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post #1 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-09-2008, 02:05 AM Thread Starter
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Northern California UDC event?

I am asking for everyone's input. Our club would really like to hold a regional UDC event, hopefully to include both conformation and IPO trial.

The feedback I have gotten from casual contacts was not much. We are a small club and cannot afford to spend all of our resources on an event like this with no help or support.

Additionally, it would be great IMO, to get members on the west coast together to meet, get to know each other, and share ideas on how to make our region more active.

So I would like to have as much feedback as possible from everyone here who might be interested....

1) Would you travel to/attend a UDC event in Santa Rosa, California?

2) would you enter a UDC conformation event? - same location?

3) Would you enter a UDC IPO trial - same location?

4) Would you support either or both types of events with help in putting it on?

All answers appreciated! Time is short for planning this event in Spring, 2009.

Lorna O'Connor
Western Regional Director


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post #2 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-09-2008, 09:02 AM
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I'm sorry to be Debbie Downer but I just cannot support intra-breed Schutzhund. I have never felt that it is of tangible benefit to any breed but is especially limiting for a second class working breed like the Doberman. I feel that it causes kennel blindness, as it were. It's like being graded on a curve -- against all C students. The only way for breeders to improve their programs is to measure their dogs against the aggregate standard not the breed standard. It has the same deleterious effect on handlers as it does breeders, which is to say that they so often think their dogs are one thing when they are really another.

Additionally, for the mental and physical health of my dogs I only trial them so often and though Santa Rosa is a stones throw from me, I feel like it would be a wasted trial -- especially as there is likely to be only like 5 other dogs there.

Now, having said all that, I'm not a team player in the sense that I'd go way out of my way to support any particular organization unless it specifically benefited me. I am a DVG member and I fully support the AWDF but that's because their policies, especially their proposed AWD trials, fall right in line with my Schutzhund philosophies. As for the UDC, I don't feel one way or the other about them other than their mere presence in the marketplace does nothing to foster truly strong working Dobermans that can compete and win against GSD's and Mals.

However, and this is the exception to what I said above and a more direct answer to the question posed, if the trial had something in it for me, I'd be there in a heartbeat. And the only something I can think of is a killer judge that I'd give my favorite pair of shoes to trial under.

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post #3 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-09-2008, 09:12 AM
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The standard is what each individual makes of it. I prolly wouldn't travel to Nor Cal for a UDC event, but I will trial in the WDS here soon. New field, new helper = experience.


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post #4 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-09-2008, 10:01 AM
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I would travel up there!

I would for sure enter the conf.
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post #5 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-09-2008, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Cleats View Post
I'm sorry to be Debbie Downer but I just cannot support intra-breed Schutzhund. I have never felt that it is of tangible benefit to any breed but is especially limiting for a second class working breed like the Doberman. I feel that it causes kennel blindness, as it were. It's like being graded on a curve -- against all C students. The only way for breeders to improve their programs is to measure their dogs against the aggregate standard not the breed standard. It has the same deleterious effect on handlers as it does breeders, which is to say that they so often think their dogs are one thing when they are really another.

Additionally, for the mental and physical health of my dogs I only trial them so often and though Santa Rosa is a stones throw from me, I feel like it would be a wasted trial -- especially as there is likely to be only like 5 other dogs there.

Now, having said all that, I'm not a team player in the sense that I'd go way out of my way to support any particular organization unless it specifically benefited me. I am a DVG member and I fully support the AWDF but that's because their policies, especially their proposed AWD trials, fall right in line with my Schutzhund philosophies. As for the UDC, I don't feel one way or the other about them other than their mere presence in the marketplace does nothing to foster truly strong working Dobermans that can compete and win against GSD's and Mals.

However, and this is the exception to what I said above and a more direct answer to the question posed, if the trial had something in it for me, I'd be there in a heartbeat. And the only something I can think of is a killer judge that I'd give my favorite pair of shoes to trial under.
Although I don't live in the USA I couldn't agree more with your way of thinking
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post #6 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-09-2008, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Cleats View Post
I'm sorry to be Debbie Downer but I just cannot support intra-breed Schutzhund. I have never felt that it is of tangible benefit to any breed but is especially limiting for a second class working breed like the Doberman. I feel that it causes kennel blindness, as it were. It's like being graded on a curve -- against all C students. The only way for breeders to improve their programs is to measure their dogs against the aggregate standard not the breed standard. It has the same deleterious effect on handlers as it does breeders, which is to say that they so often think their dogs are one thing when they are really another.

Now, having said all that, I'm not a team player in the sense that I'd go way out of my way to support any particular organization unless it specifically benefited me. I am a DVG member and I fully support the AWDF but that's because their policies, especially their proposed AWD trials, fall right in line with my Schutzhund philosophies. As for the UDC, I don't feel one way or the other about them other than their mere presence in the marketplace does nothing to foster truly strong working Dobermans that can compete and win against GSD's and Mals.

However, and this is the exception to what I said above and a more direct answer to the question posed, if the trial had something in it for me, I'd be there in a heartbeat. And the only something I can think of is a killer judge that I'd give my favorite pair of shoes to trial under.
I understand the sentiments regarding this post, but for me the overwhelming majority of the trials we have entered we have been the only Dobermann/handler team entered. Therefore, I know how Hara stacks up against some of the best working line GSD's. So in regards to that sentiment I would not have a problem entering an intra-breed trial. If you think about it, on the other side of the coin, no Dobermann's can enter the USA or WDA nationals.

I believe this "kennel blindness" can be avoided by having excellent/tough judges involved who would not be afraid of failing the whole field if need be, by sticking to what judging standards they are supposed to uphold. Unfortunately when a tough judge is brought in the trial entries tend to be much lower than when Santa Claus visits.

That said, I would support the show and trial (of course I have to first get over my procrastination and join the UDC), if my finances allow for it at the time.
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post #7 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-09-2008, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Incredibledobe View Post
I am asking for everyone's input. Our club would really like to hold a regional UDC event, hopefully to include both conformation and IPO trial.

The feedback I have gotten from casual contacts was not much. We are a small club and cannot afford to spend all of our resources on an event like this with no help or support.

Additionally, it would be great IMO, to get members on the west coast together to meet, get to know each other, and share ideas on how to make our region more active.

So I would like to have as much feedback as possible from everyone here who might be interested....

1) Would you travel to/attend a UDC event in Santa Rosa, California?

2) would you enter a UDC conformation event? - same location?

3) Would you enter a UDC IPO trial - same location?

4) Would you support either or both types of events with help in putting it on?

All answers appreciated! Time is short for planning this event in Spring, 2009.

Lorna O'Connor
Western Regional Director
I'm in southern Ca. The answers to all your questions is No. I frequently travel that far for AKC shows, but don't really value UDC conformation titles enough to warrant the trip. I didn't even participate when the UDC National was held a few miles from my house about 7-8 years ago.

Plus one show and one show only held on the west coast would make it unlikely you could even obtain a UDC conformation title without it taking years and years (if ever).




Last edited by Murreydobe; 10-09-2008 at 11:54 AM.
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post #8 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-10-2008, 12:08 AM Thread Starter
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I'm sorry to be Debbie Downer but I just cannot support intra-breed Schutzhund. I have never felt that it is of tangible benefit to any breed but is especially limiting for a second class working breed like the Doberman. I feel that it causes kennel blindness, as it were. It's like being graded on a curve -- against all C students. The only way for breeders to improve their programs is to measure their dogs against the aggregate standard not the breed standard.
Which aggregate standard are you speaking of? Personally, I think it is very importnat to keep the breed standard in mind. It is what makes a Doberman a Doberman.

Quote:
It has the same deleterious effect on handlers as it does breeders, which is to say that they so often think their dogs are one thing when they are really another.
But only if they truly do not know how to read a dog. Everything else is just another persons opinion who may not know the dog as well. Andif they cannot read and evaluate their own dog, they are unlikely to be competing in any venue for long, if at all. A fault in temperament or conformation has a way of making itself known.

Quote:
Additionally, for the mental and physical health of my dogs I only trial them so often and though Santa Rosa is a stones throw from me, I feel like it would be a wasted trial -- especially as there is likely to be only like 5 other dogs there.
We would get 5 other dogs from our own club. Wendy S. says she can pull in 5 or 6. I think it is likely there will be way more than 5 dogs - in IPO at least,

Quote:
As for the UDC, I don't feel one way or the other about them other than their mere presence in the marketplace does nothing to foster truly strong working Dobermans that can compete and win against GSD's and Mals.
You mean like USA & AWMA also does nothing to foster this - considering our breed cannot even compete in their Nationals? Of course, it is unlikely that we will ever really know which Dobes can compete against these dogs because no one is out there doing it on a consistent basis. There are plenty of dobes out there who can compete against them - winning might be another subject, but we'll never know unless people start trying. I seem to recall a few Dobes winning DVG Nationals over the years, against GSD's, mals, GS, etc. Perhaps that is because DVG is the one venue where all can go to compete no matter the breed.
All clubs support "their" breed. UDC is no different than USA or AWMA in that regard. Every club has their own events for their own breed. Jett got her BH at the Hovawart National. If not for UDC, we would have DPCA which hasn't supported the working aspect of our breed for many year. So, I for one am glad to have a National breed club that supports all events.
As for intra breed schutzhund? Every breed has it. It's up to the handlers/owners to compete elsewhere and against different breeds if that is their desire.


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post #9 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-10-2008, 12:22 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replies. this was a learning experience for me. I had no idea there was such negativity out there toward UDC and toward holding such an event. I have seen so many people talking about the UDC National and how there is never an opportunity to trial on the west coast, that it surprised me.
To me, any opportunity to showcase our breed is a good one.
I appreciate the feedback.


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2007, 2008, 2010 ADA Siegerin
UDC/ADA CH.Tahi Reme Gloria
CGC, STT, ZTP-V1B, SchH 3, IPO 3
2010 ADA SIEGER, Incredible Courage, CGC,STT,
ZTP-V1A, IPO 3, SchH 3
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post #10 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-10-2008, 01:06 AM
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I would love to help. Please let me know what I can do.
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post #11 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-10-2008, 01:15 AM
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I am a bit surpised by all the negative feedback as well.
However, here is a different view.
I would consider traveling from the Pacific Northwest and entering conformation with my Male.

I would be doing this to support your club and the UDC. If I never get a UDC CH that is fine with me. I just appreciate the critique of my dog. Plus it would just be fun to handle him myself vs having my handler on him.
It has been probably 8 years since I did any Schutzhund but I still appreciate watching it, and I am happy that there is an active Doberman Breed club that promotes the total doberman.

I suspect there might be some interest by some people in Eastern Washington as well. I have been contacted by several well known Schutzhund people who are thinking of forming a new UDC club up here, and hosting similar events.

SO the only caveat to my attending is the timing of the event: I would have to have the funds and time to go
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post #12 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-10-2008, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosamburg View Post
I understand the sentiments regarding this post, but for me the overwhelming majority of the trials we have entered we have been the only Dobermann/handler team entered. Therefore, I know how Hara stacks up against some of the best working line GSD's. So in regards to that sentiment I would not have a problem entering an intra-breed trial. If you think about it, on the other side of the coin, no Dobermann's can enter the USA or WDA nationals.

I believe this "kennel blindness" can be avoided by having excellent/tough judges involved who would not be afraid of failing the whole field if need be, by sticking to what judging standards they are supposed to uphold. Unfortunately when a tough judge is brought in the trial entries tend to be much lower than when Santa Claus visits.

That said, I would support the show and trial (of course I have to first get over my procrastination and join the UDC), if my finances allow for it at the time.
I agree with Rosamburg, get out and trial your dobes... No excuses!

There doesnít seem to be as many out representing the breed period, let alone at UDC trials... Itís sad. Once my dog is ready to trial, Iím planning on entering him in both USA trials and at UDC events like the Nationals. When this day comes (and I hope it does next year) this will be a first time! It will be such an exciting day and a true reflection of training. I live in the Midwest, so naturally would participate if in my region.

If you have a powerful strong dog, ready for trial, I would assume as a handler you would want to show him/her off right?

My question is, maybe it has been answered before... Why does the UDC use AKC conformation judges and not adopt the DV ZTP test?
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post #13 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-10-2008, 01:04 PM
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I agree with Rosamburg, get out and trial your dobes... No excuses!
That is my opinion too!!
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post #14 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-10-2008, 02:40 PM
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We would like to come over for the conformation show with Bea, Cougar and maybe one puppy. And I would enter Cougar for IPOI.

Take care Andrea and Dobermans


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post #15 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-10-2008, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by workingk9s View Post
The standard is what each individual makes of it. I prolly wouldn't travel to Nor Cal for a UDC event, but I will trial in the WDS here soon. New field, new helper = experience.
To me the "standard" in the context being discussed is the standard of excellence in the *sport*, not just of one particular breed within that sport.

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Originally Posted by Incredibledobe View Post
Which aggregate standard are you speaking of? Personally, I think it is very importnat to keep the breed standard in mind. It is what makes a Doberman a Doberman.
I didn't pick up on any reference to the "doberman standard", rather the standard of excellence in schutzhund.


Quote:
But only if they truly do not know how to read a dog. Everything else is just another persons opinion who may not know the dog as well. Andif they cannot read and evaluate their own dog, they are unlikely to be competing in any venue for long, if at all. A fault in temperament or conformation has a way of making itself known.
I think there are quite a large number of people that don't accurately assess their dog's working abilities compared to the standard of excellence. That certainly doesn't mean their dogs might not be quite able to achieve a title, but you don't have to have a *truly* excellent dog to get a schutzhund title. There is a big difference in titles from the dogs themselves and their differing abilities, to what kind/how large of venues they trialed at, to who they trialed under....etc etc etc.


Quote:
You mean like USA & AWMA also does nothing to foster this - considering our breed cannot even compete in their Nationals?
A breed national is just that, a national for that particular breed.
My take on it is that the GSD's and Mals already ARE the "standard" of excellence that working doberman breeders should be striving for. Having our dobermans compete with them (with the exception of at a breed-specific National obviously) will make the doberman breeders/handlers work that much harder to achieve this standard of excellence. If dobermans are only competing with other dobermans the bar is considerably lowered.

Quote:
Of course, it is unlikely that we will ever really know which Dobes can compete against these dogs because no one is out there doing it on a consistent basis. There are plenty of dobes out there who can compete against them - winning might be another subject, but we'll never know unless people start trying. I seem to recall a few Dobes winning DVG Nationals over the years, against GSD'ss, mals, GS, etc. Perhaps that is because DVG is the one venue where all can go to compete no matter the breed.
And that is what I got from this discussion, that it is *beneficial* to our breed to have them compete against the best of other breeds.

Quote:
All clubs support "their" breed. UDC is no different than USA or AWMA in that regard. Every club has their own events for their own breed. Jett got her BH at the Hovawart National. If not for UDC, we would have DPCA which hasn't supported the working aspect of our breed for many year. So, I for one am glad to have a National breed club that supports all events.
As for intra breed schutzhund? Every breed has it. It's up to the handlers/owners to compete elsewhere and against different breeds if that is their desire.
I agree. I think it's great that dobermans also have their own club and I'm glad it's in place. I just would like to see more people that claim to have excellent working dobermans get out there and prove it in the *sport* in general. That means against the best GSD's and Mals. And if that isn't their goal and they are happy with only competing against other dobermans at small trials there is nothing wrong with that, but they should at least be honest with themselves and others that they are a big fish in a small pond. I myself am more of a tadpole in a puddle and I'm good with that. :biggrin55:


Last edited by Julie W; 10-10-2008 at 10:31 PM.
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post #16 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-10-2008, 10:34 PM
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well well well ... to my point of veiw i have to agree with rosamberg ...
if you love the sport youll trial at every chance you have ...
and i do belive that there should be an internationnal event open to all dogs ..then we ll see who is the best ....
i do train mainly with gsd and one mal. lol .. and the (its a dobe problem) sentece is not an excuse he fhas to perfome like every body else ....
all that to say that i ratther go into a all dog event than exclusive to one breed ..

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post #17 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-11-2008, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Incredibledobe View Post
Which aggregate standard are you speaking of? Personally, I think it is very importnat to keep the breed standard in mind. It is what makes a Doberman a Doberman.
Oh now this is absurd. We're not talking about conformation here with its variances that can go according to personal taste, we are talking about a dog sport that has points. 300 of them to be exact. If your idea of a great time is a score of 230 then fantastic, knock yourself out, but no breeder should be either aiming for nor content with mediocrity especially for a second class working breed that is trying to increase its profile within Schutzhund. "Keeping the breed standard in mind" and other such head-in-the-sand platitudes is exactly why the breed is in the boat it's in. Breeders should be looking around at the top GSDs and Mals and asking themselves how to develop Dobermans that can also score 285-90+ so that they can begin to reach the podium in all breed Schutzhund.

People talk all the time about Dobermans being so severely outnumbered, never getting the chance to compete, blah blah blah. Well why is this? Because top handlers, the ones with talent and experience, are in it to win it and they go for the dogs that are correct and strong. Frankly, no podium level handlers want Dobes for their competition dogs UNLESS they are breed fanciers or someone has paid them to do a campaign.

Quote:
But only if they truly do not know how to read a dog. Everything else is just another persons opinion who may not know the dog as well. And if they cannot read and evaluate their own dog, they are unlikely to be competing in any venue for long, if at all. A fault in temperament or conformation has a way of making itself known.
This is completely untrue. Handlers and breeders with dogs of every breed do this all the time. They look at their dogs through rose colored glasses and always seem to have an excuse as to why the dog wasn't more successful: The handler messed up, the judge was too hard on me, the tracking surface was unfair, the weather was bad, the dog was sick, the dog stepped in a puddle before he went on the field... ad nauseam, ad infinitum.


Quote:
We would get 5 other dogs from our own club. Wendy S. says she can pull in 5 or 6. I think it is likely there will be way more than 5 dogs - in IPO at least,
I wasn't being literal. It was pointing out that Doberman Schutzhund is under-attended. Even the UDC Nationals can't pull 10 dogs between all three levels.


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As for intra breed schutzhund? Every breed has it. It's up to the handlers/owners to compete elsewhere and against different breeds if that is their desire.
That is absolutely true. But the fact that the Mals and Sheps have their own breed org. sponsored Schutzhund isn't stultifying them, is it? I want to see the Doberman become a viable go-to breed for champion Schutzhund handlers. There will always be plenty of dogs bred that are quality, solid dogs that are great for beginners and those who want less dog, but the fact that there aren't any dogs for those who want to win is a sad, sad thing.
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post #18 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-11-2008, 03:07 AM
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Oh now this is absurd. We're not talking about conformation here with its variances that can go according to personal taste, we are talking about a dog sport that has points. 300 of them to be exact. If your idea of a great time is a score of 230 then fantastic, knock yourself out, but no breeder should be either aiming for nor content with mediocrity especially for a second class working breed that is trying to increase its profile within Schutzhund. "Keeping the breed standard in mind" and other such head-in-the-sand platitudes is exactly why the breed is in the boat it's in. Breeders should be looking around at the top GSDs and Mals and asking themselves how to develop Dobermans that can also score 285-90+ so that they can begin to reach the podium in all breed Schutzhund.

People talk all the time about Dobermans being so severely outnumbered, never getting the chance to compete, blah blah blah. Well why is this? Because top handlers, the ones with talent and experience, are in it to win it and they go for the dogs that are correct and strong. Frankly, no podium level handlers want Dobes for their competition dogs UNLESS they are breed fanciers or someone has paid them to do a campaign.



This is completely untrue. Handlers and breeders with dogs of every breed do this all the time. They look at their dogs through rose colored glasses and always seem to have an excuse as to why the dog wasn't more successful: The handler messed up, the judge was too hard on me, the tracking surface was unfair, the weather was bad, the dog was sick, the dog stepped in a puddle before he went on the field... ad nauseam, ad infinitum.




I wasn't being literal. It was pointing out that Doberman Schutzhund is under-attended. Even the UDC Nationals can't pull 10 dogs between all three levels.




That is absolutely true. But the fact that the Mals and Sheps have their own breed org. sponsored Schutzhund isn't stultifying them, is it? I want to see the Doberman become a viable go-to breed for champion Schutzhund handlers. There will always be plenty of dogs bred that are quality, solid dogs that are great for beginners and those who want less dog, but the fact that there aren't any dogs for those who want to win is a sad, sad thing.
I do agree with virtually everything stated here. BTW at the Mali nationals there were some GSD's and a Turveryn (sic) competing. However I do not think it would be a problem competing in a Dobe event as long as the competitors also regularly compete against the best GSD's and Mals and under tough judges, to get a realistic view of their dogs abilities. At our club trials we tend to bring in some of the best and toughest judges available. The advantage is you have a real idea where your dog stands. This also reduces the shock factor when a hard ass judge comes in at a major trial. Take for example the Canadian Nationals this year. Some people from clubs where they tend to bring in judges that have a reputation for being extremely easy to title under, and had qualified with some real high scores, had some pretty poor performances/scores.

It will be interesting to see the scores this week at the WUSV championships. I am really bummed out that my current financial situation would not allow me to be there. From the reports that have come through so far, I guess the judging is REALLY tough. So far no V scores in OB or protection. High in tracking at last report was Ralph Gilby with a 97 in tracking.

Back to topic. I agree that there really needs to be a vast improvement in the working ability of the Dobermann breed. I am of the opinion, that unless breeders are willing to sometimes take a step backward in trying to achieve excellent conformation and look first to working ability then we will NEVER get there. It leaves working breeders with a prety small gene pool to choose from also.

I also agree that many Dobermann people who think they have good working dogs, or are trying to compete or breed them really need to get out more and see what strong working dogs of other breeds look like in action. This is true of some of the Germans I met as well. If the truth be told some of the training I saw over there with some top Dobermann people (including some representing top working line kennels) was substandard compared to some of the training methods of top GSD people.

In addition there seems to be this fallacy that to have a top level working dog it has to be this maniacal, impossible to live with dog. A top working dog should have stable drives and be able to switch from that overall calm, stable temperament, to working in prey, to working in defense or fight drive instantaneously. There is no reason that these dogs should not be able to be good house pets. The idiot that put down a 2 year old working line GSD as was discussed (don't remember if it was this thread or another) here would have been an idiot owner regardless of where he got his dog. The fact that he did not contact the breeder and give him the dog back shows this. Any dog that is not trained and is allowed to run a household is going to be difficult to live with. You take a dog with more smarts and stronger drive, then of course it can exasperate the situation. The fact is we do not have many top working Dobermann's that have this stability and amazing working ability and drives. To improve the breed we have to ask ourselves why not and how can we go about achieving it.

In this I totally agree with the sentiment that White Cleats expressed here.

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post #19 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-11-2008, 05:14 AM
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...I do not think it would be a problem competing in a Dobe event as long as the competitors also regularly compete against the best GSD's and Mals and under tough judges, to get a realistic view of their dogs abilities.

Unfortunately, you and I both know that's not happening. If you look at the people who trialed at the UDC Nationals this year, none of them, save for one handler (Brett Titus), attended the DVG Nationals nor the AWDF Nationals. And the other Dobe owner who trailed at the DVGs, Catherine Lewis with her Burgstatte dog, did not attend the UDC event. And this trend is common. Not very often do you find the same people crossing over to and fro between intra-breed Schutzhund to all-breed Schutzhund.
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post #20 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-11-2008, 09:33 PM
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well well well ... to my point of veiw i have to agree with rosamberg ...
if you love the sport youll trial at every chance you have ...
and i do belive that there should be an internationnal event open to all dogs ..then we ll see who is the best ....
i do train mainly with gsd and one mal. lol .. and the (its a dobe problem) sentece is not an excuse he fhas to perfome like every body else ....
all that to say that i ratther go into a all dog event than exclusive to one breed ..
There is the FCI world championships, which is open to all breeds. However, The WUSV people do not get involved in it too much from what I understand. So I odn't think your are getting the top GSD's to compete in that.
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post #21 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-12-2008, 01:34 AM
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Cool sportsmanship in the sport....

I have to say, that when it comes to SchH and sport philosophy, I wholly appreciate and understand what White Cleats (who the heck are you anyway?), Steven and Patrick are saying. Here's the difference... You can sit there and whine about whats wrong, or you can get out and do something to help it get better.

There *ARE* folks out there training in GSD-based Clubs with their Dobes and making the most of learning from the best, regardless of what breed "the best" is working. We have seen those who are excellent examples of that, Wendy included. And heck, sure her performance could have been better, but at least Patrick & Jett showed up at Regionals, competing against the best. My own girls might have a few more years needed before they can get to the podium, but I have no doubt they will get there. We feel blessed and extremely fortunate to be training with the calibre of SchH folks that train in our Club. (some members on four world teams in the last three years, FCI/WUSV)

That said, I see absolutely NO REASON at all, NOT to support an all-Dobe event. I think that the "whats in it for me" attitude is incredibly selfish and obviously shows a lack of interest in contributing to the growth of the breed in the sport. People can complain all day about the reasons for not being motivated to support the event, but in the end, all you're doing is not supporting the growth of the breed in the sport. Heck, I'm not thrilled or happy at all about UDC's choice to use the DPCA standard rather than the FCI standard, but I sure as heck support their desire to support the TOTAL Dobe. Truth is, I will support any event that supports and promotes the breed in the sport. And when you can get a bunch of people together to help get a club off the ground, or spur interests via UDC events, to meet and greet and support each other, well, the breed can only benefit from that. It has to start somewhere... And if it means that some will trickle in from these smaller clubs and get hooked on the sport and then later seek out the opportunity to learn from the best, then thats a plus in my book. (and exactly what happened to my girls...)

To Lorna; I already sent a post to the other Forum with an offer to help. I didn't log in to post, so its waiting for Vadym to approve it. Basically, it was an offer to help in ANY way possible. Yes, we will drive. Yes, we will help. Its been many years since I've put on a show, stewarded, printed catalogs, etc., but I'm willing to do anything you need help with. The girls are experienced and adept at handling raffles, from selling tickets and collecting monies, to setting up tables and cups, to calling out the winners. They did raffles at goat shows for years before the dogs, and as you know, helped with the raffle at Regionals. They're also good when it comes to setting up a food line and serving, and while I don't cook, Emily is pretty good at it.

I'm guessing the exact time of the trial will determine whether or not the dogs will be ready for trial. Ultimately, it will be up to our Club as to whether or not the girls and their dogs are ready. Another consideration will be who the helper is. I'm thinking the later in Spring, the better the weather, the more prepared folks might be. But whether we can support with our entries, or with our sweat, one way or the other we will be there to support the breed.

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post #22 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-12-2008, 02:37 PM
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I personally think that since we DO own dobermans....we should support doberman events and not belittle them.

If we all just turn up our noses and walk the other way...what does THAT say about our commitment to the breed and improving it.

UDC is NOT perfect, I will be the first to admit that...but I DO think that they are the closest that we have to promoting the working doberman.

This almost reminds me of the people who dont vote bitching about the president.

I think that if more working people were involved, UDC could be even better. We cant bitch about what we are not willing to change.
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post #23 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-12-2008, 05:31 PM Thread Starter
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That said, I see absolutely NO REASON at all, NOT to support an all-Dobe event. I think that the "whats in it for me" attitude is incredibly selfish and obviously shows a lack of interest in contributing to the growth of the breed in the sport. People can complain all day about the reasons for not being motivated to support the event, but in the end, all you're doing is not supporting the growth of the breed in the sport. Heck, I'm not thrilled or happy at all about UDC's choice to use the DPCA standard rather than the FCI standard, but I sure as heck support their desire to support the TOTAL Dobe. Truth is, I will support any event that supports and promotes the breed in the sport. And when you can get a bunch of people together to help get a club off the ground, or spur interests via UDC events, to meet and greet and support each other, well, the breed can only benefit from that. It has to start somewhere... And if it means that some will trickle in from these smaller clubs and get hooked on the sport and then later seek out the opportunity to learn from the best, then thats a plus in my book. (and exactly what happened to my girls...)
I wish I could have said this so eloquently as you. This is what I mean. And I will add - People constantly say the working dobe is a 2nd class citizen and yet so many of the people who say that are not out trialing.
The fact is, most people who are actually out trialing are competing against GSD's and Mal's - whether we are talking about a club event or a National or Regional event. Schutzhund is mainly these other breeds so if you are going to trial, you are going to trial against them. I know that for us, the only trial we have ever competed in without other breeds, was the UDC national. Even the ADA event where Jett got her 2 had a GSD competing.
Our event will have other club members in it that have GSD's and Mal's.
The Dobe was not created as a sport dog. The sport evolved FOR GSD's. We want them to be sport dogs, we train them for it. Its what we have to prove working abilities. You can say your dog is a great PP dog, but in today's world, titles are what people want to see. I can say my male is a great PP dog, but is anyone going to say, "oh, Lorna has a male who is a great PP dog" based on that? No. So I have to trial to show that my dog has good working ability.
Dobes will always be the minority. Even the Mali is a minority when it comes to schutzhund. You don't see the top GSD handlers switching to them either. Even though a high percentage of PD's have switched to mali's for their abilities. People love what breed they love.


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Let's do it!!!

Marie, Danielle and all who expressed interest. The event is a go. Do to our limited "good" tracking conditions, I will choose the date based on the best Spring conditions. We will be shooting for sometime in April. That is when our tracking is pretty good and will not conflict with UDC Nationals.
I'll be contacting those who volunteered to help do the organizing privately. We will have a lot to do with selecting judges and getting approval.

We are leaving for the DPCA National WDS event early tomorrow morning, so I won't be able to start on this until next week at the earliest.

Thanks everyone for your interest! I am so looking forward to holding this event and getting all of our West Coast folks together to meet!

~Lorna


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post #25 of 47 (permalink) Old 10-14-2008, 07:38 PM
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As I've been chatting about this I've heard concerns voiced over too-late announcements of judges and helpers. Schedules get planned around, among other things, who's judging and catching and certainly still being in TBD mode a month before the event will mitigate entries. My constructive suggestion is to find the best judge and helper(s) you can and get it announced before the new year. I know for a fact that some possible handlers will make their decisions to go or not go based solely on that.
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