than Cherry does. He's the one who thinks that heeling is a contact sport, involving teeth. Namely, his teeth.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
One thing that annoys me about OB in AKC is that bitches in heat can't show and to get your money back you have to pay a vet $60 (or more) to say your bitch is in heat. So basically they steal your money or you have to try to guess when your bitch will be in heat and not register for shows around then. Meanwhile, the ring next to yours is showing conformation with bitches, not only in heat, but wearing nothing. Just have the bitches show last like they do in other sports or give a bitch a twice a year freebie to get their money back.

I found this article very interesting. Although one thing I ALWAYS tend to notice with positive methods is that it's always the border collie/shepherds/labs and not working breeds. It's hard for me to take this stuff completely serious if they aren't working with breeds that I consider to have strong prey drives and alertness. I often view training puppies like children, some children need a lot more affection and they strive off positive rewards but their are some children that do well under positive but sometimes need a spanking or a punishment. Although I want to do a majority of positive training, I also know that may not be enough.

https://pethelpful.com/dogs/A-New-St...Train-Our-Dogs
I have to disagree that it has anything to do with breed. Any breed can be trained using any method, provided the trainer is very skilled. Working breeds can be just as successful using clicker training as other breeds. It's really just a matter of what the trainer wants to use, and how good they are at using that method.

Additionally, I think we all need to remember that our dogs decide what is aversive, not us. For example, Richter finds it quite aversive if we do the same exercise too many times in a row in agility...he's pretty sensitive, and he starts to think that he's wrong, and will begin to shut down. I have to be very careful to be really positive if we're going to be too repetitive with an exercise, because for HIM that is aversive. On the other hand, he doesn't find a prong collar aversive (note, I don't use one on him, though he has had one on at one point - he couldn't have cared less...). Many dogs find head collars quite aversive, even though they are not supposed to be. Each dog is different. For some, a verbal "uh uh" is quite aversive. For others, that's nothing. We can't generalize what's positive or what's aversive...each dog decides.


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post #25 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-27-2016, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
One thing that annoys me about OB in AKC is that bitches in heat can't show and to get your money back you have to pay a vet $60 (or more) to say your bitch is in heat. So basically they steal your money or you have to try to guess when your bitch will be in heat and not register for shows around then. Meanwhile, the ring next to yours is showing conformation with bitches, not only in heat, but wearing nothing. Just have the bitches show last like they do in other sports or give a bitch a twice a year freebie to get their money back.

I found this article very interesting. Although one thing I ALWAYS tend to notice with positive methods is that it's always the border collie/shepherds/labs and not working breeds. It's hard for me to take this stuff completely serious if they aren't working with breeds that I consider to have strong prey drives and alertness. I often view training puppies like children, some children need a lot more affection and they strive off positive rewards but their are some children that do well under positive but sometimes need a spanking or a punishment. Although I want to do a majority of positive training, I also know that may not be enough.

https://pethelpful.com/dogs/A-New-St...Train-Our-Dogs
Oh i agree - personally for me i don't have a problem with intact bitches showing during heat, they can show last for all i care. in UDC i've shown with intact bitches in heat and I volunteered to put my male next to them since the intact males didn't want to (this was rah). true story, berlin was going to be spayed anyway but i spayed her when i did because her heat cycle was due to occur right at the time we were going to compete in a tournament!

in terms of the article, i really think it has less to do with what breed you have, and the individual dog, and again - what you are capable of and so many things. i know how to shape things but for me, shaping a certain ideal behavior (standing without moving feet) can take months and still not be clear but if i just tell my dog no don't move your feet! and they get it, i will choose the second. thats MY choice. some people may choose differently - thats ok. and some people may choose not to train it at all. again ok. i think so much more goes into training than just saying how you train- what frame of mind are you training and reinforcing? how clear are your criteria? some people will break down an exercise and say today we are rewarding just the straight front, and ignore everything else. others are lumpers.

i am very much (perhaps more so than others) into the emotional aspect of what my run looks like - its why seeing how cherry shows and such bothers me so much because i want that snappy toothed bitch who barks back at me when i tell her to do something to make even a SMALL presence in the ring. even though i correct, i am very conscious of what the mindset is, and what did i reward or correct.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary View Post
Um... anyone who thinks that Border Collies, GSD, and/or Labradors are not "working breeds" has obviously never worked with them.

And the "must offer a refund for bitches that come into season after entries close" is new within the past couple of years. Used to be, they didn't have to offer a refund. Even showing them last in a class, would you like to have your intact (or heck, even neutered) male be more interested in tracking her scent around the ring than heeling in the next class? If bitches in season are allowed to foul the ring with vaginal discharge, you might as well let dogs mark in the ring and people to leave bits of bait all over the place.
training issue. why make intact bitch owners suffer my dog shouldn't put his head down to sniff PERIOD when he's working - intact bitch, squirrel, pee, you name it. i am very much for BRING ON THE DISTRACTION - for me, the harder the better. i don't want a sterile environment. intact females can show in heat last, can't they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
You can feel however you want about the breeds but the facts are they aren't a working breed and their brains function much differently. Even in doberkims videos you can see a HUGE difference in attention alone from the 2 different breeds she posted. It's just my opinion that some breeds are more respondent to positive training than others. My sheltie never needed a correction ever, her attention was always on me naturally.

A bitch doesn't have to "foul up a ring with vaginal discharge" they do have diapers and underwear for them to wear. Often times, here in CO anyways, we are ring to ring with conformation where bitches aren't wearing panties, so I don't see any difference. the odor's in the air either way. It doesn't seem to affect barn hunt, or Sch., or other sports where a dog has to do a job. It's just my opinion that AKC should either refund your money, or allow them to compete.
yes and no. i HATE using breed as an excuse. i hate excuses period. breed, rescue, age you got the dog, etc. look at the dog in front of you and train that dog. there will be limitations of what your dog has been bred to do for generations, but i have limited my dogs more than any breed or rescue situation has, by expecting that cherry wasn't capable of what chill is. cherry's SINGLE limitation is that physically she can never have the heads up position chill has - but even chill has to work HARD for that. my Facebook friends have seen the videos i have posted of working chills head position and prance for heeling.

yes breeds have differences - but you can overcome those differences. but crappy training (of any type) can take a dog with drive and have them do poorly in the ring, or take a crappy dog and cover it up and build them up. I've seen drive and biddability in dobermans just as much as i have seen some of the least drivey dogs in dobermans - same with BC's. I'm lucky to know chill's entire family and still train and show with most of his litter, and they are all very different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary View Post
Yeah, Chill is more attentive. He's got a lot more drive and overall "work ethic" than Cherry does. He's the one who thinks that heeling is a contact sport, involving teeth. Namely, his teeth.
chill's work ethic is what pulls him through - and you're totally right that's where he differs most from cherry who is the laziest being on earth. chill loves any game we do together and literally comes out of the crate ready to go - but i had that with rah too. its not unique to border collies - or even males. its certain dogs (of any breed) will do that, and certain ones will be a constant struggle. literally rah knew a dog show and when i opened up the back of the truck, he jumped out, grabbed his leash, and tugged his way into the building because he built on the energy. i never had to walk the building and let him acclimate - never had to work attention. that dog was ON the minute he arrived. looking back i could have managed him better with what i know now, but his warm ups weren't for attention. most of rah's warm ups were "remember we let go of every object we retrieve when mom says out".

we used to joke rah was 2 border collies and a maleness in one gigantic dobe body! not much about his training was doberman like - and honestly that messed me up for training berlin a LOT, who was his polar opposite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
I have to disagree that it has anything to do with breed. Any breed can be trained using any method, provided the trainer is very skilled. Working breeds can be just as successful using clicker training as other breeds. It's really just a matter of what the trainer wants to use, and how good they are at using that method.

Additionally, I think we all need to remember that our dogs decide what is aversive, not us. For example, Richter finds it quite aversive if we do the same exercise too many times in a row in agility...he's pretty sensitive, and he starts to think that he's wrong, and will begin to shut down. I have to be very careful to be really positive if we're going to be too repetitive with an exercise, because for HIM that is aversive. On the other hand, he doesn't find a prong collar aversive (note, I don't use one on him, though he has had one on at one point - he couldn't have cared less...). Many dogs find head collars quite aversive, even though they are not supposed to be. Each dog is different. For some, a verbal "uh uh" is quite aversive. For others, that's nothing. We can't generalize what's positive or what's aversive...each dog decides.
exactly - and what is aversive can also be affected by drive state, environment, etc. the lack of many dobermans ability to handle repetition drives me crazy, since i know some can - so i decided that cherry would have to work through that - and she does now, and we can do multiple reps of behaviors and she will actually build (at least at home now, which is a start).


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The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to doberkim For This Useful Post:
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