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post #801 of 830 (permalink) Old 11-14-2019, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
Sometimes we play the "it's yer choice" game with odor....one hand has a hand full of treats, one hand has the odor tin. The dog has to make the choice to keep their nose on odor in order to get the reward. It's not only a good way to build up odor obedience and staying power at odor, but it also can help work away from distractions (treats). It might be a good game for Hoss. You can then play with it on the fridge or something, just a little bit more distance. It's a nice, easy game.

Thanks ..that's a great idea. We can play that game easily.
Will start that right away ....

Hoss
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post #802 of 830 (permalink) Old 11-14-2019, 01:23 PM
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Having the treat in your mouth is a good way to have you dog focus on your face, which is why it's so popular when training fronts in obedience.

The "it's your choice" game that MC mentions is actually how my dogs were introduced to nosework. Odor, and only odor, pays.

When you are doing a search, keep your hands away from your pocket or treat pouch. If he tries mugging you, re-cue him to search. If he keeps it up, the search simply ends.

Once he does source the find, mark it, and then reach for your treats.

One exercise (sans dog) to help with getting the correct mark/reward sequence is to put out two bowls, one empty and one with treats. Set a timer for one minute, and then with your hands at your side, give your marker, then move one treat from the full bowl to the empty bowl, then put your hands back at your side. The goal is to get as many treats as possible into the other bowl while not moving your hands until after the mark.
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Last edited by Rosemary; 11-14-2019 at 01:26 PM. Reason: typo
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post #803 of 830 (permalink) Old 11-14-2019, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary View Post
Having the treat in your mouth is a good way to have you dog focus on your face, which is why it's so popular when training fronts in obedience.

The "it's your choice" game that MC mentions is actually how my dogs were introduced to nosework. Odor, and only odor, pays.

When you are doing a search, keep your hands away from your pocket or treat pouch. If he tries mugging you, re-cue him to search. If he keeps it up, the search simply ends.

Once he does source the find, mark it, and then reach for your treats.

One exercise (sans dog) to help with getting the correct mark/reward sequence is to put out two bowls, one empty and one with treats. Set a timer for one minute, and then with your hands at your side, give your marker, then move one treat from the full bowl to the empty bowl, then put your hands back at your side. The goal is to get as many treats as possible into the other bowl while not moving your hands until after the mark.
As Rosemary said, we inadvertently give our dogs LOTS of cues in scentwork. We do a lot of "bad handler" exercises in class....delaying paying them for their find..., turning the other way, walking away, all kinds of stuff. You have to have a solid foundation first, but these types of things build better odor obedience and help for trialing. Our trainer sometimes has us play a game where when our dog gets the hide we can't "pay" them until we can, for example, come up with five movie titles for comedies, or something similar. It feels like forever, but with a dog that really has a strong foundation you can build really nice obedience to odor and a willingness to wait for payment.
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post #804 of 830 (permalink) Old 11-14-2019, 03:47 PM
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Is there a treat that you girls keep in your mouth.........as soon as Hoss knows his reward is in my pocket ........he becomes so distracted............string cheese?
Hot dog?
I have a friend that will keep cooked chicken in her mouth, but we always tease her that if she ever gets to elite she's going to look like a chipmunk! (In elite trials you can have a lot of hides in a single search area).
Everyone else has given some great advice. I keep treats in my pocket with a few in my hand so I can try to reward as soon as he's on source. Every once and a great while Newtie will try to get a sniff of them in my hand at the start line and I tell him you gotta work for them! I use the phrases "ready to work?" or "let's go do some work" as part of my pre-search routine, so he knows he's not getting them until he does his job!
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post #805 of 830 (permalink) Old 11-14-2019, 03:56 PM
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I use the phrases "ready to work?" or "let's go do some work" as part of my pre-search routine, so he knows he's not getting them until he does his job!

I wish you could teach that to some of the people around here

Sorry - couldn't help myself
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post #806 of 830 (permalink) Old 11-14-2019, 04:20 PM
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Oh these are all great tips..........

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post #807 of 830 (permalink) Old 11-17-2019, 10:20 AM
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Good news we qualified is yesterdays novice A trial.....we are signed up for another one today.
Sure is a lot of waiting around in nosework!!!
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post #808 of 830 (permalink) Old 11-17-2019, 10:22 AM
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Great news from Team Hoss ! Congrats !

So Di - Thoughts ? Was it harder - easier - What - fill us in girlfriend

Give Hoss a big ole hug for me
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post #809 of 830 (permalink) Old 11-17-2019, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
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Good news we qualified is yesterdays novice A trial.....we are signed up for another one today.
Sure is a lot of waiting around in nosework!!!
That's great!

Yes, learning how to wait is a super important Nosework skill At our NW3 trials we sometimes sit and wait for hours and hours between searches


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post #810 of 830 (permalink) Old 11-17-2019, 11:49 AM
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Novice is not hard at all.
It seems everyone welcomes the beginners.
Check in time was 8:30 AM....the briefing at 9am with all entries.
Then we expected to have our Novice A inside containers at 10-11....but the judge that was scheduled with us was still judging with a different group.
So then was told would go after lunches...1 PM......nope told advanced container would go first .......
Ended up Hoss and I took a nap......we leaned up against the wall with my ballcap over my eyes.......just snoozing.......
We ended up going at 4PMish.........by then both of us had rested........my instructor was there before I went through the curtain to do our thing and she whispered to me ....remember you have 2 minutes to locate the scent......wait till your sure......and do not forget to call “alert”.......so I just walked through...did not even stop at the line be fore we started......just walked and went ....(timer starts when one of os cross the start line) . ....there were 10 boxes in a U shape.......he sniffed each one .........it was a small area .....so I just stood in the middle and let him walk clockwise to the inside of the box confirguration.......then holy moly.....one box ...he did something different .......he tapped it with his paw while looking at me.....I waited........then he seemed peeved....he stuck his nose into the closed up box..........and then he did something WONDERFUL......he Sat down! Boom.....I called ALERT.........judge shook her head yes!
So we were given a green ribbon......and a judge sheet.........we got a bad mark for the way hoss slapped the boxes......which I expected at this level .......so my goal was to find the scent .....and willing to use 2 minutes if necessary.
Hoss found it ........for some reason I find when I put my arms away .....behind my back....in pockets......etc...it stops me from pointing..........when I point Hoss thinks I am telling him where it is......so I had to break that habit.
Allowing Hoss to do all the work!
Yesterday I did no pointing.....just stood there (again the area was real small so little walking for me to do.....I think when Hoss stuck his nose in the box he was pissed at his human for not getting with the program.
So he got a little snarky.......like...fine...how about ...nose in the box and sit...now do you get it stupid human!
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Hoss

Last edited by LadyDi; 11-17-2019 at 11:52 AM.
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post #811 of 830 (permalink) Old 11-17-2019, 11:56 AM
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Oh...forgot this tip!

Once Hoss got home.....he ate......and within minutes he was asleep for the night.....
Normally wakes up at 5AM.....he slept in till 6:30 am....

Today it is cold in florida so as I prepare to go to todays trial I plan to have Hoss sport his new Meadowcat Coat!

Its beautiful! ....Will take some of her business cards with me !
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post #812 of 830 (permalink) Old 11-17-2019, 12:01 PM
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Oh......as I prepare to go to todays Trial ......Hoss will try again today.....
Its cold in Florida today...so plan to sport Hoss’s new Meadowcat Coat.........will take some of her business cards with me.
We had 350 entries yesterdays
And another 350 today......so will do some advertising for our MC!!
Thanks MC......really nice coat.....fits his good! Great pattern! He loves it!
People from all over the world.......one group from France trying to learn the mechanics of conducting these events.

Hoss
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post #813 of 830 (permalink) Old 11-17-2019, 12:06 PM
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Glad you had a great day!


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post #814 of 830 (permalink) Old 11-17-2019, 12:32 PM
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PICTURES --- PICTURES - PICTURES ! Lady Di !

And one of Hoss's new coat made by you know who !
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post #815 of 830 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 08:22 AM
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OK...on Sunday we did not qualify but I still had a great time and learned some lessons.

Same thing 10 boxes 1 scent to find (birch).
As we crossed the line the timer began.
Hoss was using his nose...he sniffed the first box, then second, then third. and on the forth box he poked his nose on the box, sat down, and looked up at me.
So I called alert.
Judge shook her head No!!
The Judge pointed to the scented box....and said to me .....in a smart azz tone...."He didn't even sniff all the boxes"!!! Female judge was a real smarty pants!
I suspose she was trying to teach me something in her own special way.
So as I thought about it........he seemed so sure.........but I think he has figured out poke the box, and sit, and get treat!
So I plan to play some of the games previously posted now that the trials are over.
Thinkin if I had it to do all over again......I would take my 2 minutes and let him investigate each box.
Then the box he seems most excited about I would return to that box and look for the same reaction......
But I was still pleased that we qualified on Saturday and was able to experience being involved with such a large event.
February 2020 we have someone called "Connie Cleveland" coming to train with dogs at our center.
Meanwhile need to get my own scent kit versus q-tips from my instructor.
Which kit do you folks recommend.

Hoss
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post #816 of 830 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 08:30 AM
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So as I thought about it........he seemed so sure.........but I think he has figured out poke the box, and sit, and get treat!

LOL Di - I think you figured that out right - they are so darn smart !

The bad thing about Dobermans --- They are so hard to stay a step ahead of !
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post #817 of 830 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
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OK...on Sunday we did not qualify but I still had a great time and learned some lessons.

Same thing 10 boxes 1 scent to find (birch).
As we crossed the line the timer began.
Hoss was using his nose...he sniffed the first box, then second, then third. and on the forth box he poked his nose on the box, sat down, and looked up at me.
So I called alert.
Judge shook her head No!!
The Judge pointed to the scented box....and said to me .....in a smart azz tone...."He didn't even sniff all the boxes"!!! Female judge was a real smarty pants!
I suspose she was trying to teach me something in her own special way.
So as I thought about it........he seemed so sure.........but I think he has figured out poke the box, and sit, and get treat!
So I plan to play some of the games previously posted now that the trials are over.
Thinkin if I had it to do all over again......I would take my 2 minutes and let him investigate each box.
Then the box he seems most excited about I would return to that box and look for the same reaction......
But I was still pleased that we qualified on Saturday and was able to experience being involved with such a large event.
February 2020 we have someone called "Connie Cleveland" coming to train with dogs at our center.
Meanwhile need to get my own scent kit versus q-tips from my instructor.
Which kit do you folks recommend.
I buy my gear from someone local that makes wonderful kits - https://www.thek9nose.com/


DSC_0133
by Shanoa Delta, on Flickr

Richter & Sypha
Glengate's Mountain Fortress CAA ORT L1V NW1 L1I L1E L1C NW2 L2V L2I ACT1 RATI SOG WAC
& Sirai's Golden Masquerade ORT NW1 L1C L1V L1E L1I L2C L2I NW2 RATI SOG WAC
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What you do makes a difference, and you have to decide what kind of difference you want to make.”
― Jane Goodall
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post #818 of 830 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 10:04 AM
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I wonder if there had been a hot box in that spot previously? AKC uses a TON of odor, as in two drops of oil per swab, so residual odor can sometimes be a problem when search areas are reused.

When you go back to training, do not do blind searches. Set your own hides so that you know for sure which one is hot (if you think any of your cold containers have been contaminated, toss them out and get new ones). If he hits on the wrong container, and insists that it's the one, just go to it, pick it up and admire it ("What a nice box! A super awesome box!"), set it back down and re-cue him to search. That acknowledges that yes, you are paying attention to what he's doing, but no, you won't pay for no odor.

And with only one hide in Novice, why would the dog need to search all the containers? All they have to do is hit on the correct one. Some dogs like to catalog and then alert, while others will beeline for the correct container without so much as glancing at the cold one.


~~The Current Hellhounds~~
Lily Dale- A Melody Unchained ETD PKD-T PKD-N ADP-L5/CH/L1(Pr)/L2(Pr)/L1 GC GPS-NST OD-WD2
CA Speed Queen Leontine Von Washateria ETD D-CRO-Preliminary PKD-T PKD-N S-ADP-L5/CH/L1(Pr)/L2(Pr)/L1 GC GPS-NST OD-WD2
~~Requiescat In Pace~~
Ilka Of Pear Orchard Cemetery BN RE CA CGC TKP ETD CRO-1 D-CRO-Preliminary NCO-1 PKD-T PKD-N S-ADP-L4 ~2009-2017~
Lucky Rat Dog CGC ~2000-2014~
“Dance as if no one who is qualified to commit you is watching!”

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post #819 of 830 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 11:17 AM
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Thanks for the tips.....
Yeah with one hide......he duplicated what he did the day before .........so I will follow your instructions.
I so much wanted to remind that judge that we are in "Novice A" ......duh!!!!
But opted to not make any fuss...didn't want to piss off a judge that I might see again someday !!! LOL
We had fun!
I was happy he qualified the day before !!!
And ......Hoss is still sleeping off all of this activity.
Nosework was great way to exhaust a Doberman.....so much activity for two days.....he is still sleepy.
Everyone loved his meadowcat coat.............that certainly keeps him warm.

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post #820 of 830 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 02:17 PM
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If he hits on the wrong container, and insists that it's the one, just go to it, pick it up and admire it ("What a nice box! A super awesome box!"), set it back down and re-cue him to search. That acknowledges that yes, you are paying attention to what he's doing, but no, you won't pay for no odor.
I have to disagree a bit with this advice. First, if you do pick up a non-odor box make sure your hands are completely free of odor. You don't want any contamination, especially since he's so young in his scent work career.
Second, he is a box crusher. I wouldn't do anything that makes a non-odor box more interesting. If he hits on the wrong box I would completely ignore it and keep moving. This is above his pay grade right now, but that's how we overcome distractors. We do not give the distractor box any attention. Even if they alert on it, we keep moving and pay BIG when they do hit that odor box.
I definitely agree with not doing any blind searches for awhile. Set him up for success and work on those foundations!
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post #821 of 830 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 03:03 PM
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I have to disagree a bit with this advice. First, if you do pick up a non-odor box make sure your hands are completely free of odor. You don't want any contamination, especially since he's so young in his scent work career.
Second, he is a box crusher. I wouldn't do anything that makes a non-odor box more interesting. If he hits on the wrong box I would completely ignore it and keep moving. This is above his pay grade right now, but that's how we overcome distractors. We do not give the distractor box any attention. Even if they alert on it, we keep moving and pay BIG when they do hit that odor box.
I definitely agree with not doing any blind searches for awhile. Set him up for success and work on those foundations!
Just going off of what a very experienced competitor and instructor has said and shown in class, and that lots of people have said helped their dogs. I've done it myself a few times. Acknowledges that you are paying attention, but aren't going to reward it.


~~The Current Hellhounds~~
Lily Dale- A Melody Unchained ETD PKD-T PKD-N ADP-L5/CH/L1(Pr)/L2(Pr)/L1 GC GPS-NST OD-WD2
CA Speed Queen Leontine Von Washateria ETD D-CRO-Preliminary PKD-T PKD-N S-ADP-L5/CH/L1(Pr)/L2(Pr)/L1 GC GPS-NST OD-WD2
~~Requiescat In Pace~~
Ilka Of Pear Orchard Cemetery BN RE CA CGC TKP ETD CRO-1 D-CRO-Preliminary NCO-1 PKD-T PKD-N S-ADP-L4 ~2009-2017~
Lucky Rat Dog CGC ~2000-2014~
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post #822 of 830 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 03:43 PM
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I would do the same as Melissa...we simply ignore incorrect responses, heavily reward correct responses. He needs more "mileage" in his training at this point, in my opinion, to understand what gets rewarded and what doesn't.


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post #823 of 830 (permalink) Old 11-26-2019, 12:14 PM
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Our club hosted Michael McManus (READY, SIT, GO - Home) for two days of seminars this weekend and he had a lot of interesting theories on games and stress and proofing. I don't think there is one right way to train nosework, but we saw some pretty awesome results from the working dogs with the handler trying to "trick" the dog into false alerting. While the dogs might have fallen for it the first round, they were all drivier and more independent in subsequent runs and were less likely to false alert and went faster to source. This also helps desensitize the dogs to the unintentional cues we give our dogs when we know where the hide is in training, and when we think we know where the hide is in trials.

We played some of the games in our nosework class yesterday, and my dogs, who did not have working spots at the seminar, both had the same favorable results. For my current and future dogs, I do plan on introducing distractors earlier and giving my dogs more time to work out complex problems instead of helping them so much. For the box crushing concern, I would just use sturdier containers like plastic or metal instead of cardboard.

As a side note, my Dane Finnegan earned his second NW3 on the 16th, here are some of his videos:

Containers - https://youtu.be/qeLA8iglasw
Interiors - https://youtu.be/tAeTCgEeO5Y, https://youtu.be/dex_RiX5KGU, https://youtu.be/OsjY-JRmff8
Exteriors - https://youtu.be/1XH8YOzUoKM
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post #824 of 830 (permalink) Old 11-26-2019, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scorning View Post
Our club hosted Michael McManus (READY, SIT, GO - Home) for two days of seminars this weekend and he had a lot of interesting theories on games and stress and proofing. I don't think there is one right way to train nosework, but we saw some pretty awesome results from the working dogs with the handler trying to "trick" the dog into false alerting. While the dogs might have fallen for it the first round, they were all drivier and more independent in subsequent runs and were less likely to false alert and went faster to source. This also helps desensitize the dogs to the unintentional cues we give our dogs when we know where the hide is in training, and when we think we know where the hide is in trials.

We played some of the games in our nosework class yesterday, and my dogs, who did not have working spots at the seminar, both had the same favorable results. For my current and future dogs, I do plan on introducing distractors earlier and giving my dogs more time to work out complex problems instead of helping them so much. For the box crushing concern, I would just use sturdier containers like plastic or metal instead of cardboard.

As a side note, my Dane Finnegan earned his second NW3 on the 16th, here are some of his videos:

Containers - https://youtu.be/qeLA8iglasw
Interiors - https://youtu.be/tAeTCgEeO5Y, https://youtu.be/dex_RiX5KGU, https://youtu.be/OsjY-JRmff8
Exteriors - https://youtu.be/1XH8YOzUoKM
Very cool! And congrats on the second NW3!


DSC_0133
by Shanoa Delta, on Flickr

Richter & Sypha
Glengate's Mountain Fortress CAA ORT L1V NW1 L1I L1E L1C NW2 L2V L2I ACT1 RATI SOG WAC
& Sirai's Golden Masquerade ORT NW1 L1C L1V L1E L1I L2C L2I NW2 RATI SOG WAC
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What you do makes a difference, and you have to decide what kind of difference you want to make.”
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post #825 of 830 (permalink) Old 11-26-2019, 01:27 PM
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Hugo completed his SWN title over the weekend with several placements from the buried and exterior searches, all q's. Since we were on a roll I decided to move him up to advanced exteriors and advanced buried for his last two searches and he q'd in both of those as well. I was surprised since we have hardly practiced on buried hides under water, but it seemed to be no different than anything else for him. The advanced exterior search was in a parking lot and of course right in the middle of our search between finding the first and second hide a big truck started backing up and beeping! We worked through it and I was very proud of him.

I'm excited to continue on to the advanced level with him coming up in February in Sanford, NC. There will be excellent, master, and detective classes which will be great to watch. I will have to pick and choose what to do with him and Kira because they are both trialing in the advanced elements. Zeus will probably come play as well, he does great at a trial environment, I just don't push it with him since he is almost 13. All the judges love him though!
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